Tang Soo Do and Frustration

[Tony Dismukes]

I am not sure if you hear all the BS around the MA world that "BJJ is the best martial art for a real fight".

Yeah, I've heard that about BJJ and about Ninjutsu and about Wing Chun and about JKD and about Krav Maga and about Karate and about TKD, etc, etc. It's BS no matter which art is being held up as "the best." If you go in believing the hype of a perfect system you're always going to be disappointed. Every art has its strengths and weaknesses. (Except Ameri-Do-Te. )

I think I have offended you and I really did not mean to.

Nah. I have no vested interest in you liking BJJ. It's not for everyone, any more than TSD or any other art is. I was just pointing out that you're making some sweeping generalizations based on very limited experience and understanding. For the sake of correctly informing anyone else who is considering BJJ as an art I would propose some more accurate statements than what you were making:

BJJ has a sport aspect as well as a combative aspect.

Some schools focus more on the sport aspect, others on the combative side. It's important to know which you are getting. (BTW - if the place you were attending for a month truly only addressed the sportive side, that would be a major strike against it as a MMA gym. MMA fighters need to know how to defend against strikes while grappling.)

The guard can be a crucial tool for defending against strikes when an opponent puts you on your back, but you need to train it combatively to develop that tool. Most BJJ practitioners prefer to maintain the top position whenever possible in a real fight because the threat from punches is much, much less when you are on top.

BJJ takes time to get good at, just like anything else. Based on my own experience I think I could probably train someone to be effective in a fight with BJJ faster than almost any other unarmed art I've experienced. This does depend on effective teaching, however. If you are a beginner and you have a teacher that just shows a couple of advanced techniques with no context and then throws you to the sharks to get thrashed for the rest of the class session, then your progress will not be optimal.

When you first start out in BJJ, you will be sore. (I believe I warned you about that.) It does get better in time as your body adapts.

Patience and pain tolerance are useful attributes no matter what martial art you practice.



Anyway, there are no hard feelings and I hope you enjoy being back to your old art.

 

[Tez3]

I agree with everything in your post, with the exception of this sentence! You couldn't be further from the truth! However, I do not blame you for seeing it that way as I must have led you to believe this if you are thinking it.

But I chose my current TSD school BECAUSE it was more difficult to obtain a black belt! I chose it BECAUSE they weren't just handing out belt rankings and black belts like candy, like 85% of the other schools I went to did!
I just did not think they were going to change the time requirements to suit their needs (the owners and masters) and define when they are going to enforce them, and when they are not going to.

But I do not, absolutely do not want a style I can "perfect' in months and obtain a belt that happens to be black in color. If I would have attended any of the other McDojos that I went to and did trial classes at when I first was interested in martial arts, I would have had a "black belt" by now.....but in reality, it wouldn't have meant anything!

but you didn't stick to it.

I don't think you know what are McDojos and what aren't, nor do I think you understand what martial arts is about.

What you are coming across as is someone who who has trouble understanding people, what they say and what they mean. You want a style that fits you perfectly, that will make the effort to keep you interested, that will provide something in your life that you can't and I'm afraid there is no style that does that. You have to make the effort not the style, not the instructors and not us. You accuse everywhere of being a McDojo and of not being 'correct' but the truth is you didn't make the effort to understand what you were getting into.

If you didn't want a style you can perfect in a short time why did you leave TSD saying you are bored? How can you be bored when there's so much work to do for your belts? Why are you whinging you can't grade again so soon. Take Bill's advice, get a cup of man up and get down to some hard work.

 

[Kaygee]

Ok.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But I chose my current TSD school BECAUSE it was more difficult to obtain a black belt! I chose it BECAUSE they weren't just handing out belt rankings and black belts like candy, like 85% of the other schools I went to did!
I just did not think they were going to change the time requirements to suit their needs (the owners and masters) and define when they are going to enforce them, and when they are not going to.

So, you chose a style where it was difficult to obtain black, yet you can become a 1st gup in 2 1/2 years? Really puts a damper on my 12 years to get the black belt (though to be fair, I started at 5, and took a year or two off when I broke my leg then got distracted by BSA, so not sure if all the years count).

And IMO they are enforcing it properly. If you take off for over a month, they obviously cant let you go test the next day. I know that if I ran a school, and a student left for 6 weeks, then came back right before the test and claimed to have been practicing daily, I would NOT let him test. Tbh, I would probably make them wait the extra four months till the next test as a punishment/to make sure that they are dedicated this time. And this is coming from someone who took some time off to focus on his eagle project, and had to wait an extra year to test for my JBB as a result. But if a student of mine was dedicated and had matured with both technique and understanding of the material, I can see myself letting that student test a bit early.

If, while you were there most days, they were letting others test early but not you, you should look into yourself to fix it, and not blame the school/instructors.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Also, as a bit of reference for the JBB test thing, I broke my leg on the May 30th preparing for my test that was on June 3rd, so before I took the time off, I was ready to test. I was forced to wait a year to take it with the other students at the test that was taking place a year after I came back, instead of the one taking place a month later, because I was not at the level that I was when I left. However, when I got to that level, I still had to wait another 6 months, instead of getting a private test, which I thought was perfectly fair. (although one of my Sensei's did feel bad for me and started teaching me the material I was supposed to learn directly after my test).

P.S. If you're not able to advanced right now, just refine the things you already know. You'd be surprised how much better your overall technique is if you just spend a month or two working solely on the basics, then slowly build your way back up to your current level.

 

[Kaygee]

And IMO they are enforcing it properly. If you take off for over a month, they obviously cant let you go test the next day. I know that if I ran a school, and a student left for 6 weeks, then came back right before the test and claimed to have been practicing daily, I would NOT let him test. Tbh, I would probably make them wait the extra four months till the next test as a punishment/to make sure that they are dedicated this time. And this is coming from someone who took some time off to focus on his eagle project, and had to wait an extra year to test for my JBB as a result. But if a student of mine was dedicated and had matured with both technique and understanding of the material, I can see myself letting that student test a bit early.

When I refer to them choosing when or when not to enforce, I am referring to them skipping students a rank or two at their discretion and not testing students that meet their "time requirements" critera.

 

[Tez3]

When I refer to them choosing when or when not to enforce, I am referring to them skipping students a rank or two at their discretion and not testing students that meet their "time requirements" critera.

Kempodisciple is correct when he says that two and half years to 1st Gup is very fast.That's grading every three months just about and you think that's not a sign of McDojoism?
I imagine that your instructors would allow students to skip rank if they felt they had worked for it and would hold other students back if they felt they weren't ready. Time alone doesn't dictate whether you should grade. Usually time requirements which are a guideline only are a minimum of time spent training, they aren't set in stone ie 'I've trained for three months therefore am ready for grading', it doesn't follow, however if you instructors are turning out black belts in less than three years perhaps it's not what you think it is.

 

[Kaygee]

Kempodisciple is correct when he says that two and half years to 1st Gup is very fast.That's grading every three months just about and you think that's not a sign of McDojoism?
I imagine that your instructors would allow students to skip rank if they felt they had worked for it and would hold other students back if they felt they weren't ready. Time alone doesn't dictate whether you should grade. Usually time requirements which are a guideline only are a minimum of time spent training, they aren't set in stone ie 'I've trained for three months therefore am ready for grading', it doesn't follow, however if you instructors are turning out black belts in less than three years perhaps it's not what you think it is.

This is actually the standard Tang Soo Do time requirements to test.

10th gup thru 3rd gup, you are eligble to test every 3 months.
3rd gup to 2nd gup minimum eligiblity to test is 6 months.
2nd gup to 1st gup minimum eligibility to test is 6 months.
1st gup to 1st dan minimum eligibility to test is 1 year.

So, no, I do not think it is a McDojo as they are following the standard time requirements in testing as far as the requirements set forth by the Tang Soo Do International guidelines.

 

[Kaygee]

Kempodisciple is correct when he says that two and half years to 1st Gup is very fast.That's grading every three months just about and you think that's not a sign of McDojoism?
I imagine that your instructors would allow students to skip rank if they felt they had worked for it and would hold other students back if they felt they weren't ready. Time alone doesn't dictate whether you should grade. Usually time requirements which are a guideline only are a minimum of time spent training, they aren't set in stone ie 'I've trained for three months therefore am ready for grading', it doesn't follow, however if you instructors are turning out black belts in less than three years perhaps it's not what you think it is.

And another thing is, my brother was more than ready to test (I spoke about this a while back in a thread) but he had a child in March after receiving his 3rd gup in December and missed 6 weeks. He was there every other class from December to June with the exception of those 6 weeks and you could tell that he practiced at home.

When it came time to get a test paper in June, he was told "he didn't have enough classes". When asked, they stated that they did not deny his knowledge or skill, but he did not meet the attendance requirements.
And this would be fine, if there weren't people ahead of us that couldn't do a fighting stance or a simple chop block!

So therefore, this is all at the master's discretion......right? Time requirements, class requirements, all of these things come before skill and knowledge.....that is the message that is being sent to me!!!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is actually the standard Tang Soo Do time requirements to test.

10th gup thru 3rd gup, you are eligble to test every 3 months.
3rd gup to 2nd gup minimum eligiblity to test is 6 months.
2nd gup to 1st gup minimum eligibility to test is 6 months.
1st gup to 1st dan minimum eligibility to test is 1 year.

So, no, I do not think it is a McDojo as they are following the standard time requirements in testing as far as the requirements set forth by the Tang Soo Do International guidelines.

Correct me if I'm wrong, by after doing the math, it would take 2 years, 9 months to become 1st gup. So by this standard, You've been tested literally the moment that the organization allows you to every time. That, along with skipping ranks, (which I was not saying was ok before, I was saying ignoring the time requirements for special cases is ok. Although I take that back, after seeing how short the time requirements are) means they're trying to promote people to black as quickly as possible without going against the organization.

This also explains why you are so focused on missing a test, its become more of a 'right' to you to test then a 'privilege' that you get for proving yourself at that rank.
Just out of curiosity, if you think 3 months between ranks is more difficult/lengthy, how often were the other dojos you checked out pormoting people??

 

[Kaygee]

Correct me if I'm wrong, by after doing the math, it would take 2 years, 9 months to become 1st gup. So by this standard, You've been tested literally the moment that the organization allows you to every time. That, along with skipping ranks, (which I was not saying was ok before, I was saying ignoring the time requirements for special cases is ok. Although I take that back, after seeing how short the time requirements are) means they're trying to promote people to black as quickly as possible without going against the organization.

This also explains why you are so focused on missing a test, its become more of a 'right' to you to test then a 'privilege' that you get for proving yourself at that rank.
Just out of curiosity, if you think 3 months between ranks is more difficult/lengthy, how often were the other dojos you checked out pormoting people??

Let me put it to you this way. I attended 2 classes at one school and they promoted the same student in each class and they were only a week apart.
Another had about 10 blackbelts in it and when I asked how long they have been practicing at the dojang, they said, "a little over a year".

Perhaps you are correct when you state that I am considering it more of a "right" to test than a "privelage" to test. But I think that has become the mindset after seeing students, who clearly were not ready, test on a regular basis.

 

[Tez3]

This is actually the standard Tang Soo Do time requirements to test.

10th gup thru 3rd gup, you are eligble to test every 3 months.
3rd gup to 2nd gup minimum eligiblity to test is 6 months.
2nd gup to 1st gup minimum eligibility to test is 6 months.
1st gup to 1st dan minimum eligibility to test is 1 year.

So, no, I do not think it is a McDojo as they are following the standard time requirements in testing as far as the requirements set forth by the Tang Soo Do International guidelines.

This isn't standard TSD grading, this is your school's TSD grading times set by one organisation which isn't Korean which I find interesting.

If you wanted something difficult, something where it was hard to gain a black belt why did you join this organisation?

 

[Kaygee]

This isn't standard TSD grading, this is your school's TSD grading times set by one organisation which isn't Korean which I find interesting.

If you wanted something difficult, something where it was hard to gain a black belt why did you join this organisation?

It is standard TSD grading. For once, stop pretending like you know everything.....I know it is difficult for you, but try. There isn't one TSD school in this area, or affiliated with my school when we attend tournaments up and down the east coast, that does not follow this grading system.

 

[Tames D]

Look in the mirror if you seek a direction for your gaze.

Grasshopper

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is actually the standard Tang Soo Do time requirements to test.

10th gup thru 3rd gup, you are eligble to test every 3 months.
3rd gup to 2nd gup minimum eligiblity to test is 6 months.
2nd gup to 1st gup minimum eligibility to test is 6 months.
1st gup to 1st dan minimum eligibility to test is 1 year.

So, no, I do not think it is a McDojo as they are following the standard time requirements in testing as far as the requirements set forth by the Tang Soo Do International guidelines.

You seem to be confusing "standard" with "minimum"....

 

[Kaygee]

You seem to be confusing "standard" with "minimum"....

I think you are right, I stated that in an earlier post. After seeing everyone test, according to those time requirements, no matter what their skill, I think it has lost its meaning.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Let me put it to you this way. I attended 2 classes at one school and they promoted the same student in each class and they were only a week apart.
Another had about 10 blackbelts in it and when I asked how long they have been practicing at the dojang, they said, "a little over a year".

Perhaps you are correct when you state that I am considering it more of a "right" to test than a "privelage" to test. But I think that has become the mindset after seeing students, who clearly were not ready, test on a regular basis.

I know this may sound like a crazy idea, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway...

Maybe your instructors think they are better qualified to determine who is ready for promotion than you are...

It is standard TSD grading. For once, stop pretending like you know everything.....I know it is difficult for you, but try. There isn't one TSD school in this area, or affiliated with my school when we attend tournaments up and down the east coast, that does not follow this grading system.

Tez is correct, despite your insulting and rude reply. Your org does not set the standards for Tang Soo Do. Those were set by GGM Hwang Kee. If your org were actually following the stardards of the founder of Tang Soo Do, you'd be studying Soo Bak Do Moo Duk Kwan.
The org your school is affiliated with sets standards only for the minority of schools descended from the teachings of GGM Hwang Kee that choose to be affiliated with your particular org. The majority of schools descended from his teachings (which would include tons of TSD schools, as well as SBD MDK and TKD MDK schools) are not part of that org.
So, clearly, your orgs standard is NOT the standard for TSD.

 

[Tez3]

It is standard TSD grading. For once, stop pretending like you know everything.....I know it is difficult for you, but try. There isn't one TSD school in this area, or affiliated with my school when we attend tournaments up and down the east coast, that does not follow this grading system.

Really, I think I might know a tad more about TSD than you do mate, I've been a black belt in it for over ten years. Your association is one of many in the world. I imagine it's associiates do the same but this doesn't make them correct. Your association is American not Korean so caters for the home market which is fine but don't pretend they are the be all and end all of TSD. You have come on MT and bad mouthed so many other styles claiming knowledge that you've gained from a couple of weeks at a few places that you have no room to speak about 'knowing it all'.

This is 'Tang Soo Do International' which you said you belong to http://www.tangsoodo.org/ they even have a 'business philosophy'

Still I'm sure you will go on your own merry way assuming all other styles are rubbish based on your extensive knowledge. Crack on, I'm done here.

 

[Kaygee]

Crack on, I'm done here.

Somehow, with your reputation, I doubt it. but that would be great!!!

 

[Kaygee]

I know this may sound like a crazy idea, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway...

Maybe your instructors think they are better qualified to determine who is ready for promotion than you are...



Tez is correct, despite your insulting and rude reply. Your org does not set the standards for Tang Soo Do. Those were set by GGM Hwang Kee. If your org were actually following the stardards of the founder of Tang Soo Do, you'd be studying Soo Bak Do Moo Duk Kwan.
The org your school is affiliated with sets standards only for the minority of schools descended from the teachings of GGM Hwang Kee that choose to be affiliated with your particular org. The majority of schools descended from his teachings (which would include tons of TSD schools, as well as SBD MDK and TKD MDK schools) are not part of that org.
So, clearly, your orgs standard is NOT the standard for TSD.

How did we even get into this anyway? The minimum requirements are the minimum requirements in my school and that is what I am dealing with, regardless of which country it is from or what federation it is.