tang soo do vs tae kwan do

[paulH]

Forgive my ignorance... but whats the difference,

I have a friend who has studdied tand soo do but what are the differences between tsd and tkd...

tsd has forms / katas and tkd is more sprts based is the impression i get... but i dont know...

can anybody enlighten me?

 

[terryl965]

TSD and TKD both have Poomsae/Kata's, they both have SD principle and both do just about the same thing. The major differences is in TKD they have been split for years, some is more sport orientated and other hold true to the SD principle that once was tought.

I believe they are like very close cousins, in one they hold more true to what once was and the other being TKD went a seperate direction and more to the sport side of things.

 

[paulH]

is there much hand work in tsd?...

seems mostly kicks (and most of them high) from the clips ive seen?

 

[terryl965]

is there much hand work in tsd?...

seems mostly kicks (and most of them high) from the clips ive seen?

Yes there are hands techniques in both arts, ow sport TKD does not really use the hands.

 

[exile]

Yes there are hands techniques in both arts, ow sport TKD does not really use the hands.

Right. And don't go by video clips, particularly when you're dealing with TKD, where most of the clips you'll see are from sparring matches under WTF Olympic-style rules which de facto penalize you for using hand techs. It's like watching the Indy 500 and coming to the conclusion that cars, in general, cannot make right- or left-hand turns, never go into reverse, and have room for only the driver. That kind of distortion is a danger with any MA, but in one which has such an overwhelming sport-competitive side to it, the risk of getting the wrong impression from a vid clip is especially bad.

 

[SageGhost83]

I believe they are like very close cousins, in one they hold more true to what once was and the other being TKD went a seperate direction and more to the sport side of things.

I second that. Also, TSD still practices a lot of the original O/J forms and TKD has scrapped those forms in favor of new forms.

 

[paulH]

Right. And don't go by video clips, particularly when you're dealing with TKD, where most of the clips you'll see are from sparring matches under WTF Olympic-style rules which de facto penalize you for using hand techs. It's like watching the Indy 500 and coming to the conclusion that cars, in general, cannot make right- or left-hand turns, never go into reverse, and have room for only the driver. That kind of distortion is a danger with any MA, but in one which has such an overwhelming sport-competitive side to it, the risk of getting the wrong impression from a vid clip is especially bad.

coming from a jkd background my reference point is always how useful is it in a fight...

from what you have said would i be right in thinking a tsd practitioner is likley to be a more rounded fighter than tkd as the tks practitioner is unlikley to practice their hand techniques as much as a tsd practitioner?

also is there much pad work?...

i have a friend visiting who does tsd and might do some training with them...

 

[MBuzzy]

You will also hear Soo Bahk Do associated with Tang Soo Do. Within the SBD organization, there have been forms created that are not of Japanese descent, they are actually more chinese influenced.

TSD is pretty well balanced between foot and hand techniques.

Also, you will find volumes of information on the differences with some searches on existing threads. In fact, there might even be some other threads on this topic.

 

[MBuzzy]

coming from a jkd background my reference point is always how useful is it in a fight...

from what you have said would i be right in thinking a tsd practitioner is likley to be a more rounded fighter than tkd as the tks practitioner is unlikley to practice their hand techniques as much as a tsd practitioner?

also is there much pad work?...

i have a friend visiting who does tsd and might do some training with them...

I think you'll have problems when you get into comparing fighters. You're going to have great fighters from either style, both well rounded, and both just as likely to use hands or feet depending on individual skill and school.

Pad work depends completely on the school. Ours does very little, but I've been to some who do very much pad work.

 

[Makalakumu]

Pad work. That's all we do in order to practice our basics. I'm of the mind that it makes little sense to march up and down the floor...unless you are learning a technique for a hyung. I'd rather have my students have some ability to apply force to a target with resistance. I've been to a few TKD schools who also did this, except most of what they practiced were kicks and kicking combos.

 

[exile]

coming from a jkd background my reference point is always how useful is it in a fight...

from what you have said would i be right in thinking a tsd practitioner is likley to be a more rounded fighter than tkd as the tks practitioner is unlikley to practice their hand techniques as much as a tsd practitioner?

also is there much pad work?...

i have a friend visiting who does tsd and might do some training with them...

UpNorth and MBuzzy have made the right points here, Paul. I'd just add that with TKD, you'll probably find a lot more dojangs that are pretty much completely sport oriented; but there are also schools which emphasize SD much more heavily, and in these schools, the mix of hand and foot techs are likely to be balanced in much the same way as TKD. We train elbows and knees as prime striking weapons in my school, and other techs that are illegal in competitive TKD but belong to the TKD technical arsenal (as shown by their use in the hyungs we study).

I think a good deal of the difference between the two arts is a function of the fact that TKD is much more centrally controlled than TSD, as you'd expect from the fact that there is a huge sporteaucracy associated with any Olympic sport. Much more central control, much more top-down, much more of a Korean-oriented agenda. TSD strikes me as more like karate institutionally: much smaller associations, much less imposition of curriculum from above, much more lattitude to set the course at the individual dojang level.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Right. And don't go by video clips, particularly when you're dealing with TKD, where most of the clips you'll see are from sparring matches under WTF Olympic-style rules which de facto penalize you for using hand techs. It's like watching the Indy 500 and coming to the conclusion that cars, in general, cannot make right- or left-hand turns, never go into reverse, and have room for only the driver. That kind of distortion is a danger with any MA, but in one which has such an overwhelming sport-competitive side to it, the risk of getting the wrong impression from a vid clip is especially bad.

And how! And I can say this from having studied TKD and SBD.

I wish the Olympic TKD would just call itself OTKD. Kind of like IPSC used to mean 'practical shooting' but it's gone way way overboard (sorry,but I love to shoot as much as I like martial arts and IPSC used to be a very good form of training tool for the use of the defensive pistol.)

As for differences. Oh there are some definalty. TSD and SBD do lots of beathing exercises, and I can say they emphasize the historical and cultural aspects much more than any TKD school I've been in. Also you will see some Chineese as well as Japanese and Korean methods.

Deaf

 

[DMcHenry]

From my experience, TKD can vary A LOT, from a very traditional/classical "old school" way which is virtually identical to TSD to the modern sport "Olympic" style others have mentioned here. The ITF TKD is closer to TSD and less sport oriented, but have implemented the "sine wave" in their movement. ATA TKD and offshoots completely revamped they way they do things and their forms. TKD is a very generic overview term for Korean Karate and can encompass old style art to modern sport.

TSD although can be very different from school to school or association to association is still more consistent in it's look and approach. The modern derivation of TSD SooBahkDo has newer forms and movements that look more Chinese in flavor.

Again this is a very simplistic overview of the differences/similarities. The first style of TKD I trained in was virtually identical to TSD. I've trained in several other schools and preferred the old style, thus I just stick to TSD now but may crosstrain and play with other TKD guys when I get a chance. It's all good, just different approaches depending on what you like.

 

[exile]

From my experience, TKD can vary A LOT, from a very traditional/classical "old school" way which is virtually identical to TSD...

—I know just what you're talking about, Master Mac!

... to the modern sport "Olympic" style others have mentioned here. The ITF TKD is closer to TSD and less sport oriented, but have implemented the "sine wave" in their movement. ATA TKD and offshoots completely revamped they way they do things and their forms. TKD is a very generic overview term for Korean Karate and can encompass old style art to modern sport.

TSD although can be very different from school to school or association to association is still more consistent in it's look and approach. The modern derivation of TSD SooBahkDo has newer forms and movements that look more Chinese in flavor.[/COLOR]

Again this is a very simplistic overview of the differences/similarities. The first style of TKD I trained in was virtually identical to TSD.

You've piqued my curiosity... what style was that? Some of the Song Moo Kwan lineages, like mine, through Gm. Joon Pye Choi, fit that description to a T (though not all do, as I've recently discovered). And I'd be willing to bet that some of the Moo Duk Kwan TKD schools are like that as well.

I've trained in several other schools and preferred the old style, thus I just stick to TSD now but may crosstrain and play with other TKD guys when I get a chance. It's all good, just different approaches depending on what you like.

I agree, it really is a matter of what you go for. But I have to say, I much prefer the 'horizontal' organizational structure of TSD, where the individual dojang seems to be the primary instructional and technical unit, rather than the Korean-based TKD way, where Big Brother seems just about to start watching you.

I see, in the not too distant future, a splitting-off of the traditional TKD schools from TKD Central in Seoul, and eventually a rapprochement between the version of TKD that the breakaway schools do on the one hand and TSD on the other. I don't see why a clash amongst a group of now mostly deceased players getting on for half a century ago should continue to keep people with a common MA vision institutionally separate from their like-minded KMA colleagues. Wishful thinking, maybe... but not impossible by any means, eh?

 

[terryl965]

Yes Exile MDKTKD is like that, I know the actual resemblish of the two arts are so canny. That if you did not know better you would think same exact Kwon. Well that is enough from me right now be back later.

 

[DMcHenry]

The first style of TKD I trained in was virtually identical to TSD.

You've piqued my curiosity... what style was that?

I always thought it must have been a MDK TKD style, but now I'm not positively sure. My instructor was the late Master Kim Chang-soo, older brother of GM Kim Pyung-soo of Chayonryu TKD (whom I also trained with later in college) at the University of Houston.

When I got older I was trying to go back and find more information about him but haven't been able to find out any information. I've tried writing Kim Soo but never heard back from him. There is one person that I know of I'd like to talk to that I remember was there when I was and may have the answers, as he was one of the black belt instructors training there. I think he did teach Song Moo Kwan and I'd like to know if that was what my instructor was teaching.

 

[exile]

I always thought it must have been a MDK TKD style, but now I'm not positively sure. My instructor was the late Master Kim Chang-soo, older brother of GM Kim Pyung-soo of Chayonryu TKD (whom I also trained with later in college) at the University of Houston.

When I got older I was trying to go back and find more information about him but haven't been able to find out any information. I've tried writing Kim Soo but never heard back from him. There is one person that I know of I'd like to talk to that I remember was there when I was and may have the answers, as he was one of the black belt instructors training there. I think he did teach Song Moo Kwan and I'd like to know if that was what my instructor was teaching.

Whatever you find out, I'd be very interested in hearing about. You might try querying Master Rob McLain, one of our MartialTalk members (username is rmclain) who also is a student of Gm. Kim Pyung-soo....

 

[terryl965]

I always thought it must have been a MDK TKD style, but now I'm not positively sure. My instructor was the late Master Kim Chang-soo, older brother of GM Kim Pyung-soo of Chayonryu TKD (whom I also trained with later in college) at the University of Houston.

When I got older I was trying to go back and find more information about him but haven't been able to find out any information. I've tried writing Kim Soo but never heard back from him. There is one person that I know of I'd like to talk to that I remember was there when I was and may have the answers, as he was one of the black belt instructors training there. I think he did teach Song Moo Kwan and I'd like to know if that was what my instructor was teaching.

Robert Mclain is the person to talk to, his user name is rmclain and visit here often. How is it you lost touch with him after being one of his student. Do you also remember Master Garcia and Master George Mendez they both came out of there about the same time frame as you.

 

[rmclain]

Robert Mclain is the person to talk to, his user name is rmclain and visit here often. How is it you lost touch with him after being one of his student. Do you also remember Master Garcia and Master George Mendez they both came out of there about the same time frame as you.

Kim Chang-soo died, but I don't remember how long ago. I got the impression it was a while ago. Grandmaster Kim has spoken some about him, but not much. Kim Chang-soo was older brother of Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo, but didn't start training until Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo was already around a 3rd or 4th degree black belt, if I remember correctly. Seems to me, Kim Chang-soo studied at either Grandmaster Park Chul-hee's Kangduk-Won or at The Korean Taekwon-karate Academy, founded by Grandmaster Kim Pyung-soo in 1964 in Seoul. Perhaps he did both.

There are a few pictures of Kim Chang-soo in the photos at this link: http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-old-days/song-duk-ki.html

I'm trying not to be too picky, but Chayon-Ryu is not a type of taekwondo. To put it into perspective, there are around 50 forms (hyung) required for 5th Dan in Chayon-Ryu. Only 11 of those come from Taekwondo.

R. McLain


R. McLain

 

[DMcHenry]

Hey Master McClain, long time no talk to. Yes, Kim Chang-soo died quite a while back but I don't remember the exact date. My mom had seen the article in the local paper and sent it to me, knowing he had been my instructor.

Yes, Chayon-ryu was different than what Kim Chang-soo taught. The person I was thinking of that was there when I was is Master Randy Young, whom I believe is in Baytown now. I'd like to talk to him if I can get his contact info.

I remember seeing a copy of Kim Chang-soo's visa (??) that he came over to the US in 1968 I believe as a "martial arts instructor" (may have said Karate Instructor). He was a 7th Dan at the time. I remember a student transferring over from one of Kim Pyung-soo's schools and thought it odd that the student performed many techniques differently. The two most obvious things I remember seeing was roundhouse kick using the instep and the rear hand of the middle knife hand block chamber being much lower than the way we chambered. Master Kim didn't like outside influences in his school and throughly tested transfer students to check them out.

Once while hanging out with Master Conrad at a bar (he was there to visit my boss, who is Kim Soo's brother-in-law) we mostly just talked about GM Kim Soo. I didn't think to ask much about Master Kim Chang-soo.

I think Master Kim got mad at me for training with another instructor in TangSooDo and ShotoKan. Once I went back to see him and hopefully train with him again, and he basically asked us to leave, saying my wife was too attractive and distracting for his students..... and because I had trained elsewhere he wouldn't let me join his class again (again, he didn't like outside influences in his class). I eventually found GM Kim Jae-joon and just almost completely switched over to TSD only. Funny thing though, Kim Jae-joon is listed as 9th dan Kukkiwon TKD too.

I remember seeing a lot of cool old photos of Master Kim (and I'm pretty sure had GM Kim in there too) at the school. GM Kim Pyung-soo did know I trained with his brother, but we didn't talk about him when I trained with GM Kim. When I worked for their brother-in-law, he knew I trained with both of them and invited me to dinner at his house, where GM Kim's sister prepared a teriffic Korean lunch for us. I just didn't think much about the history back then - just trained and didn't ask questions. He was supposed to be a TKD master as well, but I worked for him only as an employee at a hotel he owned.

If you get the chance to ask GM Kim about his brother, I'd appriciate it if you'd let me know. It's like not knowing anything about your father's background or history. Master Kim Chang-soo was very influential for me and caused me to stick with it and have a long KMA career. My sister was also his first female student. I miss that school and training there. My number was 478B (my sister was "A"). With all the things I've forgotten, funny the little details I do remember. I even remember my very first day.

Take care,
Mac