Taser Article.

[Tgace]

It seems youre saying "stop using Tasers until they are proven 100% safe". Which, even if it were, wouldnt have made its use by those guards any less wrong. Thats my point.

Any study is going to find that ANY use of force carries a risk.

 

[PeachMonkey]

It seems youre saying "stop using Tasers until they are proven 100% safe". Which, even if it were, wouldnt have made its use by those guards any less wrong. Thats my point.

I think Amnesty's saying something like "stop using tasers until their safety parameters are better understood". I think you're actually right; no matter how safe they are, those guards shouldn't have been tasering that dude.

I just posted in the other thread (I know you couldn't have seen this when you wrote the post I quoted above) that I'm probably more in agreement with you than with Amnesty; rather than taking tasers out of use entirely, I hope that this controversy gets every LE org that uses them to study them, form a policy, and seriously train in their use, and that the independent, peer-reviewed studies that AI calls for are done.

As AI points out in their article that you cannot eliminate risk or the need for the use of force.

 

[TonyM.]

Ablolutely true about the need for force, ie. if anyone I know ever gets tasered I will hunt down and cripple the person that did it .

 

[loki09789]

I think Amnesty's saying something like "stop using tasers until their safety parameters are better understood". I think you're actually right; no matter how safe they are, those guards shouldn't have been tasering that dude.

I just posted in the other thread (I know you couldn't have seen this when you wrote the post I quoted above) that I'm probably more in agreement with you than with Amnesty; rather than taking tasers out of use entirely, I hope that this controversy gets every LE org that uses them to study them, form a policy, and seriously train in their use, and that the independent, peer-reviewed studies that AI calls for are done.

As AI points out in their article that you cannot eliminate risk or the need for the use of force.

Tasers are tools. How do the statistics of Taser related (while being used procedurally properly) compare to firearms/baton/empty hand related injury/deaths?

I think if you were to compare the stats within the same time window (instead of the longer period of firearm/baton to the shorter period of tazer), then the Tazer comes out the clear winner.

It is not the tool that is the 'evil' but the applier. In the case of tasing someone to death or misusing ANY tool....that is where legal/professional standards and practices come into play.

Now if there were a number of cases where properly used Tazer situations were leading to death and perm. injury...procedures need to be changed and reevaluated.

 

[dearnis.com]

Well, it certainly inspires trust in law enforcement when a police officer suggests that resisting arrest justifies being killed by a taser. Luckily, most LEOs don't make such flip suggestions.

No, my suggestion is that individuals are responsible for their actions. The allegedly taser-induced deaths are part of a broader phenomenon known as "excited delerium" which has been blamed for numerous in-custody deaths, usually following apprehension. This is also the reason why choke-holds/LVNR, hobbles, and other techniques are now increasingly prohibited. The mechanism is pretty much the same in all cases; the suspect panics, fights, then panics more when subdued and restrained. At some point the heart over-revs, redlines, and stops. The common factor in these cases appears to be cocaine intoxication, or a combination of cocaine and other intoxicants.
So what is the reason these suspects are dying? I am suggesting, albeit in a flippant way, that it is due to their choice of recreational drug, their choice of action brining them into conflict with society, and an expectation that the responding officer "do something."
May I ask what you would suggest?

Also, on the nonsense line about jailers using tasers to torture prisoners, you do understand that there is chip that records the usage data, and that paper markers fire every time the unit is discharged?

 

[Cruentus]

Also, on the nonsense line about jailers using tasers to torture prisoners, you do understand that there is chip that records the usage data, and that paper markers fire every time the unit is discharged?

I am not knowledgable on the issue, but I assume that officers wouldn't be allowed to taz someone who is restrained (cuffed). Is that correct?

Paul

 

[Tgace]

I am not knowledgable on the issue, but I assume that officers wouldn't be allowed to taz someone who is restrained (cuffed). Is that correct?

Paul

I would think that would depend on the policy of the dept. in question. Sometimes people in cuffs can still run, kick, bite, resist (kick out squad car windows), slam their heads into walls/dividers. Depending on how crazy they get some use of force could be necessary to restrain them even further.

 

[dearnis.com]

Right on. Handcuffs are not a cure all, they merely diminish the threat. Movies aside, think about what, in your martial careers, you have seen really skilled people do with their feet, knees, etc.

 

[Cruentus]

I would think that would depend on the policy of the dept. in question. Sometimes people in cuffs can still run, kick, bite, resist (kick out squad car windows), slam their heads into walls/dividers. Depending on how crazy they get some use of force could be necessary to restrain them even further.

Absolutely. People can do a lot of damage to themselves and others while restrained. I just wondering if it was against policy to use the tazer on a restrained person or not. I have heard that it's generally not allowed, but that could be wrong. Besides, as you say, I guess that would depend on the State and the department...

Because Tazers aren't used in MI, I am not really up on a lot of this stuff...

Paul

 

[Tgace]

Yeah..Im kind of going on what I know about LEO policy myself as we dont have them either.

 

[PeachMonkey]

May I ask what you would suggest?

Given that it is not clear whether or not a taser may exacerbate the cardiac condition you describe above, I would suggest that perhaps, as Amnesty suggests in their report, that tasering might also be a use of force that should be re-evaluated when people are restrained and freaking out.

And that perhaps not every death of a perp in police custody happens simply because that person made a "bad choice". Sometimes even someone who does cocaine and acts up, thus getting, into police custody may not end up dying if they're not abused by law enforcement. Most likely very, very rare, but possible.

Also, on the nonsense line about jailers using tasers to torture prisoners, you do understand that there is chip that records the usage data, and that paper markers fire every time the unit is discharged?

Perhaps it seems like a "nonsense line" to you, but jailers in my town killed someone. With tasers. Perhaps those markers and chips are part of the evidence that led to the indictments in question.

 

[dearnis.com]

Sometimes even someone who does cocaine and acts up, thus getting, into police custody may not end up dying if they're not abused by law enforcement

So being taken into custody is the same as being abused? Shall we just let them run amok if they won't come along when you say "pretty please?"

As an aside, have you ever been asaulted by someone strung out on crack, meth, or PCP? Just curious....

Perhaps it seems like a "nonsense line" to you, but jailers in my town killed someone. With tasers. Perhaps those markers and chips are part of the evidence that led to the indictments in question.

Which is why they are there (the markers that is).

Another aside; do they make supressors for Tasers?

 

[Cruentus]

Another aside; do they make supressors for Tasers?

Only on the ones that shoot 1500 yards...thank goodness!

:rofl:

 

[Tgace]

That wire spool is a ***** to haul around though.

 

[Cruentus]

That wire spool is a ***** to haul around though.

Yes...but I haven't had a problem with it; I just duct tape it to my calf next to my ASP Baton when I am working the mall...

:rofl:

 

[Tgace]

Man..what would we do without you out there?

 

[PeachMonkey]

So being taken into custody is the same as being abused?

Can you find a post where I said that being taken into custody equates abuse? Thanks.

In fact, I just said that abuse in custody is:

...very, very rare...

As an aside, have you ever been asaulted by someone strung out on crack, meth, or PCP? Just curious....

Nope, but my father, who was a cop and a chief of police, has. He was a policeman in the days when the common response to someone on PCP was "MagLite-time". Even the worst-case scenario with the taser is lightyears above those dark days.

Another aside; do they make supressors for Tasers?

What kind of supressor are you talking about? Since a taser's not a gun, neither a flash nor a noise supressor from a firearm would be applicable -- unless you know something I don't, as an LEO. Are you talking about suppressing the noise of firing the prongs?

 

[Tgace]

Its an "inside" thing PM...not really a question or directed at you.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Its an "inside" thing PM...not really a question or directed at you.

Right on... thanks for clearing that up.

 

[dearnis.com]

Fair answers...and yes, the last was in no way directed to you or to the thread topic.