Taser Article.

[sgtmac_46]

First OC was causing deaths and had to be taken off the streets, now those same groups are saying that OC should be used instead of Tasers. And if Im not mistaken, OC is still associated with more in-custody fatalities than the Taser ever has....

First it was "choke holds"...then it was "positional asphyxia"....then it was "OC Sprays".....then baton strikes....no wait, baton strikes came before.....ok, wait....anyway, now it's Tasers. The common denominator is all these people dying are people who came in to contact with the police because they consumed a lethal dose of cocaine and are acting out in a bizarre and violent manner due to cocaine induced psychosis. The taser, OC, baton strikes, handcuffs, etc, etc, etc didn't kill them...The dose of cocaine large enough to kill a horse killed them. Some people just never get it.

Anyone remember the large black male in Cincinnati that fought with the police in front of the burger place and died of a heart attack? Cincinnati has bought tasers after that incident because everyone threw a fit about the baton strikes. The irony is that the guy probably would have died anyway, and a taser had been present, the ACLU, NAACP and Amnest International would have been blaming the death on the taser. It's a lose lose.

Amnesty Internation and the ACLU are always willing to produce false issues for political gain and the New York Times is always willing to use that to sell false stories. Nothing new in the world. I know this, i'd rather be Tasered than Shot or Beaten with a baton anyday.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Just for the point of argument and since this is a Martial Arts board, is there any good defense against a taser (other than the same as a pistol when in striking range) ?

The short answer is, no. The taser works on the same principle as a firearm, and actually will incapacitate you faster than some gunshot wounds, even to the heart. The only faster incapacitation with a firearm is a shot to the central nervous system.

The upside as a weapon, though, is that the taser leaves evidence of it's use. Every cartridge fired leaves dozens of "AFIDS" or small identification confetti all over the ground. You can't possible pick all of them up. Each little AFID has the serial number of the taser catridge that was fired on it, and taser keeps records of every taser catridge sold and who they are sold too. There's actually considerably more oversight than with a firearm.

Having been a Taser instructor for 5 years, i'm more than willing to answer any other questions about the taser as they pertain to civilian self-defense or technical information. Of course, being a police officer, I may decide not to answer a specific question about particular police tactics as i'm sure any other police taser instructors that might be in this forum would do as well.

 

[Cruentus]

I wish Tasers were legal here in Michigan, as they seem more effective then OC.

OC spray has an effectiveness of 70%.

What is the percentage of effectiveness for Tazers, out of curiousity?

Thanks,

Paul

 

[dearnis.com]

I don't think you will see any great drive towards legalizing the taser for non-LEO use, nor am I convinced that they would make a great tool for every-day defensive carry. Same heft and displacement as a sidearm, training issues, and if you carry a firearm as well huge issues with making sure you accquire the correct weapon (note that there have been several in-custody deaths where suspects were shot by officers who, one only assumes, thought they were drawing their taser.) Like many other less lethal technologies they are perhaps best used by those who must play the "catch and release" game.

 

[Tgace]

I would have to agree. The Taser isnt so much a "defensive" weapon as an arrest tool.

 

[Cruentus]

Sweet guys, but here in Michigan departments do not currently allow use of Tazers or stun guns as an arrest tool, as possession or sales of of stun guns or tazers are illegal. So I am talking about LEO use.

I think that Michigan should rethink the stun gun/Tazer laws, and departments should rethink the use of these tools, because I think that they can be an effective arrest tool; possibly more effective then OC.

That said, any word on that statistic for percentage of effectiveness? I've heard not as much as 80% for tazers as compared to a 70% success rate of OC...

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

Also, as to tazer deaths compared to OC...

Groups like Amnesty International and others have a number of stats and reports of tazer related deaths. The reason one would die from Tazer use is because the shock could trigger heart failure on someone who is aggitated, under high stress, has a health problem, or has an artifically elevated heart rate(drug use). The arguement against tazer use is that most likely a resisting perp or criminal will be under high stress or on drugs, and therefore is under risk of death if a tazer is used.

Yet, I would still like to see a percentage of deaths related to Tazer use from a reliable source before I could weigh the significance of that arguement.

As to OC or "Pepper" Spray, Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) is an inflammatory agent comprised of natural oils and several varieties of red pepper. Because OC is an inflammatory, it causes the respitory tract to become inflamed, mucus membranes to be swelled, and vision to be impaired; it reduces breathing to "life support only." This means that it does not rely on "pain compliance" to be effective, as the inflammation will be the natural physical response for most people. This also means that because OC is made from natural oils and peppers that some of us use every day, the lethality of OC is almost nil. This means that OC as an extremely effective tool for stopping or reducing a threat (again, 70% success rate), while minimizing the risk of liability.

I have not heard of ANY deaths from OC, yet some of you LEO here may have heard differently. What I would like to see is some real stats rather then anecdotal evidence to come to an informed conclusion. As it stands so far, it would appear that Tazers have a higher rate of effectiveness, but maybe only by a few percentage points, and that the chances of death are far greater with tazers then OC. So the question I have is does the reward outwiegh the risk? I need hard evidence to determine that.

Side Note: Many of you may know this, but for those of you who don't, OC Spray is different the "Tear Gas" or what people commonly know from this company name as "MACE" who produced spray versions of tear gas. Unlike OC, Tear Gas is an irritant and therefore relies on "pain compliance" to work. It is also artificial, unlike OC which is natural, and can therefore cause death if too much is infected in the lungs. This means that more deaths have occured from tear gas or "Mace" from OC spray, and this also means that "Mace" is less effective then OC due to its reliance on pain compliance. Many people get the two confused, and attribute "Mace" deaths or ineffectiveness to OC, when this is innacurate.

Paul

 

[Tgace]

People hit with OC can still fight......

 

[Tgace]

OC in-custody death cases sound almost exactly like Taser in-custody deaths...hard to get any solid proof either way, and death vs. number of successful uses shows that they are safer than almost any other conventional means...


OC in-custody deaths:

http://www.zarc.com/english/other_sprays/reports/journal_forensic_med_oc_death.html

http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles1/nij/195739.txt

http://hazard.com/library/topics/Chemical_Safety/Pepper_Mace

Groups who oppose pepper sprays: Including the ACLU (go figure)

http://mediafilter.net/caq/CAQ56pepper.html

http://www.aclu-sc.org/attachments/p/Pepper_Spray_New_Questions.pdf

http://treesit.org/havc/campaigns_videos/fire_in_the_eyes/Pepper_facts.html

 

[Cruentus]

Also, any word on the "Stinger" system vs. "Tazer" Intl?

Anyone have experience with "Stinger"? Any word on this?

I guess "Stinger Systems" claim to have products with better range and to be less lethal then "Tazer Intl' " products. Tazer Intl' says that these claims are false, and I guess filed a law suit against Stinger on Dec. 04' right before the new year.

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

OC in-custody death cases sound almost exactly like Taser in-custody deaths...hard to get any solid proof either way, and death vs. number of successful uses shows that they are safer than almost any other conventional means...

Thanks for the links Tom. Yea, that figures too...most of the opposition only having shady anecdotal evidence at best.

And sometimes I think that those jackwads at the ACLU would rather have a criminal beat a cop to death until they tire out and allow the arrest to happend as an acceptable means of force rather then (gasp) actually allow the LEO to use any reasonable means to do their jobs; cause god forbid that those poor unfortunate violent criminals get hurt a little when they are going on their tyraid's and endangering everyone else...

 

[Tgace]

From POLICE magazine Feb. 2005 Vol 29, No. 2

Do Tasers Kill?

The Taser is now the less-lethal weapon of choice for American cops. Thousands of people have been stunned by them, and approximately 70 have died in police custody.

Which begs the question: Do Tasers kill?

Taser International has long contended that the energy level discharged and its duration make its Taser weapons absolutely safe. The Arizona-based company offers as evidence of its claim experiments by company medical director Dr. Robert Stratbucker, a noted electro-cardiologist, and records of thousands of police officers who have been shot with Tasers in training.

Taser opponents say the anecdotal records of the effects of Tasers on healthy police officers do nothing to prove that the Taser effect is not lethal to crackheads. They also slam Stratbucker's research because the doctor is compensated by Taser International, which they see as a conflict of interest.
Both the American Civil Liberties Union and Amnesty International are calling for a moratorium on Taser use by law enforcement officers until the conductive weapons are proven to be "non-lethal."

Bill Lewinski, executive director of the Force Science Research Center at Minnesota State University-Mankato, says that's a really bad idea. Even a temporary ban on the use of Tasers "would literally create a catastrophe for peace officers. Lawsuits would increase, officer injuries would increase, subject injuries would increase—all guaranteed.''

Both scientific and forensic evidence can be used to argue that a Taser moratorium is unnecessary.

A panel of physicians and scientists assembled by the Orange County (Fla.) Sheriff's Office testified last summer that Tasers are in fact non-lethal. They also reported that the predominant cause of in-custody deaths involving Tasers is excited delirium, a condition in which all of the body's systems become hyperexcited to the point that they start to fail. Excited delirium is most commonly triggered by cocaine overdose.

Dr. Daniel F. Brennan, an emergency physician at the Or-lando Regional Medical Center, says that it takes a much more powerful electric discharge than that of a Taser to effect the rhythm of a person's heart through the skin. "The energy of the Taser is about 1.6 joules, the exo-defibrillators we use in the EMS are a minimum of 50 joules."

An article published in the peer-reviewed medical journal PACE (Pacing and Clinical Electrophysiology) details the results of an experiment that sought to determine what level of laser energy would trigger ventricular fibrillation (a dangerous heart arrhythmia) in pigs weighing about 70 pounds to about 260 pounds.

In that experiment, a customized neuromuscular incapacitation (NMI) device with the same waveform as the Taser X26 was connected to the pigs' chests. (An actual X26 could not be used because the researchers needed a device that could generate more power than a commercially available Taser.) The researchers concluded, "the minimum discharge that would cause fibrillation was approximately 15 times the charge of the standard [taser] pulse when used on the smallest pig."

The PACE study also tracked the circulatory stability of the animals after repeated shocks from the NMI device. It concluded that police Tasers could be used multiple times on subjects without affecting their circulation.

Taser opponents will likely dispute the findings of the PACE article because of the participation of Taser International Medical Director Dr. Robert Stratbucker. But it should be noted that Stratbucker worked with three other scientists on the PACE experiments.

It should also be noted that the same advocates and activists who now blame Tasers for in-custody deaths previously made similar arguments against OC spray. Ironically, they now say that OC spray should be used instead of Tasers.

Police and emergency medical personnel believe that Tasers have just become the latest convenient scapegoat for in-custody deaths. Dr. Jan Qaravaglia, Orange-Osceo-la (Fla.) medical examiner, testified during the Orange County task force presentation that his jurisdiction has had four in-custody deaths involving Tasers since 2000 and that in all four cases the deaths were caused by drug intoxication and excited delirium. In comparison, according to Garavaglia, San Antonio had 15 in-custody deaths from 1997 to 2003, with 14 of them caused by drug intoxication and excited delirium.

"There was no Taser involvement in any of the [San Antonio] cases because they don't use Tasers there," Garavaglia explains. His conclusion: Drug users die in custody from excited delirium without Tasers at the same rate they do with Tasers. "They're dying either way," he says.
—David Griffith

 

[Tgace]

The Stinger is pretty much the same technology..I dont know how they can make any "less lethality" claims than Taser.

Other than the fact that they havent been on the market as long and havent accrued the same number of uses/deaths...

 

[Tgace]

Thanks for the links Tom. Yea, that figures too...most of the opposition only having shady anecdotal evidence at best.

And sometimes I think that those jackwads at the ACLU would rather have a criminal beat a cop to death until they tire out and allow the arrest to happend as an acceptable means of force rather then (gasp) actually allow the LEO to use any reasonable means to do their jobs; cause god forbid that those poor unfortunate violent criminals get hurt a little when they are going on their tyraid's and endangering everyone else...

I wonder what exactly the ACLU wants to call "reasonable"? Do they want to go back to the "low tec" 70's and allow us to use saps and sap gloves again?? Not that that dosent have its own appeal at times. This technology has probably saved more lives on each side than they have taken. There is NO 100% "safe" method of using force on somebody, thats just the way it is....

Just for clarification...I dont carry a Taser. Powers that be appear to be considering it though. Not looking forward to the training...:erg:

 

[Tgace]

http://www.taser.com/law/videos.htm

The Taser vs. OC is most interesting. The street use clips show their utility.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I wish Tasers were legal here in Michigan, as they seem more effective then OC.

OC spray has an effectiveness of 70%.

What is the percentage of effectiveness for Tazers, out of curiousity?

Thanks,

Paul

Under controlled conditions, 99% plus. In the real world, more like 95%. The 5% failure rate isn't people who are immune to the Taser, but environmental and equipment malfunctions such as dead batteries, one dart hits, thick clothing, operator error, low muscle group areas, etc.

 

[Tgace]

http://home.earthlink.net/~gregmeyer/injury.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~gregmeyer/articles/update.html

 

[sgtmac_46]

Also, as to tazer deaths compared to OC...

Groups like Amnesty International and others have a number of stats and reports of tazer related deaths. The reason one would die from Tazer use is because the shock could trigger heart failure on someone who is aggitated, under high stress, has a health problem, or has an artifically elevated heart rate(drug use). The arguement against tazer use is that most likely a resisting perp or criminal will be under high stress or on drugs, and therefore is under risk of death if a tazer is used.

Yet, I would still like to see a percentage of deaths related to Tazer use from a reliable source before I could weigh the significance of that arguement.

As to OC or "Pepper" Spray, Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) is an inflammatory agent comprised of natural oils and several varieties of red pepper. Because OC is an inflammatory, it causes the respitory tract to become inflamed, mucus membranes to be swelled, and vision to be impaired; it reduces breathing to "life support only." This means that it does not rely on "pain compliance" to be effective, as the inflammation will be the natural physical response for most people. This also means that because OC is made from natural oils and peppers that some of us use every day, the lethality of OC is almost nil. This means that OC as an extremely effective tool for stopping or reducing a threat (again, 70% success rate), while minimizing the risk of liability.

I have not heard of ANY deaths from OC, yet some of you LEO here may have heard differently. What I would like to see is some real stats rather then anecdotal evidence to come to an informed conclusion. As it stands so far, it would appear that Tazers have a higher rate of effectiveness, but maybe only by a few percentage points, and that the chances of death are far greater with tazers then OC. So the question I have is does the reward outwiegh the risk? I need hard evidence to determine that.

Side Note: Many of you may know this, but for those of you who don't, OC Spray is different the "Tear Gas" or what people commonly know from this company name as "MACE" who produced spray versions of tear gas. Unlike OC, Tear Gas is an irritant and therefore relies on "pain compliance" to work. It is also artificial, unlike OC which is natural, and can therefore cause death if too much is infected in the lungs. This means that more deaths have occured from tear gas or "Mace" from OC spray, and this also means that "Mace" is less effective then OC due to its reliance on pain compliance. Many people get the two confused, and attribute "Mace" deaths or ineffectiveness to OC, when this is innacurate.

Paul

In custody death rates from OC exposure is on par with those of the Taser, and other aggressive uses of physical force. The in-custody deaths in all of the above cases have resulted for exhertion on the part of the suspect, not from electrical stimulation. A University of Missouri study revealed that direct current applied to a pigs heart did not adversly alter heart rhythms, even when drugs such as epinepherine were administered that made the heart more susceptible to rhythm changes.

The numbers that amnesty internation (mis)quotes are actually consistent with the number of over dose deaths. It's not a coincidence that people under the influence of large, potential lethal quantities of cocaine or other hyper-stimulants, might come in contact with police and be required to be tasered, OC'd, or otherwise.

As for OC death claims, you have to go back to the last 10 or 15 years. Whenever OC was relatively new, Amnesty International was making the same claims for the same reason. Now the Taser is the issue Du Jour, so you won't hear about OC in-custody deaths, because it's not en vogue anymore.

One of the largest arguments against the Taser causing any of these incustody deaths is that those subjects who died, did not die while the Taser current was being administered, they died several minutes later after being taken in to custody. The idea that electricity lingers in the body and kills you at a later date is asinine. If it were to cause death, it would cause it while the current is not being administered, electricity does not linger in the body. Exhertion coupled with use of hyper-simulants caused every single death involving tasers, oc and others.

As for Amnesty Internationals motive, it's very simple. They don't want effective law enforcement. They will never state so, because they know it will expose them for what they are. They hate the taser, not because it is dangerous, but because it is safe and effective. There are members of Amnesty International that have some bizarre dream of some anarchist uprising in the united states, and they don't want this kind of device in the hands of police. Have you ever noticed that protestors seem to try and provoke the police in to violent action. That's so they can paint the police as violent thugs whenever they get themselves beaten with clubs. The taser doesn't cause serious injury, and doesn't look excessive on video. Therefore, the radical left views it as a threat to their use of this kind of publicity. The police can simply zap and arrest violent protestors without injury, and without the film of a "thug cop" beating some poor protestor, then they lose publicity. You might think i'm paranoid, but actually listen to these guys. They like it when some cop has to shoot someone, and they get to rant and rave about racist, violent cops. They hate the taser because, even on video, it doesn't look excessive.

As for the ACLU, that's clear as well. The ACLU is ran by trial lawyers. Trial lawyers hate the taser because the less clients killed and injured, the less lawsuits against police departments, the less money in their pockets.

The motives of these two groups are despicable on this issue. They determined to invent an issue where none exists. The Taser is a wonderful, and I can say having been hit several times with it myself, that it's both extremely effective and it causes ZERO long term side effects.

The best argument for taser use is that in Orange Co. Florida, in one year alone injuries to Deputies dropped 80%, and injuries to suspects themselves dropped 67%. Where's the down side? Orange Co. Florida sheriff's department went 14 months without a single use of a firearm, a significant drop directly attributed to the taser. The taser has saved hundreds of lives, thousands of injuries. Yet, the ACLU and Amnesty International want to argue over the cocaine intoxication deaths of 60 people who died because of their drug use. Bizarre.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I wonder what exactly the ACLU wants to call "reasonable"? Do they want to go back to the "low tec" 70's and allow us to use saps and sap gloves again?? Not that that dosent have its own appeal at times. This technology has probably saved more lives on each side than they have taken. There is NO 100% "safe" method of using force on somebody, thats just the way it is....

Just for clarification...I dont carry a Taser. Powers that be appear to be considering it though. Not looking forward to the training...:erg:

Don't worry about the taser training. It's really not that bad. It hurts for about 5 seconds like nothing you've ever felt, but when it's over, it's over. Unlike OC training, the taser ride ends, you get off and feel fine. There's no after effect. We shock each other for fun sometimes (I know, it's a sick, twisted definition of fun). That's why I laugh at the ACLU and Amnesty Internation talking about the "Dreaded Taser". I've got alligator clip demonstration cartridges, and sometimes we just shock each other.

As for Stinger systems, i'm a little dubious. I've been reading their press stuff, and the only thing it seems they've improved on the Taser is their catridges. The power unit actually seems less powerful than the Taser, though I can't be sure because they don't want to talk about it. I'll have to get a T&E copy and me and my buddies will shock each other with it to find out how powerful it is. I'll let you guys know.

 

[James Patrick]

This thread is an interesting read. I don't know much about Tasers just because there not used in my state legally.

I don't think anyone could dispute that tasers are more effective then OC, especially not after seeing those videos. I don't think anyone is disputing that. I would like to see some hard stats on the % of failure for tasers and on the actual number of deaths attributed to tasers. It's too bad that so many of the stats on the number of deaths are biased - put out by groups with agenda's.

James