Taegue Il Jang application

[Daniel Sullivan]

Some people, a lot of people, maybe even most people, do not have all the pieces. But instead of seeking out more pieces of the puzzle, they instead grab pieces from another art and use those pieces to fill in the blank spaces. Do that too much, and you end up with a puzzle that looks completely different. Then when discussions such as these come up, you are looking at your puzzle, while I am looking at mine, and we each think we are looking at the same picture when in reality we are not.

Personally, I don't mind if people do that. I've seen some very cool items come from that approach. But if one chooses to do that, be honest about what you are doing, why you are doing, it and don't knock the donor arts that you selected in order to build your own art; they made it possible for you to do so.

And don't tell people who practice those donor arts, or arts that are contemporaries of your new art that your creation is superior to what they practice. Your creation is your creation, and may have tons of merit. Who knows? Your students may want to spread your codified art and open schools in order to do so. But antagonizing practitioners of the donor arts and that of your contemporaries shows immaturity and insecurity.

 

[puunui]

I would be interested in an expansion of this statement if you are minded to write one.

You are a smart guy, you don't need for me to explain the applications in the kukki taekwondo poomsae. They jump out at you, don't they? One example, which is historical more than anything else since it isn't used so much anymore. The opening sequence in taegeuk 3 jang, the front kick followed by double punch, was a famous combination used by jidokwan members during the 60s at tournaments. It is said that that combination was GM YH Park, Sr's favorite, which he used during his days as an defeated korean national champion. Stuff like that.

I think adoption of terminology is a good first step. At the very least, it's a basic recognition of comity and could lead to more down the line.

I agree, if your intent is to become part of kukki taekwondo, then the adoption of korean terminology is a good first step. But frankly, I do not believe that is what is going on here. In other words, what you speak of I have no doubt is what is going on with you, but I wouldn't be so quick to extend the same to others.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This is something to highlight as to the differences between TKD and karate and why bunkai might be a low yield effort at least with regard to KKW poomsae. Within the Okinawan karate I am familiar with, the motion within the kata are only regarded as starting places. It is 'fine' to change up the directional flow or the bodily posture of the presenter to come up with a viable application of the form. Some of the explicit usages I've been taught in fact append footwork not even in the kata originally itself, and senior karate-ka even exhort their juniors to not be bound by the embusen of the form when seeking to master the meaning of the kata.

Excellent post. Forms can be an excellent catalog of principles, tactics and strategies. By recognizing these principles we can derive valuable material of a very practical nature.

I've seen several interpretations in regards to the opening movements presented in the OP video.

• The left hand is a hammer fist to the lower body of the attacker during a grab/grapple attempt coming in from the left side. Notice the left arm re-chambers as the next portion (straight punch) is set in motion. Using more of a realistic movement pattern, rather than a stiff walking stance, the rechambering could entail and upward, reverse elbow with the left arm as it 'rechambers'. This is a fluid follow up strike to a hammer fist strike to the lower body and will typically engage the upper torso area from the clavicle to the jaw area. Or, as an alternative, the rechambered hand is grasping something (limb/clothing) of the attacker to off-balance him. This is followed by a straight punch to the mid-section. An alternative to this application would use the 'straight punch' as more of a forward-linear forearm strike to the collar bone or neck area as a probable target since the expected reaction of a hammer fist to the groin area would be for the attacker to be leaning over forward at the waist.
• Basic forward take down. The top portion of the 'down block' is actually is actually a jamming or impact motion to the left of the incoming attacker's center line. In combatives circles, this is a common tactic referred to as a 'half-spear'. On the down motion of the 'down block' the left hand comes in contact with the attacker's left side neck area. Again, this is a common follow up tactic from a 'spear', 'half-spear', 'elbow spike' or forearm to brachial plexus strike. The right hand meanwhile is grasping the left arm or closest available body part. This 'hip chamber' movement in many Karate schools is explained as a grasping/pulling in and/or off-balancing movement. For example it is conveyed as such in the Pinan and other katas. The 90 degree turn would serve to off-balance the attacker, bringing them to a bending over position to your left and their right. Their upper body would be roughly perpendicular to the ground. Thrusting forward with the right foot while striking with the right hand/arm would open up the left side of the attacker, from the left temple to the left clavicle area as a striking target area. The form demonstrates a straight punch which could be applicable to several soft body targets in this area or as an option, an open hand strike such as a spear hand or edge-of-hand or even the knife edged portion of the underside of the forearm to these target areas. A conclusion type movement would open up for a sweep, kick to the lower extremities, or even into a hip throw or hip 'jam' or a plethora of other conclusions.

There are others but for the moment I'm running low on time. The point is that this movement sequence can be expanded into principles of locking, throwing, off-balancing, continuous flow, follow up movements based upon the probable body positioning of the attacker at various stages of the sequence and conclusions.

 

[puunui]

This is something to highlight as to the differences between TKD and karate and why bunkai might be a low yield effort at least with regard to KKW poomsae. Within the Okinawan karate I am familiar with, the motion within the kata are only regarded as starting places. It is 'fine' to change up the directional flow or the bodily posture of the presenter to come up with a viable application of the form. Some of the explicit usages I've been taught in fact append footwork not even in the kata originally itself, and senior karate-ka even exhort their juniors to not be bound by the embusen of the form when seeking to master the meaning of the kata.

You are correct. This is a philosophical and fundamental difference in the way okinawan karate sees kata, and how japanese karate and taekwondo see forms. Okinawa is a relatively small place, where "everybody knows your name" so to speak, especially 100 or 200 years ago. Because of that, and also given the relaxed personality of the okinawan people, things are relaxed and individualized. There were no big large organizations dictating how do this or that, and all efforts to move in this direction has failed, because the people are just not into it. If you wish to do something, cool. Do whatever you want and change the form if you want. There are many different versions of the same kata, even among those who learned from the same teacher. But the schools and organizations are relatively small, with a tiny international following, if any. There was really no sparring, so this applied to kata mainly.

Japanese karate and the Japanese people are completely opposite. In Japanese culture there is a perfect way to do everything and there is no deviation from anything. They way the head of the organizations wants it is the way it will be, no questions asked. I don't know if it is the same today, but back in the day, you could walk into almost any JKA karate school and receive the same basic training using the same fundamentals if your teacher graduated from the JKA Instructor Course. This rigidity in thinking and technical standard held for both sparring and kata. Everyone looks the same, everyone wears the exact same uniform, bows the same way, starts and ends class the same way. Sparring and competition is heavily emphasized, in the model of judo and kendo. There is a strong warrior military mentality which is an undercurrent for everything.

Taekwondo is an interesting blend of both, and in my opinion is modeled more after the american military than either japan or okinawa. Taekwondo has the same sort of free flow attitude within its art, but this is expressed mainly in kyorugi or sparring. You can do and train whatever you want, within the context of the rules. If you wish to specialize in head kicks, you can. You like body shots? No problem, if you can win with that, then go for it. Kyorugi is looked upon as the place in which to express one's individuality and creativity, in much the same way that generals have their own particular style and strategies for warfare.

However, when it comes to poomsae, and other ritualized forms of the art, things become more unified, just like in the US military, where everyone salutes the same and does close order drill the same. Now does close order drill and rifle twirling and what the honor guard does have application to actual warfare? I suppose you could reverse engineer battlefield applications of those rifle twirls, but to me it would be a waste of time. My teacher would say that the close order drill done in the US is so perverted that he would rather see the soldiers performing close order drill correctly rather than in easter egg hunts for battlefield applications, which from his view would be an exercise in futility, since they miss the whole point of having standardized performance of these things in the first place. Poomsae, like close order drill and marching in formation and the like, is looked upon by the taekwondo pioneers and the US military as places of tradition, and are not to be changed. However, as far as actual field operations go, taekwondoin are constantly looking for more efficient and more advanced methods to carry out the mission, in much the same way the US military does the same thing.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yes, a low block can also be considered a hammerfist blow, perhaps aimed at the groin, bladder, femoral nerve, common peroneal nerve...

I wanted to touch base on this as it is important. A solid hammer fist (or other strike such as a knee spike) can be very effective against the targets underlined above in the quote. The groin is often thought of as a great target, and it can be, but it often isn't a be-all-to-end-all target. Many bouncers will tell you that simply grazing that target area as opposed to striking it can have a better result, particularly if the individual is intoxicated. This portion of the form I feel offers a great tactic, against several possible targets. And it is important to realize that in a chaotic fight you may not always have the luxury of seeing the target.

Thank you for pointing out those target areas.

 

[puunui]

Do you think the form is meant to have other meaning later on for more advanced taekwondoin like the peeling an onion metaphor? Or not?

I do, but perhaps not in the way you think. I haven't really studied the philosophy of the taegeuk poomsae as deeply as I should. You have to ask mastercole about that. But the yudanja poomsae is written in levels, and they are embedded with the taekwondo journey from low to high rank. No other style has that as far as I know, certainly not the okinawan kata.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

This is something to highlight as to the differences between TKD and karate and why bunkai might be a low yield effort at least with regard to KKW poomsae. Within the Okinawan karate I am familiar with, the motion within the kata are only regarded as starting places. It is 'fine' to change up the directional flow or the bodily posture of the presenter to come up with a viable application of the form. Some of the explicit usages I've been taught in fact append footwork not even in the kata originally itself, and senior karate-ka even exhort their juniors to not be bound by the embusen of the form when seeking to master the meaning of the kata.

"Kata is practiced perfectly, real fight is another thing." Funakoshi`s 18th precept.

Can you point out in any of Funakoshi's books about hidden meaning or advance applications in bunkai?

“In karate, hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods, throwing techniques and pressure against joints are included … all these techniques should be studied referring to basic kata”

Based on Puuni's insight and seniors I have spoken to over the years, bunkai such as is practiced from karate kata in some circles are sometimes there in KKW poomsae but imo more by accident than design, where sections of kata were borrowed across that contained it.

I also have observed people twisting movements completely out of shape to fit an application to them where they are not there.

Is it worthwhile inventing stuff, or seeking out "bunkai" applications for sections that have it? Individual preference. These days there are almost certainly easier ways of developing these skills, as has been said.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I have a question for Kong Soo Do or anyone else who is into applications. Someone mentioned that the low block motion could be a hammerfist strike to the groin, followed by a punch to the now bent over opponent. Obviously, it could be that. You could throw a hammerfist from any number of angles or directions. I guess I'm wondering why you (generic you) would need to study form applications to get this concept. I think I learned this at a very young age, the first time I accidently hit my father in the crotch. So what do you need the form for? Several other targets were mentioned, but you don't need the form to get that information, either.

I'm legitimately curious as to why certain people are so interested in this method, when it seems like in many cases you're adding in unnecessary steps to the learning process. It is obvious, though, that the people who are into this stuff are REALLY into it. Is it just curiosity? Does it simply make forms practice more interesting? Why are you guys so into it?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Based on Puuni's insight and seniors I have spoken to over the years, bunkai such as is practiced from karate kata in some circles are sometimes there in KKW poomsae but imo more by accident than design, where sections of kata were borrowed across that contained it.

Correct sir. This was in my original premise and why I described some forms as 'choppy' in regards to the actual application(s). The form is perfectly fine on the surface as far as b-p-k, and the flow proceeds as designed for its purpose. The underlying application(s) i.e. that 'high block' was originally a shoulder lock, that 'outside middle block' was originally a bent arm bar etc may or may not have transitioned over as a complete package because what has been, as you put, borrowed is out of sequence or missing something. Not always, but sometimes. But I see enough complete principles to make forms work really exciting and valuable and not just a class-filler. And in some schools unfortunately, it is only a class-filler i.e. learn a new form for the next colored belt. It can be quite a bit more if one would like it to be.

I also have observed people twisting movements completely out of shape to fit an application to them where they are not there.

Absolutely. But it needs to be stressed that it is suppose to be a catalog of principles and not just movements that are engraved in stone so-to-speak. It is to reflect a chaotic, free-flowing fight (at least as far as the underlying principles). Much information can be gleaned from a specific sequence that isn't specifically in the form. For example, the opening movements of Pinan Shodan demonstrate a very effective, and high % shoulder lock. The form doesn't show a take down from that lock, but, extracting that shoulder lock principle from the form (from the catalog) allows us to then dissect that principle into its individual components and uses. Thus it becomes a highly effective shoulder locking drill that can transition to the take down, transition to use from angles not represented in the form itself but useable in a real fight, transition to use on the ground etc. All from a single sequence out of one form.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I have a question for Kong Soo Do or anyone else who is into applications. Someone mentioned that the low block motion could be a hammerfist strike to the groin, followed by a punch to the now bent over opponent. Obviously, it could be that. You could throw a hammerfist from any number of angles or directions. I guess I'm wondering why you (generic you) would need to study form applications to get this concept. I think I learned this at a very young age, the first time I accidently hit my father in the crotch. So what do you need the form for? Several other targets were mentioned, but you don't need the form to get that information, either.

I'm legitimately curious as to why certain people are so interested in this method, when it seems like in many cases you're adding in unnecessary steps to the learning process. It is obvious, though, that the people who are into this stuff are REALLY into it. Is it just curiosity? Does it simply make forms practice more interesting? Why are you guys so into it?

You've asked some great questions. As I mentioned in the above post, a form is a catalog of principles. Not necessarily just techniques. For example, you've mentioned the application with the hammerfist. This is a good application for an attack coming in from the side, but it is simplistic and fairly straight-forward. This particular principle gets the student use to the probable body reaction(s) to specific strikes so that an appropriate follow up can be used. As you mentioned, a strike to the groin isn't exactly ancient mystical knowledge, but more importantly is what follows that movement in the form. A way to describe it would be a Hollywood fight scene. Sometimes they screw up and someone is hit one way, but flies six feet back a different way and you know that the body isn't going to react that way from that hit. As this is a beginners form, we can begin to demonstrate that when you strike someone a specific way they will have a probable body reaction that we can then capitalize on with follow up strikes. The form demonstrates this principle very well.

Looking at the other application that I've mentioned, it offers principles of off-balancing an attacker as well as setting them up for follow up strikes as presented above. Additionally, it offers a more realistic application of both parts of the 'down block' than the b-p-k application i.e. the initial 'check' or 'body ram' on the upchambered portion and the balance displacement on the 'down' part of the movement. Realize that typing this just isn't as useful as standing with you and showing it in person.

Too me, and I speak only for myself, I look at forms work quite differently now than at the beginning of my training. Now, decades later I see these principles in the forms that I've actually been using against real bad guys and have found it an excellent way to convey this information to students who perhaps don't have to worry about fighting someone on a daily basis like I do. That is why I get excited about it. I look at a segment and recognize what the kata founders were conveying to future generations. And while Korean forms perhaps weren't intended for that purpose, I can still look into them as 'see' the information that was transplanted. So I don't have to worry about a thousand individual drills, I have all that is needed in a useful package. From them I can extract an endless variety of drills based on principles contained therein. I've also found that a student will begin visualizing what is actually happening in the form as they go through it. That in and of itself is valuable training.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have a question for Kong Soo Do or anyone else who is into applications. Someone mentioned that the low block motion could be a hammerfist strike to the groin, followed by a punch to the now bent over opponent. Obviously, it could be that. You could throw a hammerfist from any number of angles or directions. I guess I'm wondering why you (generic you) would need to study form applications to get this concept. I think I learned this at a very young age, the first time I accidently hit my father in the crotch. So what do you need the form for? Several other targets were mentioned, but you don't need the form to get that information, either.

Really? You learned about strikes to the femoral nerve by junk punching your father? Give him my condolences.

I'm legitimately curious as to why certain people are so interested in this method, when it seems like in many cases you're adding in unnecessary steps to the learning process. It is obvious, though, that the people who are into this stuff are REALLY into it. Is it just curiosity? Does it simply make forms practice more interesting? Why are you guys so into it?

For me, I find that forms make more sense as a series of techniques than as a series of random movements. One simple example: the high block. I see most new students performing this by moving the arm in an arc. At the top of the arc, their power is moveing more backwards than upwards. If the purpose of a high block is to redirect a strike at the face by moving it upwards, or to directly oppose a strike coming down on the top of the head, then this arc is not efficient. Focusing on the intended usage (or at least one of them) aids the learning process. If a student is making this curved movement, and stand in front of them and bring a hammerfist towards their head, they suddenly (and automatically) perform the technique properly.

Taekwondo is as much an intellectual as physical art, and as such, it seems to me that simply memorizing a series of gestures is less effective than understanding what the gestures are supposed to accomplish.

 

[seasoned]

I have a question for Kong Soo Do or anyone else who is into applications. Someone mentioned that the low block motion could be a hammerfist strike to the groin, followed by a punch to the now bent over opponent. Obviously, it could be that. You could throw a hammerfist from any number of angles or directions. I guess I'm wondering why you (generic you) would need to study form applications to get this concept. I think I learned this at a very young age, the first time I accidently hit my father in the crotch. So what do you need the form for? Several other targets were mentioned, but you don't need the form to get that information, either.

I'm legitimately curious as to why certain people are so interested in this method, when it seems like in many cases you're adding in unnecessary steps to the learning process. It is obvious, though, that the people who are into this stuff are REALLY into it. Is it just curiosity? Does it simply make forms practice more interesting? Why are you guys so into it?

Hammer fist would be at it's most elementary application. The down block motion should mirror any application it could be used for. A close in fighting art as GoJu, would draw an opponent in, rather then simple just block/punch, and lose the contact. Since closed fist blocks are useless as demonstrated in any sparring, and body shifting would be more appropriate, leaving the hands free for traps and close strikes, then closed fist blocks are not what they seem to be within kata.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Really? You learned about strikes to the femoral nerve by junk punching your father? Give him my condolences.

I learned about junk punching by junk punching. Obviously, I didn't learn about the femoral nerve. But I don't think anyone learned about the femoral nerve by reverse engineering poomse, either.

For me, I find that forms make more sense as a series of techniques than as a series of random movements. One simple example: the high block. I see most new students performing this by moving the arm in an arc. At the top of the arc, their power is moveing more backwards than upwards. If the purpose of a high block is to redirect a strike at the face by moving it upwards, or to directly oppose a strike coming down on the top of the head, then this arc is not efficient. Focusing on the intended usage (or at least one of them) aids the learning process. If a student is making this curved movement, and stand in front of them and bring a hammerfist towards their head, they suddenly (and automatically) perform the technique properly.

Taekwondo is as much an intellectual as physical art, and as such, it seems to me that simply memorizing a series of gestures is less effective than understanding what the gestures are supposed to accomplish.

I do this as well. When I say I don't have time for applications I don't mean that I don't teach any applications, just that I don't try to "extract" any hidden techniques. In my opinion, high block, low block, and middle block work pretty well as a high block, low block, and a middle block.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Hammer fist would be at it's most elementary application. The down block motion should mirror any application it could be used for. A close in fighting art as GoJu, would draw an opponent in, rather then simple just block/punch, and lose the contact. Since closed fist blocks are useless as demonstrated in any sparring, and body shifting would be more appropriate, leaving the hands free for traps and close strikes, then closed fist blocks are not what they seem to be within kata.

Honestly, I don't know (or particularly care) what a Goju guy would do, since I don't practice that style. I don't mean that to sound combative, so please don't take it that way. I prefer to keep applications simple and direct. I already have too many other skills to throw into a two hour class without "over-complicating" poomse. I think the biggest issue I would have is that only a small portion of the students would be really interested in that type of thing. By the same token, I wouldn't spend too much time hammering them with WTF competition rules, because pretty much none of our students are going to compete.

As far as closed fist blocks being useless, I'm not sure I would agree. While I wouldn't advocate doing a block with a full chamber during sparring, modified versions of those blocking techniques can be used in sparring. Actually, I remember visiting a Tang Soo Do school maybe 10 years ago, and their sparring looked just like their forms. They used the same stances, chambers, etc. when they were sparring as they did in their forms. It was really bizarre to me. I remember thinking that it was kind of interesting to watch, but that I would get killed at my own dojang sparring that way.

 

[seasoned]

First off, and I add this in because some are there, and all will be there some day. I am 69 years old, and have trained consistently for 45years. To do what I did and could do 40 years ago, was fine and dandy, then. But, I needed an art of self defense that could grow with me while I grew older. Instead of looking else where for some of the softer arts, I found to my surprise, that right there in front of me, within my art and it's kata, was what I was looking for, but did not see it as a young man.
My Sensei always said that kata held the key, and there was always a saying that went something like this, "martial arts is for everybody". Well when I was young I didn't need self defense as much as I would need it now, are you with me?

So I guess what I'm saying is, if you are studying an art, and enjoy it, and it is an old traditional art, there are provisions within the art to accommodate your elder years. And for this reason you need to look past the young persons art you are studying, and within that art and those techniques, you will find a complete other art. Oh, the movements will be the same, as you did all your training life, but you are now redirecting, shifting off center, using power from body mechanics instead of muscle.

When we were young we could spar for hours, but in our 70s and 80s, what do we do, hang it up, I think not.

If you are in an art worth it's salt, it is for young and old. But the techniques are done a little bit different as we older martial artist apply them. Nothing changes, only evolves. This, is what makes it, and we call it, an ART.

I don't generally find myself straying away from the karate threads, and may have some reservations in the future. I do tend to stay open minded and learning all the time. I did learn and enjoyed the inter actions here, but had an uneasy feeling, and didn't see many of these here. I would say, we could all stand to chill out a bit, and above all stay open minded and enjoy the learning experience you are getting here.

 

[puunui]

Correct sir. This was in my original premise and why I described some forms as 'choppy' in regards to the actual application(s).

What is really choppy is trying to learning these reverse engineered applications within the context of forms, where the progression of techniques neither build upon nor lay a sufficient foundation for later learning. It would be like trying to learn your the alphabet by trying to read books. Who does that?

The form is perfectly fine on the surface as far as b-p-k, and the flow proceeds as designed for its purpose. The underlying application(s) i.e. that 'high block' was originally a shoulder lock, that 'outside middle block' was originally a bent arm bar etc may or may not have transitioned over as a complete package because what has been, as you put, borrowed is out of sequence or missing something.

There is no original anything, at least the way you are doing it, which is reverse engineering applications which were never there to begin with.

 

[puunui]

Looking at the other application that I've mentioned, it offers principles of off-balancing an attacker as well as setting them up for follow up strikes as presented above. Additionally, it offers a more realistic application of both parts of the 'down block' than the b-p-k application i.e. the initial 'check' or 'body ram' on the upchambered portion and the balance displacement on the 'down' part of the movement.

There is no off balancing and there is nothing realistic about practicing these "principles" in a form. Unlike for example, hapkido training, which involves one on one partner training, forms work is solo, doing movements in the air. What is realistic about that? And who are you unbalancing, your imaginary opponent? In hapkido we actually work against a partner, and can get a good feel of how to actually off balance someone, in a realistic fashion. In forms, you are by yourself imagining what you would do against a live opponent. Not the same thing.

 

[puunui]

Taekwondo is as much an intellectual as physical art, and as such, it seems to me that simply memorizing a series of gestures is less effective than understanding what the gestures are supposed to accomplish.

Practicing poomsae is not simply for training "self defense". There are many other benefits from doing the movements in and of themselves, health benefits for example. While at the kukkiwon I asked the person featured in the videos above about why we do certain movements. His answer was there are many benefits from doing these motions, especially the twisting motions. Many of the movements in poomsae are done in a very specific way, in much the same way that yoga poses and movements are done if a very specific way, to gain benefits which do not include "self defense". Focusing on "self defense" only and whatever practical applications demonstrates a very low level of comprehension and understanding, at least according to instructors at the Kukkiwon.

 

[puunui]

Actually, I remember visiting a Tang Soo Do school maybe 10 years ago, and their sparring looked just like their forms. They used the same stances, chambers, etc. when they were sparring as they did in their forms. It was really bizarre to me. I remember thinking that it was kind of interesting to watch, but that I would get killed at my own dojang sparring that way.

Actually, that is how sparring originally evolved, by taking form movements and attempting to apply them in a free form format. There was the movie Last of the Mohicans on recently, and it showed how armies fought back then, standing in a line, shooting in unison, and so forth. It looked very similar to what we would call close order drill today. Of course no one would think of approaching warfare like how the red coats did it back in the 18th century. But what would be the reaction if someone came here and said that there were "secret" stuff contained in those movements, which are "better" than today's modern warfare tactics, applications which modern soldiers are ignorant of, because they never learned them.

That's pretty much how I see this reverse engineering of applications from forms, someone trying to convince me that the musket based red coat military methods which are hidden in close order drill is superior to today's modern warfare tactics and weaponry.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Practicing poomsae is not simply for training "self defense".

If you actually read my post, you will notice that I never made any such claim. I'd appreciate it if you would address my actual comments, rather than invent arguements and positions for me. Thanks.