Take out the old & bring in the new

[terryl965]

Why have so many schools that teach Tae Kwon Do stop teaching the self defense aspect of the art. I mean joint lock and take downs and real life self defense, not that show me stuff, you see at every tournament....God Bless America .

 

[MountainSage]

I can only give an opinion about self-defense in general, not directly adressing TKD programs. The following is a general overview of a website I saw on the internet, I think a BJJ school. In this era the best self-defense is learning how to sprint. Most attacks you'll never see coming and a weapon will be involved. All the joint locks and fancy takedowns are going to be next to useless in real life because the situation happen so quickly and with no rhyme or reason you'll have a split second. My advice is a good block/ punch, fast legs, and scream like a gut shot sow. That should cover most situations and be aware of your surrounding at all times.

Mountainsage

 

[Touch Of Death]

Why have so many schools that teach Tae Kwon Do stop teaching the self defense aspect of the art. I mean joint lock and take downs and real life self defense, not that show me stuff, you see at every tournament....God Bless America .

Joint locks and takedowns are effective; however, people tend to get injured when they practice. My best guess is that a lot of instructors avoid the hassle and push what sells. I disagree with Mountain Sage. I think a take down will end the fight just as quick as a kick or a punch. We have a rule in our school; you really need to master falling before you learn to throw; because, theoreticly the other students will be throwing you as you learn to throw them. It is not all that uncommon for a student to break his or her wrist during a takedown excercise. Sucks to be them :uhyeah:
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

Why have so many schools that teach Tae Kwon Do stop teaching the self defense aspect of the art. I mean joint lock and take downs and real life self defense, not that show me stuff, you see at every tournament....God Bless America .

We do practice joint locks, some takedowns, some chokes etc. during class. Real life, throwing, no. We have our share of injuries from sparring and we have gear on then. No, for self defense, we practice to do the most harm–groin, knee, nose/septum, neck, elbow, eye gouge, ear pop, etc. and we practice hard, fast and accurate.

Not much point to breaking wrists and arms in practice, especially the older people. I broke a wrist as a teenager and it didn't mend right then. Can't really use it much as a weapon now. I have to do everything with my left.

Tournament stuff is just that - just to show off breaking power. or technique. But every kick in TKD can be used in self defense. Time and a place for everything. Are you Terry, teaching as in real life? If so, how many injuries do you get? How many students do you retain-not a question, because I know alot of colored belts don't come back when they get a serious injury.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I have to differ with you on this one. As a someone who is well versed in biting mat in Hapkido, I can say that I don't think joint locks lend themselves to injure anymore than punching or kicking.

I think that there was a trend here to focus on "simplified TKD" and today we are reaping the results of that rather poor investment.

 

[Aikikitty]

We have a rule in our school; you really need to master falling before you learn to throw; because, theoreticly the other students will be throwing you as you learn to throw them.

:lurk: I'm sorry to lurk in here when I have absolutely no TKD experience. I just wanted to add my two cents that I agree with the gentleman whom I quoted above. A lot of Aikido is joint locks and throws and it's very important for new people to know how to fall or go down (especially with the throws). Because of that, nearly all of the new people who come in hurt their head/shoulders trying to learn how to roll and they don't come back. The rolls and the soreness turns a lot of people off.

I also agree with Kodanjaclay. When we practice the joint locks, the person we're doing it on taps/slaps either the mat or their leg when it starts to hurt too much and then nage (the person doing it) lets go or moves to complete the technique. After nearly 4 years, I've never seen anyone get hurt (other than just the occasional soreness and we really go at it sometimes) and never seen anyone in class break something. We have an old school TKD black belt in our class who was shocked when he first saw us practice those techniques. He told me the way he was trained in those joint locks, the techniques would break arms/wrists/maimed people, etc. We could do that (and might in real life situations) but then we wouldn't be able to play with our friends anymore. Anyway, the point that I'm finally coming to, is that I think anybody can learn how to do the joint locks themselves--even if they leave out the falls. It just depends how they learn it.

(I also agree that probably the best way out of a fight is to run---but if you aren't able to do so....)

Robyn :asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

Kodanjaclay, you are right about that. Joint locks practiced carefully don't injure. Well I did have a student who had carpal tunnel and she couldn't handle any type of manipulation but she was an exception. I was just thinking of Terry wanting to do self defense more REAL–faster, harder, throws, takedowns. In that aspect, I do think there would be alot more injuries than sparring where you have all the protective gear on. I think it would be hard to practice it real, with that chestgear and headcage etc. And the reason I got my wrist broken as a teenager is because, I reached back and it took my weight and crumpled. Alot more unexpected injuries happen when it gets closer to real fighting. That's what I was trying to say. :asian:

 

[terryl965]

Kodanjaclay, you are right about that. Joint locks practiced carefully don't injure. Well I did have a student who had carpal tunnel and she couldn't handle any type of manipulation but she was an exception. I was just thinking of Terry wanting to do self defense more REAL–faster, harder, throws, takedowns. In that aspect, I do think there would be alot more injuries than sparring where you have all the protective gear on. I think it would be hard to practice it real, with that chestgear and headcage etc. And the reason I got my wrist broken as a teenager is because, I reached back and it took my weight and crumpled. Alot more unexpected injuries happen when it gets closer to real fighting. That's what I was trying to say. :asian:

TigarWoman I mean no dis-respect here but the one's that really get hurt in the long run are the students that train without any physical take downs or joint locks and then try to use it in a real life stituation and finds out that they never really understood how that particilar manuver really worked in the first place,, I believe we as instructors need not give false hope to any student that he or she can defend them self without the proper techniques, and I beleve you can teach this by applaying some pressure on those joints so they can actually see how they work.... God Bless America

 

[MichiganTKD]

Modern Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do does not have joint locks because it is designed to earn points and win tournaments. Traditional old-school Tae Kwon Do will have joint locks, take downs, sweeps etc. However, I believe there should be several conditions to practicing (and yes, they are helpful to know in certain situations):

1. Young kids should NOT practice them. It would be very easy, given the softness of a child's developing bones, to break or dislocate his or her arm, elbow, or shoulder.

2. If possible, these techniques should be practiced on pads or mats to minimize injury. Especially if doing throws or sweeps, practing on a hard floor is definitely not recommended.

3. Students should understand how to fall, roll, and absorb locks before practicing them. It goes without saying these techniques should be reserved for higher students-red and black belts.

 

[terryl965]

Modern Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do does not have joint locks because it is designed to earn points and win tournaments. Traditional old-school Tae Kwon Do will have joint locks, take downs, sweeps etc. However, I believe there should be several conditions to practicing (and yes, they are helpful to know in certain situations):

1. Young kids should NOT practice them. It would be very easy, given the softness of a child's developing bones, to break or dislocate his or her arm, elbow, or shoulder.

2. If possible, these techniques should be practiced on pads or mats to minimize injury. Especially if doing throws or sweeps, practing on a hard floor is definitely not recommended.

3. Students should understand how to fall, roll, and absorb locks before practicing them. It goes without saying these techniques should be reserved for higher students-red and black belts.

As always Michigan TKD you are able to bribg the right amount of good advise to us all.. God Bless You and America

 

[Touch Of Death]

Modern Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do does not have joint locks because it is designed to earn points and win tournaments. Traditional old-school Tae Kwon Do will have joint locks, take downs, sweeps etc. However, I believe there should be several conditions to practicing (and yes, they are helpful to know in certain situations):

1. Young kids should NOT practice them. It would be very easy, given the softness of a child's developing bones, to break or dislocate his or her arm, elbow, or shoulder.

2. If possible, these techniques should be practiced on pads or mats to minimize injury. Especially if doing throws or sweeps, practing on a hard floor is definitely not recommended.

3. Students should understand how to fall, roll, and absorb locks before practicing them. It goes without saying these techniques should be reserved for higher students-red and black belts.

Our school is not Tae Kwon Do, I will admit, but waiting to teach the art until they reach black belt is sort of counter productive; because, then you have black belts walking around that only know kick punch stuff. We have white belts learning to fall from the get go, but our students should be able to undergo a take down at purple(mid belt). I must admit being thrown is upperbelt stuff.
Sean

 

[MichiganTKD]

I don't think students should learn joint locks, throws, sweeps, and takedowns until at least red belt because they will have their hands full learning basics, forms, steps, and the other aspects of Tae Kwon Do to have to worry about the above. Also, until they understand proper mechanics, stances, and movement, manifested through basics practice, it will be difficult to properly execute these techniques.
This is why I dislike teaching strictly self defense to non-Tae kwon Do students. Unless they have the foundation learned through basic training, it would be very difficult to properly execute these techniques.

 

[TigerWoman]

I don't think students should learn joint locks, throws, sweeps, and takedowns until at least red belt because they will have their hands full learning basics, forms, steps, and the other aspects of Tae Kwon Do to have to worry about the above. Also, until they understand proper mechanics, stances, and movement, manifested through basics practice, it will be difficult to properly execute these techniques.
This is why I dislike teaching strictly self defense to non-Tae kwon Do students. Unless they have the foundation learned through basic training, it would be very difficult to properly execute these techniques.

I couldn't see lower belts doing throws, sweeps or takedowns. We don't do throws, but we do sweeps and takedowns. But we aren't allowed those in sparring or tournaments. Just in careful but aggressive practice and just with red belt and up. I agree with MTKD, there are basics to learn first. Taekwondo is a different discipline with different priorities. We have a large curriculum and do alot of physicall training in the colored belt ranks. Sweeps, takedowns are considered advanced technique. BB's have learned how to fall etc. and are less likely to get hurt.

 

[Marginal]

Hmm... I haven't suffered massive (or any) injuries from practicing throws, joint locks, breakfalls etc from white belt onwards. (Heck, had to demonstrate breakfalls for my 6th gup test and we had no mats available.)

Can't really say it's compromised my ability to throw a kick or form a stance either.

 

[steel elbow]

i think you should only be taught arm locks and take downs that would work in a self defence situation.
me personally i would never dream about blocking a punch and then trying to grab the wrist and twist it, i would just block and elbow as hard as i could to the throat. just as effective if not more and less figity hand movements to do

 

[glad2bhere]

I don't know if this will help but I throw it out for whatever its worth.

About a year ago I ran across a news story regarding research that was done at a university (?). In the study people were measured regarding the amount of force that they were applying to a partner versus the amount of force they were receiving back from that partner. What makes this interesting was that (if I am remembering the research correctly) the idea was that the force between the two partners was suppose to be approximately equal. The result of the research showed that the person performing the pressure seemed to uniformly hand out more force (underestimated their effort) while the person receiving the force OVER-estimated what they were getting. If you have ever worked with someone on simply grappling you may see where this is going.

If partner A doles out what he thinks is X-amount of force, partner B will experience that force as a bit more than A intended. When its time to "return the favor" partner B will hand out an OVER-estimated amount of force while intending it to be the equal of what he originally got. As this see-saws back and forth the amount of force will continue to grow while the partners will swear that all they are doing is giving as good as they got. Of course the chances for injury, competition and fear are high and any ONE of these responses will shut-down learning. My guess is that most people are just not willing to deal with this when they can take some KMA classes (TKD, maybe?) where they need never make intentional physical contact and not have to deal with the matter. If I can find the article I'll pass it along. I don't know it for a fact but I will bet the same sort of thing happens when folks are doing "light" contact sparring and things get out of hand.

BTW: This is one of the reasons that I DON'T run my classes like Boot Camp. To deal with the issues I mention above I encourage my students to give constant streams of feedback about the technique and how it is effecting them. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Most Hap Ki Do based schools will teach take downs and joint locks to all comers; however, most schools do that in stages. For example, we will teach a novice a technique that "looks like" the real thing, and then as s/he gets comfortable with it we add more sophisticated levels to that same technique. Falling is taught the first day you come into the school. After 40 years of teaching (thirty in my own school), I have not had any major problems with injuries. In fact, I have more people in class that are injured in their non martial arts activities such as baseball etc.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I think Tigerwoman brought up a good point.
Since Tae Kwon Do is a martial art focusing on strikes, blocks, and kicks, rather than holds, throws, and locks, it stands to reason that most schools will not emphasize these aspects of the program. Instruct in them, but not emphasize them. Therefore, since the students are being taught primarily the striking-blocking-kicking techniques, and getting used to those, they will not be as familiar with the locking-holding-throwing techniques. It is not a major part of our curriculum.
Therefore, the reason I think these techniques should be taught primarily after black belt is that after 1st Dan, when a student's basics in traditional TKD technique are established, he or she can afford to be taught other techniques without having to worry about focusing on the traditional basics. I am not advocating learning a different style BTW, just that after black belt, when a student's TKD basics are established and they aren't struggling with them as much, it is more feasable to introduce these new techniques.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think Tigerwoman brought up a good point.
Since Tae Kwon Do is a martial art focusing on strikes, blocks, and kicks, rather than holds, throws, and locks, it stands to reason that most schools will not emphasize these aspects of the program. Instruct in them, but not emphasize them. Therefore, since the students are being taught primarily the striking-blocking-kicking techniques, and getting used to those, they will not be as familiar with the locking-holding-throwing techniques. It is not a major part of our curriculum.
Therefore, the reason I think these techniques should be taught primarily after black belt is that after 1st Dan, when a student's basics in traditional TKD technique are established, he or she can afford to be taught other techniques without having to worry about focusing on the traditional basics. I am not advocating learning a different style BTW, just that after black belt, when a student's TKD basics are established and they aren't struggling with them as much, it is more feasable to introduce these new techniques.

Shouldn't black belt represent a fundmantal skill level which would include falling and landing? What you are saying mearly suggests a working knowledge of a steril and controled environment.
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

Shouldn't black belt represent a fundmantal skill level which would include falling and landing? What you are saying mearly suggests a working knowledge of a steril and controled environment.
Sean

Shouldn't hapkido or kenpoists learn jump spin heel, 360 round, 360 jump back, 360 crescent, tornado round, triple kick. flying side kick, jump round etc. etc. etc. And do all our 10 forms and the breaks too.. I'm not attacking. Each style has their own strengths and weaknesses. There has to be a time and readiness to learn other stuff. Takedowns and locks are not a priority in our discipline. You just have to respect that. Personally, I would love to learn more of that as a black belt though, I'm ready. Well maybe not for throws. :asian: