Taoist Tai Chi versus Traditional Yang

[East Winds]

DaPoets,

Yes, if you go into any of the medical databases like Medline, you will find hundreds of papers published in Medical Journals on the efficacy of Taiji. However you will also find that generally they will refer to "mainline" taiji and not Taoist taiji in particular. In fact I am unaware of any specific medical study where the basis of the study was Taoist Taiji. If there is such a study I would be very interested.

Like Myrmidon, anytime I think I have a different point of view from my teacher, like Myrmidon's teacher he says lets test it. Then he proceeds to demonstrate where my thinking is flawed and why he is teaching me and not the other way about. Why does that happen? Because he follows without deviation, Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences. Those very essences that Mr. Moy discarded in favour of his five principles.

Very best wishes

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Thought this may help
Taoist tai chi society

Here is Lung men sect of Tai chi

Wudang Tai chi

Chen Xiaowang

Tung Hu Ling

I wanted to show how differences between Taoist Tai chi society and the Wudang and Lung men sects.
I wanted to show the evolution from the temples to Chen to Yang in which the principle still remains which can not be seen in the Taoist tai chi pictures or the video clip.

 

[Myrmidon]

Some more Chen style by Tian Xiuzhen, 18th generation... disciple of Chen Fake

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGWJxJndw6o&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAx1xHpJpW0&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maPk6w8Yei0&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpiGVC402-U&feature

 

[Myrmidon]

Wu Tunan... 101 years old when this was filmed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVfkZ7YVrpg&NR=1

 

[Myrmidon]

More Yang style taijiquan...

Liu Gaoming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8&feature

 

[DaPoets]

Thought this may help
Taoist tai chi society

They are probably just a couple weeks into their beginners class...

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

They are probably just a couple weeks into their beginners class...

Yes but their back posture is the same as all the pictures and as you say... compared to the other Taoist sects who practice Tai chi their backs do not bend like the video or the pictures.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thought this may help
Taoist tai chi society

Why do they lock thier elbows? I have see many examples of TTCS taiji and I have seen a lot of locked elbows

Here is Lung men sect of Tai chi

Wudang Tai chi

Chen Xiaowang

Tung Hu Ling

I wanted to show how differences between Taoist Tai chi society and the Wudang and Lung men sects.
I wanted to show the evolution from the temples to Chen to Yang in which the principle still remains which can not be seen in the Taoist tai chi pictures or the video clip.

Thanks, those were great and I never tire of watching Chen Xiaowang and Tung Hu Ling.

As I have said in other threads, TTCS is doing modified Yang Style but Lungmen and Wudang are doing Taoist Taiji

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Xue, The Lung men tai chi form is said to come from Wudang.
I see many similarites with the Wudang and Lung men forms.
Another note I see is the stretching involve.

 

[jamelser]

Thought this may help
Taoist tai chi society

Here is Lung men sect of Tai chi

Wudang Tai chi

Chen Xiaowang

Tung Hu Ling

I wanted to show how differences between Taoist Tai chi society and the Wudang and Lung men sects.
I wanted to show the evolution from the temples to Chen to Yang in which the principle still remains which can not be seen in the Taoist tai chi pictures or the video clip.

Yes Very nice. Thanks.
I can understand better, the context from where a portion of this discussion is coming from and would of course agree that all the posts from the TTCS do not show this kind of movement.

I can easily recognize the openness, connectedness and turning of the spine, the buoyancy from the tendons, the expression of power. I was taught much of this, in the TTCS, by a few select instructors (one of them was a 76 year old grandmonther. She beat the living daylights out of me. he he!).

As I reflect back, I remember now that I was often taught these aspects in a more solitary setting. These aspects were never taught in a full group atmosphere. And whenever I tried to show this to my peers, I was often discouraged not to. Hummmmm........that could explain a few things.


Here are a few of my thoughts as I reflected last night upon this discussion.

Is TTCS tai chi better then others......IMO No
Is is a modified Yang Form.....Yes
Does it have something to offer.....Yes
Can someone advance and develop.....Yes
Does the TTCS organization provide a global opportunity to experience this art...yes
Does it offer a full picture of what tai chi has to offer........No I don't think so.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of questions, that I would still need time to think on

Does it maintain traditional principles......Ooooh, I don't know. Definately not in the general form, yet there are things I was trained in that look an awful lot like what is being presented.

Is TTCS tai chi and the organization revolutionary.......Not sure. Is the presentation (how the arts are offered to the public) revolutionary........In this century.......maybe........in this hemisphere.....Yes....in other parts of the world.....No.


I think the general form has been sacrificed through standardization so as to maintain greater accessibility, longevity and sustainability of the organization as a whole. I know that the focus of instruction shifted several times when I was there because of government and internal pressure.


J

 

[jamelser]

Why do they lock thier elbows? I have see many examples of TTCS taiji and I have seen a lot of locked elbows

One of the main reasons is to pull the scapula and surrounding tissue down and around the rib cage. Rather than the pulling towards the head when in that forward position. In those particular pics, the elbows are too locked to facilitate that. The arms should be straight, but the elbows should not be locked. they should be open a bit. Most people in TTCS don't get that. Hence if you look at that vid, her shoulders are by her ears.

As well, the elbows would be pointed to the ground with the fingers pointed up to help facilitate that pulling.

If the elbows are locked, a forward push to the hands, would put the force to the shoulders. If the elbows are open, the force would be placed past the shoulders and somewhere in the torso, depending on the tightness of the practitioner and how far forward they would be leaning.


J

 

[DaPoets]

correct, the fingers should be upward and the elbows pointing down and not locked. But as I said they are clearly only a few weeks into their beginner class in that video.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Are there any pictures of the Taoist Taiji version of Snake Creeps down?

Pictures of -
Snake Creeps Down from the Traditional Yang Style Slow Set

 

[DaPoets]

TTCS Snake Creep Down looks a lot like this actually...

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for the comparative photographs of Snake Creeps Down. My own personal opinion is that the best posture is shown by Dong Zeng Chen.
(Of course, having said that, they are all superb!!! Its like malt whisky there are no bad ones, its all grades of goodness):rofl:

Very best wishes

 

[PHElwood]

I've been reading through this discussion, having just joined the forum. I had originally tried the rec.martial-arts forum on google, but found it disappointing (too much insulting back and forth). However, there was one member there, who had an interesting perspective on Taoist Tai Chi, and suggested the reason that the single whip and other moves do not look the same (as in more traditional styles) is that Lok Hup Ba Fa principles of form are being applied in the Taoist Tai Chi set.

~LPE

 

[mograph]

I had originally tried the rec.martial-arts forum on google, but found it disappointing (too much insulting back and forth). However, there was one member there, who had an interesting perspective on Taoist Tai Chi, and suggested the reason that the single whip and other moves do not look the same (as in more traditional styles) is that Lok Hup Ba Fa principles of form are being applied in the Taoist Tai Chi set.
~LPE

If that's so, could anyone describe the Lok Hup principles which are being applied?

 

[oxy]

If that's so, could anyone describe the Lok Hup principles which are being applied?

As someone who does Lok Hup, it's hard to apply those principles to Taiji when they are in themselves incorrect...

A whole bunch of the Taoist Tai Chi LHBF stuff isn't LHBF at all.

Most LHBF principles are related to movement and not static postures.

CMC Taiji is a lot closer to any attempt to combine the Taiji form with LHBF principles than Taoist Tai Chi.

 

[mograph]

Sorry ... "CMC"? Cheng Man-Ching?

... and do you know where I could find a good guide to LHBF principles? I haven't found a lot of material on LHBF.

 

[oxy]

Sorry ... "CMC"? Cheng Man-Ching?

Yes.

... and do you know where I could find a good guide to LHBF principles? I haven't found a lot of material on LHBF.

There's a translation of the Five Word Poem (as in, every line has five words) by Paul Dillon. I don't know how accurate it is. There's a John Chung Li translation which is terrible.

I posted the Chinese text of the Five Word Poem in an old LHBF thread and I've been trying to find translators.

The legitimacy of the Five Word Poem is not clear, but the LHBF we see today is certainly developed around it. The Five Word Poem, even if illegitimate, does contain principles found in other arts like Xingyi and Bagua so it's not complete bunk.