Tang Soo Do Root Identification

[SahBumNimRush]

I agree, this has to be one of the most interesting threads I've come across on here.

From my reading, BIY studied Joo An Pa, which the author translated into Ch'uan Fa. I am aware of J P Choi and Y P Choi's knowledge of Sip Pal Ki (and have seen their masters demo's at many a tournament in the 80's and early 90's). So my question is, are Joo An Pa and Sip Pal Ki synonymous terms, or are they different?

Thanks to everyone for all of the back stories, alot of which I have heard before, but the more detailed correlations between BIY, BJR, KWK, and HK are fascinating. What I had heard of the relationship between KWK and HK was small in detail compared to what some of you are sharing and I greatly appreciate it!

 

[MasterPistella]

Master Rush. That's a very interesting question. I have only heard of BIY studying Ch'uan Fa and "Northern Kung Fu". I always thought of them as separate arts, but never thought to ask if they were the same. This is also the first time I've heard of Joo An Pa. I will have to make a point of asking about that. Do you remember their demo when they do the double broad sword? I always liked that one.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Master Rush. That's a very interesting question. I have only heard of BIY studying Ch'uan Fa and "Northern Kung Fu". I always thought of them as separate arts, but never thought to ask if they were the same. This is also the first time I've heard of Joo An Pa. I will have to make a point of asking about that. Do you remember their demo when they do the double broad sword? I always liked that one.

It was my understanding that "Joo An Pa" is the Korean term for Ch'uan Fa, although I may be mistaken. And yes, I have seen the double broad sword demonstration by the Choi brothers, it's one of my favorites as well. Their double stick fighting routine was very impressive as well.

 

[dancingalone]

Master Rush. That's a very interesting question. I have only heard of BIY studying Ch'uan Fa and "Northern Kung Fu". I always thought of them as separate arts, but never thought to ask if they were the same. This is also the first time I've heard of Joo An Pa. I will have to make a point of asking about that. Do you remember their demo when they do the double broad sword? I always liked that one.

I've only heard what BIY learned as being called chuan fa or kwon bup. Never heard "Northern kung fu", but that's probably a reasonable alternative term. Forms such as doju san and jang kwon definitely resemble more the forms from 'Northern' Chinese styles like cha quan than Southern fists such as White Crane or Hung Family Fist.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

The more I look at it, I'm thinking Joo An Pa is merely the romanization for the Korean pronounciation of the Chinese word Ch'uan Fa, whereas the Korean word FOR Ch'uan Fa is Kwon Bup. But I'm still trying to find the connection between the terms Ch'uan Fa and Ship Pal Gi.. .

 

[MasterPistella]

The Korean pronunciation I agree with. No idea about the Kwon Bup tho. Funny. Master Paik called me today but I was going to lunch. Have to call him back in a few mins.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

The Korean pronunciation I agree with. No idea about the Kwon Bup tho. Funny. Master Paik called me today but I was going to lunch. Have to call him back in a few mins.

Not to say that wikipedia is the end all, be all, but it says that Kwon Bup (Gwonbeop) is the fist fighting method of Ship Pal Gi. Ship Pal Gi translates into the 18 martial methods, referring to the Muye Dobo Tongji. Kwon Bup is one of those 18 methods.

Dunno how much that clears things up, but that's what I've found.. .

 

[EMST930]

There seems to be an undercurrent to identify TSD back to Okinawan karate rather than Japanese karate. True or false?

My understanding is that TSD and TKD are the Korean interpretations of Okinawan karate, just as Shotokan is the Japanese interpretation of Okinawan karate. TSD's teaching methodology was taken from Okinawan Karate taught first through the Okinawan school system then the university system of Japan. BUT, the way it was explained to me, the Japanese only had karate for less than 20 years when the first Koreans began training.

I'm paraphrasing Master Glenn Jones from his book when he gives the timeline that Won Kuk Lee started his training between 1926-28 as a university student. Funakoshi had only been in Japan for four years...Master Jones makes the argument that the basic techniques taught at that time are NOT what 40 years later would become known as Shotokan. The Japanese had not yet made it "uniquely Japanese." The Okinawan influence comes from many directions, with Mabuni/Toyama training Yoon Kye Byung, who Hwang Kee later partnered with to tap into Shito-Ryu. (Korean Martial Arts Handbook)

We don't really say that TSD is Okinawan Karate...per Master Scott's book it's "a composite style with techniques derived from Okinawan Karate, Tae Kyon, and Yang Tai Chi, with some techniques having origins in Judo and Hapkido...The vast majority of the traditional hyung techniques in Tang Soo Do are from the Okinawan Art of Shorin-Ryu through the styles of Shotokan and Shito-Ryu. The kicking can be credited to Tae Kyon and the creativity of the early practitioners of Korean Karate, who, in their zeal to build the Moo Duk Kwan and spread the art of Tang Soo Do in Korea, took the kicking techniques to another level." (Traditional Korean Karate Basics)

On the flip side, Master Scott also voiced the opinion that Grandmaster Hwang Kee borrowed from Wado Ryu when it came to fighting because of his exposure to Japanese soldiers practicing it on the rails between Korea and Manchuria. I had to go digging in the depths of the old internet to find it from 1998--if anyone remembers that heated online battle.

By the way, I just ordered the Lost Art of Tang Soo Do...

 

[tbma_mark]

We’ve had this discussion on GM David Zacker’s forum, http://www.s3.excoboard.com/MartialSpirit The problem with the history here is records are hard to come by. Between the end of WWII, the 3 years of the Korean war, the South Korean’s attempts to erase Japan’s influences from the 30 years of occupation and finally the South Korean’s attempt to incorporate all the schools into one national martial art. We found you can discuss this for days, weeks, months, and never come up with an answer that can be proven.
What is known is that Won Kuk Lee and Hwang Kee did know each other. Won Kuk Lee said Hwang Kee was a student of his for a short time, I don’t remember ever hearing Hwang Kee admit or deny this. Won Kuk Lee studied in Japan under Funakoshi, who was Okinawan and trained in Okinawa. It’s no secret that Won Kuk Lee told Hwang Kee he should change the name of his art from Hwa So Do to Tang Soo Do. There are photos from the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s, of Hwang Kee and Won Kuk Lee together. Hwang Kee sat on Won Kuk Lee’s promotion boards and vice versa.
The most likely influence on Tang Soo Do is likely to be Shotokan. Some 30 years of Japanese occupation pretty much sealed that. However, Shotokan was taught to the Japanese by an Okinawan, by default, Tang Soo Do would then have Okinawan influences too.


Personally, I think Won Kuk Lee taught the forms to Hwang Kee. I suspect Won Kuk Lee and Hwang Kee had more than just a professional relationship. Won Kuk Lee in an interview called Hwang Kee a friend of his. It’s been my experience, if two or more martial artists are together, they start exchanging ideas and techniques. So, even if Hwang Kee was a student of Won Kuk Lee’s for a short time, it’s probable that they continued to exchange ideas and techniques and the training continued, just not formally.

 

[Makalakumu]

From the research that I pulled together for my book, Hwang Kee trained in a Chinese Martial Art when he worked on the railroad. He worked at a library and read some books on karate and began to practice the moves. He started training with Lee Won Kuk as his student for about 1.5 years and then branched out by founding the MDK.

From admissions and other sources, we can conclude that Hwang Kee had about 3 years total of formal training before he founded the MDK.

 

[dancingalone]

Won Kuk Lee studied in Japan under Funakoshi, who was Okinawan and trained in Okinawa.

I don't think this has been substantiated by any written evidence. The only "known" ranking of any Korean GM by an Okinawan/Japanese was Kanken Toyama recognizing Byung In Yoon as 4th dan and shihan.

The most likely influence on Tang Soo Do is likely to be Shotokan. Some 30 years of Japanese occupation pretty much sealed that. However, Shotokan was taught to the Japanese by an Okinawan, by default, Tang Soo Do would then have Okinawan influences too.

As someone who has delved into shorin-ryu karate, my opinion is that TSD is a lot closer to Shotokan karate than it is to shorin-ryu. The persistent emphasis on hip twist is evidence towards this conclusion.

 

[tbma_mark]

It is documented that Won Kuk Lee went to Japan and enrolled in Chuo University where he studied Law. While there, Lee studied Shotokan under Funakoshi Sensei, earning at least a 3rd dan. Some sources say a 4th dan. Lee returned to Korea in 1944. Lee had to obtained permission from the Japanese governor to start teaching defensive martial arts. The ban on martial arts had been lifted in 1943. Lee started teaching a style he called Tang Soo Do.

Funakoshi Sensei did not teach the Japanese the applications he was taught. He was Okinawan and just like many Okinawans, he view the Japanese as invaders. I guess he went by the I taught you everything you know, but I didn't teach you everything I know.

 

[dancingalone]

It is documented that Won Kuk Lee went to Japan and enrolled in Chuo University where he studied Law. While there, Lee studied Shotokan under Funakoshi Sensei, earning at least a 3rd dan. Some sources say a 4th dan.

Source, please? I don't dispute that he studied karate in Japan. I do question whether it's accurate that he was a student of Gichin Funakoshi's. I understand there is lots of "oral history" that states Won Kuk Lee studied under Funakoshi. What I'm saying that there seems to be no official record surviving whatsoever that shows the relationship. But, such records do exist for the Japanese students of Funakoshi.

 

[Makalakumu]

Source, please? I don't dispute that he studied karate in Japan. I do question whether it's accurate that he was a student of Gichin Funakoshi's. I understand there is lots of "oral history" that states Won Kuk Lee studied under Funakoshi. What I'm saying that there seems to be no official record surviving whatsoever that shows the relationship. But, such records do exist for the Japanese students of Funakoshi.

There is no written record of who exactly trained with Funakoshi sensei. What we have are the words and observations of other people who trained with him. Noting that, we have multiple interviews with people who observed two Koreans training with Funakoshi Sensei. One was Byung Jick Ro who came back to Korea and founded Song Do Kwan (Shotokan in Korean - this was later changed to Song Moo Kwan). The other was Won Kuk Lee who came back and founded Chung Do Kwan. WKL was the first Korean to use the term Tang Soo Do to describe the art.

There are some academics who have actually tracked this down in order to construct a verifiable history for TKD. I used this material in my book in order to substantiate a direct connection between TSD and Shotokan.

 

[dancingalone]

There is no written record of who exactly trained with Funakoshi sensei.

I had understood that in his personal writings, Funakoshi mentioned several of his Japanese students by name. Possibly in the forewards to his published books also, although I don't have copies here at work to verify if my recollection is correct.

 

[Makalakumu]

I had understood that in his personal writings, Funakoshi mentioned several of his Japanese students by name. Possibly in the forewards to his published books also, although I don't have copies here at work to verify if my recollection is correct.

What I meant by that statement was that there was no official list of names. All we have are some of the things that you and I have mentioned. The MDK instituted the dan bon system in order to provide some kind of official list and prevent some of these problems.

 

[rmclain]

Toyama Kanken also listed Yoon Kwe-Byung(Yoon Ui-byung) as 4th dan in his directory. He and Yoon Byung-in were the only Koreans listed.

Many people know that Yoon Kwe-Byung(Yoon Ui-byung) was an early pioneer of the Jido-Kwan. But, many don't know that he actually ran a school earlier in Japan he called, "Han Moo Kwan" (Korean People Martial School). "Han" is the old name for Korean people. He also wrote a bong-sul (bo jitsu) book in Japan and dedicated it to one of his teachers, Mabuni Genwa.

Apparently, both GM Yoon's were good friends. Yoon Byung-in taught a bong-sul hyung created by Yoon Kwe-Byung(Yoon Ui-byung) in his YMCA Kwon Bup Bu program, which was carried into the later Changmoo-kwan and KangDuk-Won under several of Yoon Byung-in's senior students. One of their students, Kim Pyung-soo, who was number 24 of the Changmoo-kwan dan list, went through great lengths to preserve Yoon Byung-in's lineage and the bong-sul hyung (including Yoon Kwe-Byung(Yoon Ui-byung)'s bong-sul hyung). He continuously studied these forms and taught them, even today. He is currently in Busan, Korea.

R. McLain

 

[DMcHenry]

Master McLain do you have any references (or videos links) so we can see an example of the bong-sul hyung? Sounds very interesting.

 

[rmclain]

No, I don't have any links. Grandmaster Kim doesn't want to teach students outside of Chayon-Ryu these forms. He's demonstrated these personally countless times in the US since 1968. I've personally demo'ed some of these forms over the years in Arlington since 1994.

I understand his feeling not wanting to teach these outside of his students. He resisted alot of pressure to give these forms up and follow the taekwondo movement. This is part of the reason he immigrated to the U.S. in 1968 from Korea - to escape that pressure.

I have seen people that were supposed to be old-days students from Yoon Byung-in's lineage (Changmoo-kwan or Kangduk-Won), yet they don't know these forms. Some requested video tapes from Grandmaster Kim, so they could learn the forms now. Simply they never learned them originally or gave them up for the sport taekwondo movement years ago. Who knows why they want them now.

I know this is a long answer for a simple, "No." Master McHenry, since you trained with his brother for awhile, I thought I would provide the above explaination why you might not find these forms on youtube or elsewhere.

You may e-mail Grandmaster Kim about Yoon Kwe-Byung's bong-sul book. He has a copy.

R. McLain

 

[195]

Master Rush. That's a very interesting question. I have only heard of BIY studying Ch'uan Fa and "Northern Kung Fu". I always thought of them as separate arts, but never thought to ask if they were the same. This is also the first time I've heard of Joo An Pa. I will have to make a point of asking about that. Do you remember their demo when they do the double broad sword? I always liked that one.

I'm not sure if it helps any but my grandmaster (grandmaster Jung sometimes spelled Chung) trained directly under Hwang Kee and he was also sent by Hwang Kee to a buddhist monastery in China to learn northern mantis gung fu when he was a young man (So rim Gung fu....so rim translates to shaolin). The style looks a lot like plum flower mantis.It is interesting to know that my Grandmaster was sent to this monastery to learn the style. My grandmaster (Jung) was sent to the US in 1978 under grandmaster Hwang Kees orders to open a school here. If you look at So Rim Jang Kwan and other forms such as Chil sung sa roh you can see the evident mantis stylistics. I'm not sure totally what to make of all this but maybe you all can help. My school teaches both MDK tang soo do and so rim mantis gung fu.