Tai Chi as a combat art pt 2

[Streetfigher2006]

Hi all,

I just want to start by saying sorry to all the members of the forum for my comments about Tai chi not being a valuable or/and useable self-defence art. Again my comments were not written to try and belittle the wonderful of taichi it's just I don't understand the art enough perhaps. If I can get posters to post their opinions and experiences I could probably get a better idea of how effective/useful the art is as a whole and how well it fairs against other arts be it traditional or mixed martial arts.

I am in a bit of a rush because I have to get some work done. I may make a few mistakes while typing. a few questions that have been at the back of mind is. bare in mind these are questions aimed at people that have had the experience/ or used TC(tai chi) for their protection

1) How effective is TC (tai chi) against the common street criminal?
2) how effective is TC against a trained fighter?
3)how long does it take to be efficient enough to use it on the street?
4) Does tai chi have techniques for multiple attackers? if yes have you been able to use them

please keep this a civil discusion and refrain from flaming.

thanks

SF2006

 

[Flying Crane]

You probably are not going to get many clean answers here, because they don't exist. Tai Chi is difficult to understand, most who do it do not understand it, and that goes for those who are "teaching" it as well.

that being said, understand that in the hands of one who really understands it, and who has really developed their ability with it, it is absolutely devastating. But you won't find these people in your run of the mill "Bob's School of Tai Chi".

It is effective, and it addresses all aspects of fighting. It is useful against a street thug, or a trained fighter, but it does take a long time to reach that ability, and most never do. It takes a competent teacher, and those are rare. It takes a huge commitment to training, and those willing to do so are rare.

Poorly done Tai Chi is absolutely worthless in a fight, and it will get you killed if you think you can use it.

You may never get a chance to witness Tai Chi at a high level, and for combat. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's OK to doubt it, as in most cases your doubts are probably well founded. But don't think it is all like that.

 

[Flying Crane]

I wanted to add another thought here:

Tai Chi Chuan should be among the rarest of martial arts. It is so rare to find a teacher who truly understands it and can teach it effectively. And for a student to also reach a high level is a rare event. A good teacher could teach many students in his career, but only a handful will become truly accomplished in tai chi. Many more will think they are, but it's not true.

But instead the art has become among the most common, at least in some areas. The health aspect is touted, and since "teachers" of the health aspect don't need to prove their fighting skills, it has become accepted. I would say that many of these teachers for health don't even understand it on that level. But you can't prove it decisively, so they just carry on and the art becomes more diluted. And more common. And extremely commercial.

Practically every gym of YMCA or other athletic/health-minded facility has a tai chi "teacher" on staff. It's what the masses want, so that's what they give them. But it's really a mess and in most cases not worth your time.

 

[The Kai]

I may never get a chance to see the Yeti or the Loch ness monster either!! So therefore they must exist as well?

 

[TaiChiTJ]

One of my favorite sites to learn about tai chi and the other neija arts is Mike Patterson's Hsing I site. would hazard an opinion that Mike knows how to fight with tai chi.

Here is a bit of Mike's bio:

ShrFu Patterson was the All Taiwan Full Contact Martial Arts Champion in 1975-1976, an all inclusive contest open to all styles and all ranks. He was the youngest champion ever in the history of the event and retired undefeated. He has since trained Numerous World, International and National Full Contact Champions himself. He served as the West Coast Regional Director of the United States Chinese KuoShu Federation from 1996 to 2001 and now serves as a special advisor for the same organization on the internal martial arts, he was Men’s Coach of the 1996 World Team U.S.A. Inside Kung Fu Magazine chose him as The 1997 Coach Of The Year, having trained so many successful Full Contact KuoShu Fighters for competition. He has trained a total of 25 World, International, National and Regional Chinese KuoShu Full Contact Champions between the years of 1994 and 2000. He retired from this venue of coaching at the end of the year 2000 (at least for the present) to focus more time into teaching and disseminating these internal disciplines. He has served as consultant for military, law enforcement and professional athletics programs.

He has an extensive collection of video clips online from the instructional tapes he markets. He teaches a chen family style of tai chi he calls small chen and the video clip has him explaining the applications of the first few moves of it.

He has opened a school in Las Vegas.

Lucky residents of Vegas, eh?

http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/index.html

 

[TaiChiTJ]

By the way, Mike Patterso has also invented a condensed system of training using internal principles derived from the neija arts he calls RSPCT, I think.

http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/RSPCT.html

 

[Streetfigher2006]

Hi again,
Just read some of the comments. Hopefully more will be coming in real soon. OK so I just have another question that i thought of. Having read some of the responses Flying Crane came up with an interesting point about finding an authentic teacher of the art of Tai chi. Well my question is where are alll the good teachers at? I was reading an article about someone who traveled to the Chen Village which is where supposedly the art of Tai chi was born. I am travelling to China net year and will probably visit this place if I can. Is there authenic taichi here?

 

[Jade Tigress]

Where's XS when you him. heh.

 

[pete]

michael, thanks for putting so much out there for me to respond to... hope you don't mind me quoting as such, but,,, well, here goes:

You probably are not going to get many clean answers here, because they don't exist. Tai Chi is difficult to understand, most who do it do not understand it, and that goes for those who are "teaching" it as well..

i'd venture to say this is true for most, if not all martial arts... at least those i've had exposure to.

that being said, understand that in the hands of one who really understands it, and who has really developed their ability with it, it is absolutely devastating. But you won't find these people in your run of the mill "Bob's School of Tai Chi"...

ditto. replace the words 'tai chi' with kenpo. see...

It is effective, and it addresses all aspects of fighting. It is useful against a street thug, or a trained fighter, but it does take a long time to reach that ability, and most never do. It takes a competent teacher, and those are rare. It takes a huge commitment to training, and those willing to do so are rare."

hmmm, i detect a pattern. 'tai chi' / 'kenpo'

*** note: huge commitment sometimes means SEEKING OUT that competent teacher, rather than going to the closest guy in town, although some get lucky! ***

Poorly done Tai Chi is absolutely worthless in a fight, and it will get you killed if you think you can use it..

whoa, not again! sam ting... only the tai chi guy will probably know down deep that his stuff is useless and actually may surprise himself in altercation... the kenpo guy may likely err on the side of overestimating his ability, or even arrogance

** note, kenpo used only as example because of my personal background and experience in that art ***

You may never get a chance to witness Tai Chi at a high level, and for combat. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's OK to doubt it, as in most cases your doubts are probably well founded. But don't think it is all like that.

exactly!

... the art has become among the most common, at least in some areas. The health aspect is touted, and since "teachers" of the health aspect don't need to prove their fighting skills, it has become accepted. I would say that many of these teachers for health don't even understand it on that level. But you can't prove it decisively, so they just carry on and the art becomes more diluted. And more common. And extremely commercial..

health practitioners beware. if you are not learning the martial, you are not getting the lion's share of health benefits.

Practically every gym of YMCA or other athletic/health-minded facility has a tai chi "teacher" on staff. It's what the masses want, so that's what they give them. But it's really a mess and in most cases not worth your time.

usually the case, but sometimes there is a diamond in the rough.

pete

 

[charyuop]

I am sorry I am not one of those who used Tai Chi to save my butt...but after all an opinion is accepted by every MA player without him/her having had to save their butt using their MA....don't see why a Tai Chi player can't.

All said here so far is true, but we as always keep going to the mythology field. True, some people might never get to feel the Chi, some people will never learn how to use it, some people will be lacking of the right relaxation and so on...
I personally (unfortunately) don't train the MA part of it, but I take into deep consideration the applications for what is called "intent".
I playingly used some Tai Chi movements with a friend (an Aikido guy) and some of them came out pretty good (remember I never train MA so I lack of reflex, instinct and correctness in application). Do I feel Chi? Heck no and probably never will. Could have I hurt the guy in few occasions? Heck yes.
Correct Tai Chi is based on Chi, but if you learn the movement very well with their application and you learn about your body and how to keep always a very good balance, they work even with muscolar strength.
As per Vs against another trained fighter...depends on level of training and personal skills.

 

[Streetfigher2006]

Does anyine know anything about my question of chen village?

 

[Flying Crane]

Does anyine know anything about my question of chen village?

The Chen Village is the headquarters of Chen style tai chi, which is considerered to be the original system, and more oriented on fighting. I've never been there, but I know that people do visit there to train. I don't know how much they teach to visitors, esp. if you are a complete beginnner, but if you are going to China and get the chance, definitely visit Chen Village.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chen is the root family and I would not suggest going to Chen village and picking a fight if that helps answer yor question.

I believe it is one of the first postures of the majority of Chen forms “Buddha’s attendant pounds mortar” sorry I may have the name wrong here.

There is what appears to be a heel stamp and I have been told Chen family members can crush small stones with that.

But I have not seen it with my own eyes and I could tell you who told me but I would likely get accused of dropping names.

 

[Shrewsbury]

I was trying to stay away from this, but here I go.

First off if you think you can go any where, including china and have some one share "real" tai chi with you, you are sadly mistaken, you are an outsider and will be treated as such. does this mean they are rude and won't do anything? no, but they will never reveal what the art is truly like.
also if you think some one is more legit because they are in or from china, wake up, that is nonesense, more "fake" masters come from china than just about any where else.

Tai chi is not based on chi, or "secret" methods, but on correct core principles that can only be learned by experiencing, this is why most iron shirt is external, to go through the process of learning iron shirt internally you must be struck countless times for many years.
when core principles are honed and understood the movement becomes effortless, the skeletal and muscular systems align, and circulation improves, thus promoting longevity. because the body must be relaxed to move correctly, the older you get the better you are, and this is where the myths arrive from.

how about the 60 year old, 5'3", 140 pound person being able to hit you and send you acrossed the room? or be able to throw you with no effort and is faster than you? are these myths? I will tell you first hand, no they are not. can people use tai chi for combat? better than you could ever imagine.

 

[charyuop]

Shrewsbury, sorry English is not my first language and I might not understand your point fully here. What you mean when you say understand the "core"? You say Chi is not the main thing (and I agree with that, coz I am 100% sure Tai Chi is effective also with muscular strenght) and you say the form will come out good on its own once you own the core.
Ok, if you take away Chi and form, what is left to understand???
Sorry, I might have just misunderstood your words...

 

[Xue Sheng]

First off if you think you can go any where, including china and have some one share "real" tai chi with you, you are sadly mistaken, you are an outsider and will be treated as such. does this mean they are rude and won't do anything? no, but they will never reveal what the art is truly like.
also if you think some one is more legit because they are in or from china, wake up, that is nonesense, more "fake" masters come from china than just about any where else.

Yes and yes. Take that a step further; many of the legitimate masters out of China that come here do not take Americans seriously either. So you need to prove yourself to them as well if you really want to learn the style.

Tai chi is not based on chi, or "secret" methods, but on correct core principles that can only be learned by experiencing, this is why most iron shirt is external, to go through the process of learning iron shirt internally you must be struck countless times for many years.
when core principles are honed and understood the movement becomes effortless, the skeletal and muscular systems align, and circulation improves, thus promoting longevity. because the body must be relaxed to move correctly, the older you get the better you are, and this is where the myths arrive from. .

Core principles? Could you please explain this a bit more?

I agree with what you are saying here, I am just not sure what you are defining as “core”

how about the 60 year old, 5'3", 140 pound person being able to hit you and send you acrossed the room? or be able to throw you with no effort and is faster than you? are these myths? I will tell you first hand, no they are not. can people use tai chi for combat? better than you could ever imagine.

Actually he was 65 and 5’5” tall and probably 140 lbs give or take. Or at least that was my experience. Oh and a 50 year old about 5’6” I believe, also fairly thin, but he also dropped me with Qinna. Both are Chinese. But to give the US a plug I also got hit rather hard, with little effort on the hitter’s part, by a 5’5” tall American CMA teacher as well. I won't include the American CMA teacher that damn near knocked me out with Xingyi becuase he is taller than me.

 

[davemitchel]

I am not the great expert, but from what I understand the Traditional Yang form as passed down from Yang Cheng-fu via Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo teaches the martial aspect. This includes:
Barehand Taiji Solo Sequence, Applications from the Solo Sequence, Fast Taiji training, Still Meditation, Qi Circulation Training, Jin Training, Pushing Hands and its Applications, Taiji Fighting Set and Deeper Martial Applications, Taiji Free Pushing Hands and Sparring.
Taiji Sword Taiji Sword Solo Sequence, Qi Enhancement and Extension Training, Martial Applications, Matching Forms, Sparring.
Taiji SaberTaiji Saber Solo Sequence, Martial Applications, Matching Forms and Sparring.
Taiji Spear and Staff Individual Spear and Staff Martial Techniques, Sticking and Matching Practice, Long Weapons Sparring
Taiji Ball Listening and Understanding Jin Training, Adhere-Stick Jin Training, Qi Enhancement and Extension Training, Two-person Taiji Ball Training.

I will be joining a dojo in my area shortly which teaches T'ai Chi for combat. Just busy checking their credentials. How effective it is? I don't know, but I believe it will be.

Dave

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am not the great expert, but from what I understand the Traditional Yang form as passed down from Yang Cheng-fu via Fu Zhong Wen, Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo teaches the martial aspect.

The lineage depends on which student of Yang Chengfu you are talking about. And there is another lineage from Yang Banhao (chengfu's uncle) but it is very rare, the only example I have seen of this so far is Yang Jwing Ming's Yang style (he is not related to the Yang Tai Chi family however)

Yang Chengfu/Kwan Sai Hung/etc

Yang Chengfu/Tung Ying Cheih/the rest of the Tung Dong Family

Yang Chengfu/Tung Ying Cheih/Sifu Chu (this is my lineage)

Yang Chengfu/Cheng Manching/CC Chen (and I have trained a bit here too)

Yang Chengfu/Yang Zhenming/Yang Zhendao

Yang Chengfu/Yang Zhendao

Yang Chengfu/Yang Zhenming/Gin soon chu/Vincent Chu

There are many of them out there that are legitimate.

As to the curriculum, that sound right, but there are various types of push hands

 

[Shrewsbury]

Tai chi like any martial or health system is based on core movement and principles. Forms and technique can vary, because they are just movement, but core principles are the key to any art. Once core principles are understood they can be applied to anything, anything, thus making any art internal, now of course more often than not it changes the look and feel of things because the basics have been changed.

when one has started to incorporate these principles, the body begins to blend with its surroundings, and is able to naturally use the surrounding "energy" such as solar, gravitational, magnetic, and other natural forces, this brings a strange feeling, because we have not experienced this before and also the ability to increase longevity and makes each movement corect so we can transcend style or system, this is where the "magic" of chi was born, it is the only explanation one could come up with to explain what was going on, it is like describing love, though you can go into much detail, it is really only known when experienced and only understood when embraced.

now some one at this stage really doesn't look like a specific style practitioner and often doesn't look impressive, but once you have experience their ability, you will know what they are capable of, but I must admit, many people, even after first hand experiencing, will be in denial, it seems to simple, to unreal, and will use things such as mind control or illusion as reasoning, rather than realizing perhaps they should change their martial path to reach higher levels of martial skill, many are to arrogant to do this, they would rather be the "master" than the student and have created a situation where they have really not reached their true potential, and this is why the arts have been watered down so badly, because people usually want the easy way out.

Core principles would include many basics thing, now each one of these have many levels, so don't be fooled by their simple appearance.

But some of the core principles would include,

relaxation
single weight
whole but seperate movement
angle
distance
continuos movement
blending
yeilding
seeking forwardness

again each of these few principles have many layers of understanding, with relaxation perhaps being the most intricate. the ability to relax can always improve, always, this alone makes the internal arts a life art.

 

[charyuop]

when one has started to incorporate these principles, the body begins to blend with its surroundings, and is able to naturally use the surrounding "energy" such as solar, gravitational, magnetic, and other natural forces, this brings a strange feeling, because we have not experienced this before and also the ability to increase longevity and makes each movement corect so we can transcend style or system, this is where the "magic" of chi was born, it is the only explanation one could come up with to explain what was going on, it is like describing love, though you can go into much detail, it is really only known when experienced and only understood when embraced.

It is against Tai Chi, but you can't imagine the feeling I have had reading this description.....ENVY!!!!!!!!!!!
From a reading I had once...
A student asks his Master: "Master how long it will be till I can feel the Chi flowing within me?". The MAster tried to give an answer to this difficult question: "I can't tell you exactly, it depends on the person and his way of understanding and practicing...it might be 2 or 3 years, but it is not sure." Then the student came up with a quick solution: "Yes, but Master if I train very hard continuosly, I put all my will and strenght in it how long will it take?" and the Master answered: "10 years".

I am like that student. I am skeptical, but hearing all people talking about the Chi makes me wanna feel it NOW and the lack of the feeling sometimes brings a certaincy of never been able to feel it.
Gladly most of the times I manage to get back into the right path