Taoist Tai Chi versus Traditional Yang

[DaPoets]

People actually do get great bennifits from doing Taoist Tai Chi. So much so that we hold special "Health Recovery" Classes for specialized instruction for those with some type of aliment. Through Master Moy's extensive understanding of Taoist healing arts, Yang style taijiquan, qigong, and other arts, I have to belive that he knew what he was doing when paying attention to qi flow... I'm sure he learned something from growing up in a Taoist Monistarty.

 

[DaPoets]

More pics here: http://www.taoist.org/content/standard.asp?name=AwarenessDay2006Gallery
http://www.taoist.org/content/standard.asp?name=AwarenessDay2004Gallery

 

[DaPoets]

This is a shot of a group doing Lok Hup Ba Fa

 

[DaPoets]

Here is a small picture of a couple people doing single whip in Orangeville...

 

[Myrmidon]

They're group shots, but they might have to do, until a shot of Mr. Moy comes along. Here's single whip (also here), brush knee, and grasp bird's tail (looks like "press").

More are out there.

Thanks for the photos. I can observe that the postures are different from what I have seen in traditional Yang style. The bottom line would be how are these modified Yang postures better than the traditional Yang postures for health purposes? In these photos it is evident that the kua is closed... how is this better for health?

 

[bigfootsquatch]

Thanks for the photos. I can observe that the postures are different from what I have seen in traditional Yang style. The bottom line would be how are these modified Yang postures better than the traditional Yang postures for health purposes? In these photos it is evident that the kua is closed... how is this better for health?

Exactly, I see no reason why(or how) anyone would modify a style for purely health purposes when the original style had health AND martial applications built in.

NOW, I could understand if the creator had the experience the Yang Lu Chan(chen to yang) or Cheng Fu(old frame to big frame) had....but I seriously doubt he did.

At any rate, I haven't the slightest bit of knowledge of Taoist Tai Chi, so I will not bash it till I try it....but that single whip group picture was definitely full of bad postures, regardless of whether it was tai chi, qigong, or even an external style :asian:

 

[Formosa Neijia]

People actually do get great bennifits from doing Taoist Tai Chi. ... I have to belive that he knew what he was doing when paying attention to qi flow... I'm sure he learned something from growing up in a Taoist Monistarty.

Judging from the pics you posted, I say he wasted his time completely if those pics are supposed to show the results of what he learned.

Any time people get out of their chairs to do ANYTHING, they will receive a small health benefit. Walking, playing with the kids, step aerobics -- it doesn't matter. The health benefit of general movement is NOT the same things as the health that CORRECT taiji practice will bring.

Most of the obese people in your photos will benefit from doing anything, period. That doesn't by a long stretch make it correct taiji.

 

[jamelser]

Hi All,

So now that all the nitty gritty conversation is out of the way, maybe the first question that should be debated is ......What are the improvements individuals have found/sees/gets, when practicing your style of tai chi.

Not who is correct, because that leads to disharmony. Ie....can take a kick to the abdomin......can you do that (*smiling here*)

More seriously now, discussions on generating power from the spine. Expressing applications of force through either, the bones or the tendons or using the internal fluids as a pump. Or maybe it could be loss of pressure points through the training, the body becomes like a baby. Or creating heat in the belly on demand. Or get more esoteric and express the flow of energy through the macrocosmic unit, in both directions.

Or maybe some of the parameters could be based simple on....
Focus / concentration/ intention
Flexibility
Control
Power
Movement
Strength

And from there we could discuss the relative context or degrees of separation.

I think it is really naive to take a snap shot and make a judgement call on that. Context, perspective, application when reviewing a picture needs to be in place.
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But cause I am sucker for punishment.I will comment on the picture in post #42 of the man in glasses and funky brown pants. I expect a similar post for comparision.

Feet in line with each other, Back leg straight, front knee bend, slight bend in torso, pelvis turned. EXPLANATION - Pelvis turned works on the larger, outside muscles and tendons. The big wide turns trains the body to understand turning into a joint as well as strengthens both legs through the turn. Keeping the back leg straight allows a completion for the muscle to relax and have the weight in the front (drop into hip) That last completion is as well introducing the practitioner to resting in the bones (back leg feels it first). The bend in the torso is to help start the gentle stretch in the spine, with a desired goal to access the sacral joint and tail bone. While doing these movements as a progressive unit it helps to change the physiology of the body more in a systematic way.

I could talk on all aspects more but I think, I will take the turning of the hips as my focus. Through development, the muscles, tendons change and hopefully the practitioner is ready to do other things. Maybe they will be taught to step shorter or longer. Stretch further (really lean), or not at all. Challenging not just the physical body but the spacial placement of the body with itself. (These gross exaggerated movements I would suspect are the bane of peoples complaints with in the tai chi community). The turning becomes less exaggerated and more continous at both ends of the turn. Usually being understood in the hips then with in the spine, then eventually in the tail bone. Reflection is place on how these movements activate the body. Ie.....why does my kidney fell like it is moving, etc. Weight transfer, rising, falling all become a part of the turning over time until it becomes natural.

As the body is tempered the form can get radicalized again to an almost no external movement, form, where all movement is expressed internally, through the spine. Back is pretty much upright, weight shift in legs is constant throughout the whole form. A natural spiral from foot to head is produced but for the outside viewer, it looks like a slow walk in the wind.


Anways, I want to write a bit more, but I am tired and have to get the kids up tomorrow for school. Look forward to a response. And sorry for being long winded

Thanks,
Regards,
J

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Seeing the picture and mechanics you do not have to be a Tai chi player to see obvious bad posture.

More seriously now, discussions on generating power from the spine. Expressing applications of force through either, the bones or the tendons or using the internal fluids as a pump. Or maybe it could be loss of pressure points through the training, the body becomes like a baby. Or creating heat in the belly on demand. Or get more esoteric and express the flow of energy through the macrocosmic unit, in both directions.

How can you achieve this if you have bad posture or do not follow the principles of Song(relax) and Chen(sink)? How can you generate any energy? Clearly the pictures show tension in the shoulders and not a firm root. This by no means speaks for all Taoist Tai chi society but clearly we can see from the picture Tai chi that is not a good representation.

 

[DaPoets]

I'm not sure what you mean about "bad posture". Granted when you have group shots of people having a range of experience you can't generalize much from that but at least from my experience, my shoulders are always relaxed, my root is very firm shifting weight from leg to leg. there are plent of up down motions when about to do a new step and this is there to help work the spine (sort of like a one legged squat). They are light steps, then the weight is slowly shifted. For me I am at the point of feeling the ground at my bubbling springs and understanding the push and receptive force/pressure during weight transfer and movement.

Again group shots are a good measure of what is kind of going on, but who knows the level of understanding of those in the shots...

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Again group shots are a good measure of what is kind of going on, but who knows the level of understanding of those in the shots...

I think this is what so many people are trying to help you see. The level of understanding of those in the groups shots is obvious -- there is NO understanding evident. This seems obvious to everyone else other than you. Why is that?

Yes, group shots are a very good measure of that is practiced by TTCS. And it's terrible.

You really have no excuse. There is far, far too much information out there for you to be ignorant of it. Yang Chen-fu's book has been translated. Fu Zhong-wen's book has been translated. Fu's videos are available for free on youtube. Chen Wei-ming's book have been translated. Yang Zhen-duo's DVDs are widely for sale.

There's just no excuse for a practice as poor as this.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Gentleman after seeing the supplied pictures I thougt these pictures of single whip should be posted

Single Whip - Yang Chengfu

Tung Ying Chieh

Tung Hu Ling

Dong Zeng Chen

And you can go here for more comparisons

Comparative postures - Yang Style

 

[mograph]

The wealth of information is not really relevant to the TTCS's position that Mr. Moy's way is the only way. If any TTCS instructors teach anything outside the instruction approved by the TTCS Instructional Committee, they must keep it quiet or risk losing their classes or their location.

I think it goes like this: traditional Tai Chi instruction is too difficult for the average person to understand and retain. It requires imagination, and it's difficult for a lot of adults to use their imagination to picture themselves rooting, to look inside to develop sensitivity and so on. The TTCS, in its instruction to the mass membership, avoids such discussions and focuses on movements that can be easily verified by visual examination by instructors. Certainly, if there is any discussion of the internal aspects of qi, rooting, yin/yang and other subtle aspects of the art, it must be kept for a small group who are in favor with the TTCS leadership, since it hasn't been a part of the approved curriculum for continuing students. Unless a lot has changed in the last couple of years.

To be fair to the TTCS exercise, it provides a gentle calisthenic for a lot of middle-aged and senior people, and does them a lot of good. The members also provide a nice social environment at the grass-roots level, as long as the TTCS leadership leaves things alone. And I know some people who do good work with people with health issues. And they have a great facility in Orangeville.

I think the choice was to help a lot of people a little bit with TTCS exercise, or to help fewer people a lot with Taiji that adheres to the classic principles. They picked the former. <shrug>

But is it any better or deeper than the friendly Tai Chi class at the YMCA? No. Just bigger. In my opinion.

 

[DaPoets]

mograph that was fairly insiteful and you made a lot of good points. Master Moy Lin Shin did want to help the masses, do things for the community, encourage cultural exchange, spend time helping the elderly and the sick, and to promote the healing aspect of tai chi. In doing this, the vast majority of the TTCS membership will only attain a certain level of understanding when it comes to tai chi and it's principles. BUT, for those that want to excel in it, there are plenty ways to do this as there is a deep and vast knowledge of tai chi out there in TTCS. Granted the martial art application won't be taught but the benefits that focus on health, balance, strength, clarity, rooting, relaxing, alchemy, physiology, is all out there and can be grasped, studied, understood and practiced. Not many will have that opportunity as there are only a select few with that deep knowledge and it is just lucky for me that I train under them now and very often. There are things I am taught that perhaps the average person in those group shots will never see because my development is easily noticable I have been told.
For example (brief example), even though I take Tony Kwon's class once a week, another international instructor was told by Tony to teach me some things while we were in another city. That international instructor gets the experience of teaching me something that isn't taught often, and then Tony gets the experience of eventually seeing me practice it, and obviously I have gained this experience as well.

Taoist Tai Chi has many stages. Most times people walk in the door needed to so extra long streching in moves like grasp birds tail and then the outside TTCS world says "what are they doing?" when the goal is to actually get that person to open up and then they will hopefully eventualy get to the point where their internals will naturally stretch and gain those same benifits from a long stretch but not having to stretch as far thus keeping a solid rooting, better balance transfer, all with less effort yet stronger foundation. CLEARLY, this takes years/decades.

 

[mograph]

DaPoets, are there any videos or photos of top-level TTCS practitioners available on the web for form comparison?

 

[DaPoets]

There is a video of Master Moy doing the Tai Chi set as well as another one of him doing the 1st half of Lok Hup Ba Fa. I have never searched the web to see if it is out there but I have the VHS of him doing the 1st half of Lok Hup Ba Fa. There is a book of him doing the tai chi set. Keep in mind that this is the book for beginners, to keep the form easy to learn in the beginners class. I don't know what the rules are about posting links to things for sale on this forum so if the link gets removed by a moderator I understand.

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Taoist-Ta...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209138536&sr=8-1

 

[East Winds]

Formosa Neijia

"I think this is what so many people are trying to help you see. The level of understanding of those in the groups shots is obvious -- there is NO understanding evident. This seems obvious to everyone else other than you. Why is that? "

You've hit the nail very squarely on the head. There are none so blind as cannot see. They have been told that squaring the hips, closing the heels, sinking into the front hip and stretching forward will help to stretch the spine and massage the internal organs. Of course what it will do is, close the kuas, stick out the backside (so evident in most of the TTCS postures), stiffen the back leg, cause tension in the shoulders and generally produce a very unstable posture. All of these aspects can be seen in the photographs produced by DaPoets. She must consider them good examples of TTCS practise or she would not have posted them. But then jamesler (obviously another very experienced TTCS person) tells us
"I think it is really naive to take a snap shot and make a judgement call on that". Who is correct?

mograph,

Good and useful input to this discussion.

Xue Sheng,

Thanks for the "GOOD" examples of Single Whip. TTCS members - have a good look at the Yang and Tung postures to see relaxed, stable, open, rooted, strong energy producing Single Whips.

Very best wishes

 

[mograph]

More TTCS photos can be found here.

 

[Xue Sheng]

More TTCS photos can be found here.

I can't judge the entire TTCS by a few pictures, if I did then the pictures that were produced a little while ago to show how bad for the knees traditional taiji was as compared to TTCS would be acceptable as proof and they are not and then I could also say that all Chen, Yang, Wu and Zhaobao are bad based on a few pictures and a few people I have seen do them that were awful. As a matter of fact I saw hundreds of people doing VERY bad Beijing 24 form Taiji in Tian Tan park in Beijing but I cannot say all taiji is bad based on that either.

What I can say is from what I see in these pictures I see to many locked elbows, locked knees, to many people way to front weighted and way to extended and in many cases no root.

Not all of the people in these pictures are doing this but an awful lot are.

 

[mograph]

Maybe then, if the best practitioners are representative of an art, and we have shots of Yang Cheng-fu et al, then it would be good to compare online videos and stills of the best practitioners of the TTCS exercise. To compare apples with apples, as it were.