Tai Chi as a combat art pt 2

[Streetfigher2006]

Thanks for the heads up Shrewsbury. I also had a feeling that if I went to Chen Village they wouldn't except me and wouldn't teach me real tai chi. But I still think it would be cool to see the village even if I don't learn real tai chi in the end.
​

 

[davemitchel]

Xue Shen,

It is Yang Jwing Ming's Yang style. The dojo I am joining is a YMAA Dojo. Hope that answers the question.

Dave

 

[Xue Sheng]

Tai chi like any martial or health system is based on core movement and principles. Forms and technique can vary, because they are just movement, but core principles are the key to any art. Once core principles are understood they can be applied to anything, anything, thus making any art internal, now of course more often than not it changes the look and feel of things because the basics have been changed.

when one has started to incorporate these principles, the body begins to blend with its surroundings, and is able to naturally use the surrounding "energy" such as solar, gravitational, magnetic, and other natural forces, this brings a strange feeling, because we have not experienced this before and also the ability to increase longevity and makes each movement corect so we can transcend style or system, this is where the "magic" of chi was born, it is the only explanation one could come up with to explain what was going on, it is like describing love, though you can go into much detail, it is really only known when experienced and only understood when embraced.

now some one at this stage really doesn't look like a specific style practitioner and often doesn't look impressive, but once you have experience their ability, you will know what they are capable of, but I must admit, many people, even after first hand experiencing, will be in denial, it seems to simple, to unreal, and will use things such as mind control or illusion as reasoning, rather than realizing perhaps they should change their martial path to reach higher levels of martial skill, many are to arrogant to do this, they would rather be the "master" than the student and have created a situation where they have really not reached their true potential, and this is why the arts have been watered down so badly, because people usually want the easy way out.

Core principles would include many basics thing, now each one of these have many levels, so don't be fooled by their simple appearance.

But some of the core principles would include,

relaxation
single weight
whole but seperate movement
angle
distance
continuos movement
blending
yeilding
seeking forwardness

again each of these few principles have many layers of understanding, with relaxation perhaps being the most intricate. the ability to relax can always improve, always, this alone makes the internal arts a life art.

Throw in the 8 doors and the 5 directions and I agree with almost all of this.

I mean no offense or disrespect but the only thing I disagree with is the magic of Qi part. Qi comes from Traditional Chinese medicine not Tai Chi or CMA practice.

Thank you for responding.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Shen,

It is Yang Jwing Ming's Yang style. The dojo I am joining is a YMAA Dojo. Hope that answers the question.

Dave

Yang Jwing Ming is teaching Yang style but not the Traditional Yang Style that the Yang family currently teaches and most are use to seeing. What the Yang family currently teaches is from Yang Chengfu, who changed the family style to what it is today. Yang Jwing Ming's Yang style comes from pre-Yang Chengfu. It is from Yang Chengfu's Uncle Yang Banhou. He learned it in Taiwan from I believe a teacher named Kao Tao, but I am not 100% sure of his teacher's name.

The Yang Banhou style Yang style is rare. He taught it to Yang Chengfu's older bother Yang Shaohou and few others, he did not like teaching much and Yang Shaohou was a very hard teacher and also had few students. He is alleged to have killed at least one in a fajing demonstration.

Chengfu was a better teacher and liked to teach so his version lives on.

One more thing, Yang jwing Ming is not related to the Yang Tai Chi family as far as I can tell. But his Tai Chi, Kung Fu and Qinna are very good.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I also had a feeling that if I went to Chen Village they wouldn't except me and wouldn't teach me real tai chi. But I still think it would be cool to see the village even if I don't learn real tai chi in the end.​

Actually they will teach you real Tai Chi. But you can also learn real Tai Chi in the USA, you just have to look for the right school.

They will not teach you all of the style nor will any other Tai Chi family, some things are reserved for family and inside students.

But it depends first on you making arrangements with them to go train with them. You cannot just show up and say Hi I'm here from the US teach me real Tai Chi I got a couple hours to kill.

They want to see commitment; 6 months there is a start. There are at least 2 Americans that have been to Chen village studied there for a long time and learned real Chen Style Tai Chi. One is on the East coast and one is on the west coast. There may be more.

But if you are convinced before you even get there that they will not teach you and you approach them with that attitude they will not teach you. From their perspective you are just wasting their time.

Also if you do make arrangements to go there and train it is likely a Chen family member will not train you at first but their advanced students. Once again you are not proven and they do not want to waste their time.

Many Americans want a quick fix and to be accepted as a true student and if they are not immediately brought in and shown how to fight then it isn't real or it doesn't work. And believe me the Tai Chi families know this so they tend to not teach us unless we prove it is worth their time.

 

[Streetfigher2006]

Xue Sheng, thanks for the reply. I do realise and appreciate that they will not teach me everything about Tai chi chuan. I mean there are cetain things in my family and secrets that we keep within ourselves and we dont tell anyone not even a very close friend. But at least if they show me most or a decent amount for self defence than I am alright. Also I do appreciate I need to spend a good amount of time in the village to learn a decent amount. I am young (21yrs). I was actuall planning to stay in the village for a year during school leave after I complete university. May be abit longer if it doesn't get in the way of my career prospects.

I don't live in America. I live in the United Kingdom and I can't find any "authentic" Tai chi teachers in my area. When I say "Authentic", I mean teachers that teach TJC for self defence purposes.

thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng, thanks for the reply. I do realise and appreciate that they will not teach me everything about Tai chi chuan. I mean there are cetain things in my family and secrets that we keep within ourselves and we dont tell anyone not even a very close friend. But at least if they show me most or a decent amount for self defence than I am alright. Also I do appreciate I need to spend a good amount of time in the village to learn a decent amount. I am young (21yrs). I was actuall planning to stay in the village for a year during school leave after I complete university. May be abit longer if it doesn't get in the way of my career prospects.

I don't live in America. I live in the United Kingdom and I can't find any "authentic" Tai chi teachers in my area. When I say "Authentic", I mean teachers that teach TJC for self defence purposes.

thanks

Cool.

Sorry for the USA comment, that got me into trouble once before here on MT, I should have said Westerner.

Last time I talked to anyone about training at Chen village it was, I believe $2000 (American) for a year or 6 months, the amount of time part I do not remember. However that included room, board, and training and Chinese language lessons.

Also there is a senior student of Chen Zhenglei in England, I do not remember where exactly, I will have to look it up. I also believe he was a long time student in Chen village.

There is also another guy that trained in Chen village in Manchester I believe

Liming Yue
http://www.taichicentre.com/masterliming.php

I cannot vouch for what they teach or how complete it is I do not know them. There are also a couple of other Chen Zhenglei groups in England, but I do not know them either.

Once I find the other guys name I will post it.

 

[Shrewsbury]

Throw in the 8 doors and the 5 directions and I agree with almost all of this.

I mean no offense or disrespect but the only thing I disagree with is the magic of Qi part. Qi comes from Traditional Chinese medicine not Tai Chi or CMA practice.

As stated I was only nameing a few of the principles of tai chi, there are many more and as stated each have many layers, including relaxation, stillness and movement, and continuos movement, these take on a whole new meaning later on.

though qi is not the real goal of the internal martial arts they are product of their correct practice, this i sbeyond a doubt.

when stating "the magic of qi", i was referring to what most think of qi, to me qi is hardly magical, nor is it a seperate enity, it is a state of being and has many levels.

TCM has many layers, qi gong being anly a small part, herbs, qigong, massage, and accupuncture make the 4 pillars of TCM, it is the blend of these four that make it a holistic approach. TCM does not creat chi, nor does qigong, i hear many speak of building qi, storing qi, expressing qi , and the like, but to me, ( and I know this may cause some great disagreement) qi a state of being, not a power to be summoned, you can improve your awareness of it, but not build nor store it, you can feel its presence more by being more aware of your total being, but you can not "build" it.

what some would term as a "miracle healing", "religuos healing" or "qi healing" is actually just reaching a state of awareness that causes remission of the desease, now whether this state is brough n by GOD, Qi, Spirits, or the Self is not my place to state such things, I can only state, my opinions based on what I have experienced.

Qi is certainly present in the internal martial arts, not for reasons you may think. they are not the cause of the art or what some one should desire to achive, but rather it is a bi-product of the practice of relaxation and correct alignment in movement of the mind body and what ever else you may beleive exsists. the way qi is presence in the martial arts is not a secret power or foreign power that can be shot out of ones limbs or body, nor is it an invisible sheild protecting us, it is simply a state of awareness / understanding, of how we react to and with our surroundings, being able to understand and blend with the natural energies that affect us in life, such as gravity, magnitism, solar based properties, balance, leverage, and many other things.

I respect your opinion and I certainly do not claim to be be right in any one elses eyes besides my own, but qi, as I beleive it exsists, is certainly present in the internal martial arts, as well as many forms of qi and nei gung.

again this is said with all due respect and good intentions.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As stated I was only nameing a few of the principles of tai chi, there are many more and as stated each have many layers, including relaxation, stillness and movement, and continuos movement, these take on a whole new meaning later on.

though qi is not the real goal of the internal martial arts they are product of their correct practice, this i sbeyond a doubt.

when stating "the magic of qi", i was referring to what most think of qi, to me qi is hardly magical, nor is it a seperate enity, it is a state of being and has many levels.

TCM has many layers, qi gong being anly a small part, herbs, qigong, massage, and accupuncture make the 4 pillars of TCM, it is the blend of these four that make it a holistic approach. TCM does not creat chi, nor does qigong, i hear many speak of building qi, storing qi, expressing qi , and the like, but to me, ( and I know this may cause some great disagreement) qi a state of being, not a power to be summoned, you can improve your awareness of it, but not build nor store it, you can feel its presence more by being more aware of your total being, but you can not "build" it.

what some would term as a "miracle healing", "religuos healing" or "qi healing" is actually just reaching a state of awareness that causes remission of the desease, now whether this state is brough n by GOD, Qi, Spirits, or the Self is not my place to state such things, I can only state, my opinions based on what I have experienced.

Qi is certainly present in the internal martial arts, not for reasons you may think. they are not the cause of the art or what some one should desire to achive, but rather it is a bi-product of the practice of relaxation and correct alignment in movement of the mind body and what ever else you may beleive exsists. the way qi is presence in the martial arts is not a secret power or foreign power that can be shot out of ones limbs or body, nor is it an invisible sheild protecting us, it is simply a state of awareness / understanding, of how we react to and with our surroundings, being able to understand and blend with the natural energies that affect us in life, such as gravity, magnitism, solar based properties, balance, leverage, and many other things.

I respect your opinion and I certainly do not claim to be be right in any one elses eyes besides my own, but qi, as I beleive it exsists, is certainly present in the internal martial arts, as well as many forms of qi and nei gung.

again this is said with all due respect and good intentions.

We do not disagree and I have more exposure to real TCM than you would probably expect a typical westerner to have. In China it is thought of no different than we think of medicine in the US. It is just another medical option to the Chinese and there are certain things it handles better than western medicine and there are certain things western medicine handles better than TCM. Any TCM doctor (OMD) trained in TCM in China will tell you that.

I do not think Qi is magic. Basic TCM if you have strong Qi you are healthy, if you have weak Qi you are sick if you have no Qi you are dead.

And the production of Qi is not what I was talking about, I just was just saying that the definition of Qi does not come from the internal MA.

And yes there is considerably more to Internal Martial Arts than Qi and if I have given you the impression that I believe people are capable of shooting Qi bullets from their hands and knocking people down at a distance, I apologize, nothing could be further from the truth. I have always maintained that any so called Qi master that knocks people down with only his Qi has successfully done one thing… taught his students how to fall down.

And to be honest as far as Qi is concerned I currently agree more with Yang Jwing Ming than the magic Qi people and I am also trying to equate it to Western Anatomy and Physiology. Believe me I do not call it magic nor do I believe it is. I also do not believe its presence makes anyone superior, since we all have it. To me it is simply energy that is all.

But I believe this is taking the post off topic, sorry

 

[Shrewsbury]

My post was not directed at you, nor did you give the impression of magical or shooting qi from your body, i was just making staements based on what many think of qi, i beleive you are not the typical.

And to be honest as far as Qi is concerned I currently agree more with Yang Jwing Ming than the magic Qi people and I am also trying to equate it to Western Anatomy and Physiology. Believe me I do not call it magic nor do I believe it is. I also do not believe its presence makes anyone superior, since we all have it. To me it is simply energy that is all.

there are many doing this, and it is a good thing. the translation of chinese to english is quite perplexing and leaves much to be desired. there are too moany who are caught up in the "qi" and forgoing the "chuan".

again my post was not directed to you nor meant to challenge anything you said or didn't say, it was just my opinion.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My post was not directed at you, nor did you give the impression of magical or shooting qi from your body, i was just making staements based on what many think of qi, i beleive you are not the typical.



there are many doing this, and it is a good thing. the translation of chinese to english is quite perplexing and leaves much to be desired. there are too moany who are caught up in the "qi" and forgoing the "chuan".

again my post was not directed to you nor meant to challenge anything you said or didn't say, it was just my opinion.

No problem, I didn't take it as a challenge, I just wanted to make sure I was not sounding like a Tye Chee hippy

If I had taken it as a challenge I would have had to build up my Qi and start shooting qi energy balls

 

[Xue Sheng]

To Streetfigher2006

Student of Chen Zhenglei in England

Wang Haijun
Traditionally trained in Chen Village in Henan
http://www.wanghaijun.com/

 

[dmax999]

My thought is people who like to fight and spar don't like Tai Chi. Those who like Tai Chi don't like to fight and spar. This is generally the case and reason that so many Tai Chi people can't fight, but not always the case.

How many classes of Tai Chi have you had where the exercise is to have someone throw realistic, non preplanned attacks at you to defend? How often do you practice you attacks on a heavy bag? How often do you do free form sparring?

While some will have done the above, almost every Tai Chi school does not. That is why so many think Tai Chi is not useful. If you train Tai Chi in a realistic way and follow the correct rules you will see how effective it can be.

China has no secrets to Tai Chi, masters have no secrets to Tai Chi. People good at it just train better then the rest.

 

[Streetfigher2006]

China has no secrets to Tai Chi, masters have no secrets to Tai Chi. People good at it just train better then the rest.

I wish this were true, but there are certain secrets most martial arts that us westerners will never know or understand unless they are taught to us.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My thought is people who like to fight and spar don't like Tai Chi. Those who like Tai Chi don't like to fight and spar. This is generally the case and reason that so many Tai Chi people can't fight, but not always the case.

How many classes of Tai Chi have you had where the exercise is to have someone throw realistic, non preplanned attacks at you to defend? How often do you practice you attacks on a heavy bag? How often do you do free form sparring?

I have not had the opportunity to do this for a long time because many in Tai Chi no longer want this and that to me is a very sad thing.

While some will have done the above, almost every Tai Chi school does not. That is why so many think Tai Chi is not useful. If you train Tai Chi in a realistic way and follow the correct rules you will see how effective it can be.

China has no secrets to Tai Chi, masters have no secrets to Tai Chi. People good at it just train better then the rest.

I wish this were true, but there are certain secrets most martial arts that us westerners will never know or understand unless they are taught to us.

Actually what dmax999 is saying about the training in China is, for the most part, true.

In China they train 5 to 7 days a week with a sifu and if they do not practice they are kicked out. They train very hard as do many in the US but they have the benefit of having the Sifu there with them as they do where we in the US do not.

Are there secrets that the Chen family only keeps for the family? Likely. But it does not mean you will not go there and train hard and learn a true CMA.

But you can go to the parks in any major city and China and just learn the form for health with no MA. You can also learn MA there, it is just those people are harder to find.

If you go to Beijing and go to a good Yiquan sifu and dedicate the proper time to yiquan you WILL leave a good martial artist and any secrets the sifu may or may not withhold are really not much to worry about in this case.

But in many training situation in China you also have to understand if you come form the West they are not entirely sure you are truly serious about CMA and you will possibly need to prove to them that you are. I recently talked to a couple of guys that training Bagua and Xingyi in Beijing and I am fairly certain they are learning the real deal. The training is not easy and it is traditional. If you go there and the Sifu insists you need to be able to stand in San Ti Shi for 30 minutes or he does not feel you are serious then if you want to learn from that Sifu you will train and learn to stand in San Ti Shi for 30 minutes. If you don't he will not waste his time teaching you because to him you are not serious.

And to be honest if you go to a Xingyi Sifu in Beijing that tells you that San Ti Shi is unnecessary I suggest run don't walk and find another Sifu.

 

[dmax999]

I agree with most of what Xue Sheng said.

I have talked to those who have been to Chen village on multiple trips. The claim I heard is they train Tai Chi very hard, but do not practice fighting with it. In other words they can be beaten by westerners who do practice in contact sparring. I can't claim this is true, but its what I have been told. I was also told it is still worth visiting, just don't expect the super Tai Chi Masters to be there, but they are probably the best in the world at the forms (Which is some people's focus)

The reason "secrets" are kept from you is because you are not capeable of understanding them. If you try to teach beginners this will become painfully obvious. The teachers that demand 30 minutes of San Ti probably just don't think its worth their time to teaching the beginning stuff. They have taught Pi Chun 1000 times and are sick of making the same corrections. It is not because they have secrets they want to hide from you.

Just my opinion after years of training. Feel free to disagree!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree with most of what Xue Sheng said.

I have talked to those who have been to Chen village on multiple trips. The claim I heard is they train Tai Chi very hard, but do not practice fighting with it. In other words they can be beaten by westerners who do practice in contact sparring. I can't claim this is true, but its what I have been told. I was also told it is still worth visiting, just don't expect the super Tai Chi Masters to be there, but they are probably the best in the world at the forms (Which is some people's focus)

The reason "secrets" are kept from you is because you are not capeable of understanding them. If you try to teach beginners this will become painfully obvious. The teachers that demand 30 minutes of San Ti probably just don't think its worth their time to teaching the beginning stuff. They have taught Pi Chun 1000 times and are sick of making the same corrections. It is not because they have secrets they want to hide from you.

Just my opinion after years of training. Feel free to disagree!

But I don't want to disagree

I cannot dispute the Chen village stuff. The people that I have dealt with or know of that have been there also train with other long time Chen family students so it may be that they learn their fighting outside of Chen village.

The only Tai Chi style I have been involved with that seemed to talk about fighting and applications and work on applications early in the training was Cheng Manching style from William CC Chen (Not the Chen tai chi family). All others take a long time to get there. I have also heard that the Tung/Dong family also gets into actual applications and fighting as well. I have trained with a student of Sifu Tung and he is or was big on application but he is not a member of the Tung/Dong family.

Chen Zhenglei is very skilled at fighting I am told, but he does not teach it to his students in the US. Also it is my understanding that Chen Xiaowang is also skilled but does not teach it in the US. Xiaowang does have a senior student in the US who I am told does teach fighting and application however.

Sadly Tai Chi is being taught less and less as a true MA by the families. This is not because they can't it has more to do with the students they get. Face it they make more money teaching it for health than they would fighting. To get to fighting; first takes too long and second hurts.

It is my understanding though that in general if you find a true Zhaobao style Tai Chi teacher that they will teach it as a martial art. Zhaobao is the only tai chi I have seen that trains 1 leg push hands too. But it must be a "True" Zhaobao teacher. I have only seen one so far that claim Zhaobao lineage that truly does not have it, does not know the fighting side of it, but his form is amazing. So even in Zhaobao things are starting to change. But the few real Zhaobao people I have talked to fight.

As to the San Ti Shi, I never meant to imply they were keeping secrets. I was basically saying that if a student is not willing to listen to them early on and train San Ti Shi as they want the student to, then they have no reason to think that student is serious and they do not wish to waste their time because, as you said, they have taught Pi Chun 1000 times and are sick of making the same corrections.

My reason for bringing up Xingiquan and Yiquan is because if one is interested in learning an internal CMA and fighting you are more likely to find it there. This is not to say a good Baguazhang teacher will not teach you fighting, I just have little experience of Bagua in China but according to the few I have talked to that train it there they to can fight.

 

[East Winds]

Streetfighter2006,

As always Xue Sheng is spot on. Wang Haijun, Leming Yue, or the Koskubas (Karl and Eva) are all trained by the Chen family(Chen Zheng Lei and Chen Xiaowang and also invite them over to the UK teach. Check out their websites for seminars).

I have worked very briefly with all these UK teachers and can recommend them all without hesitation.

Very best wishes

 

[Streetfigher2006]

OH my goodness. I nearly forgot the most important question to ask. Does Tai chi have a Chin na(pressure point) system intergrated into the style?

Thanks I almost forgot to ask.

 

[dmax999]

Actually let me go a little off the path of the theories of "True" Tai Chi.

Tai Chi has some basic principles. Such as keep relaxed, don't fight force with force, keep spine straight, etc. There are actually no real secrets in it, the only thing close would be forms that the families keep to themselves.

If you look at CMC, and William CC Chen, it is possible to believe they are true fighters with Tai Chi. Neither of them are part of any offical family lines either. That means, to me at least, it is possible to become an effective MA fighter using Tai Chi without being accepted as part of a family line. If you go to a William CC Chen seminar he will keep no secrets from you at all. The only information you will miss are pieces of information that are beyond your skill level.

It has been my experience, from numerous schools, that "secrets" are a way for a teacher to keep students when he really has nothing to offer them. Its usually a scam, right along with "This is the only school that teaches the real version of this MA" (I've walked out of a school that pulled this line on me after spending years there, they were full of it and that was the last straw for me).