Tae Kwon Do Forms
- Thread starter Azulx
- Start date
Yes, I understand that I should do the former with more realistic intent. Is your comment about me not being able to fight my way out of a paperr bag necessary? You also claim that you are not a TKD practitioner, so how can you evaluate my fighting ability from a form? What is your martial art experience? Are you an instructor?
JR 137
Grandmaster
I'm a karate guy, not TKD, so take all this with a grain of salt...
You seem to look down several times during the forms; either at your feet, the mat, or your hands. Keep your head pointed towards your "opponent." Your head shouldn't move at all, except when you change direction.
In addition to the back foot sliding back into a deeper stance, you seem to do a sort of hop before the actual next step. Hard to explain, but it jumps out at me immediately (no pun intended).
The biggest thing I see is intent. Like previously said, make every move count. You appear to be walking through it rather than fighting. That doesn't mean speed it up, it just means for force in your techniques. I'm not sure how far along you are in learning these forms, but if I had to guess I'd say you're at the point where you finally memorized the movements and now it's time to add power and snap. But if you're posting this here, you probably are past the point where you just memorized the movements.
Overall I think the forms look good. Just some pointers to take them from good to great. And I think it's cool you put yourself out there like this. If I could figure out the whole YouTube thing, I would too. And I'd most likely have just as many criticisms. Keep at it!
You seem to look down several times during the forms; either at your feet, the mat, or your hands. Keep your head pointed towards your "opponent." Your head shouldn't move at all, except when you change direction.
In addition to the back foot sliding back into a deeper stance, you seem to do a sort of hop before the actual next step. Hard to explain, but it jumps out at me immediately (no pun intended).
The biggest thing I see is intent. Like previously said, make every move count. You appear to be walking through it rather than fighting. That doesn't mean speed it up, it just means for force in your techniques. I'm not sure how far along you are in learning these forms, but if I had to guess I'd say you're at the point where you finally memorized the movements and now it's time to add power and snap. But if you're posting this here, you probably are past the point where you just memorized the movements.
Overall I think the forms look good. Just some pointers to take them from good to great. And I think it's cool you put yourself out there like this. If I could figure out the whole YouTube thing, I would too. And I'd most likely have just as many criticisms. Keep at it!
Th0mas
Yellow Belt
Hi Azulx
Maybe the "paperbag" comment was a little unfair
I appreciate you are trying to perfect your forms and may not be familiar enough yet or fully comfortable with the body mechanics.
My observation was purely based on what I saw in the form and is not a reflection on other aspects of your art.
The point is that forms are not a dance but are meant to represent fighting applications and should be approached with that in mind. This includes the mental and emotional side too, especially when visualisation is so important and should be practiced hand in hand with the physical techinques.
Now I am not a big fan of TKD forms, mainly because they originally were sourced from Shotokan Kata (which had already adapted them) and the structure and application has significantly evolved away from their original purpose.
Arguably (and this is my view) Kata was originally designed as a record of fighting strategies and tactics recorded in a the physical medium. Close range, against civilian assailants dealing with HAPV. The fighting strategies are demonstraited in the form with example applications to highlight the combatative principles. Think of it as an instructor lead lesson plan, used to structure and supplement all aspects of a wider training regime.
The problem with TKD patterns is that the emphasis is on long range, kick-heavy applications, which is significantly different from the martial context of the original kata.
All that being said, there is still value in them, but they need to be practiced in a martial way. Each technique should be performed with mental and physical intent as if you were trying to actually damage someone.
Anyway, to your final question, I have been practicing shotokan karate for 30 years now ( much to my long suffering wife's irritation and my long suffering hamstrings), with a particular interest in pragmatic karate.
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I confirmed the following with my instructor. For our standard Inner/Outer Forearm blocks are chambered under, back fists are chambered on top. I asked why? He stated that that is just how he was taught in the ITA. So that is the standard we follow. I have to work on being consistent with my school's standard because in teh same form I saw myself chamber for the outer forearm block under and on top.
transitioning to move 5 is something I also need to confirm because it isn't in the manual. So idk if I'm doing it right. Even for my school's standards. I will take a look at #24's chamber and go form there.
The inconsistency with power came straight up from laziness. It was at the end of class, I just wanted to walk through the forms and see the chambers and transitions. That is how I became aware of the adjusting back step that I always seem to do. I can assure you I can block a noodle. I will post a video of me trying to do the form with intent. If ti still looks inconsistent then I need to work on forms even more.
Hi Azulx
Maybe the "paperbag" comment was a little unfair
I appreciate you are trying to perfect your forms and may not be familiar enough yet or fully comfortable with the body mechanics.
My observation was purely based on what I saw in the form and is not a reflection on other aspects of your art.
The point is that forms are not a dance but are meant to represent fighting applications and should be approached with that in mind. This includes the mental and emotional side too, especially when visualisation is so important and should be practiced hand in hand with the physical techinques.
Now I am not a big fan of TKD forms, mainly because they originally were sourced from Shotokan Kata (which had already adapted them) and the structure and application has significantly evolved away from their original purpose.
Arguably (and this is my view) Kata was originally designed as a record of fighting strategies and tactics recorded in a the physical medium. Close range, against civilian assailants dealing with HAPV. The fighting strategies are demonstraited in the form with example applications to highlight the combatative principles. Think of it as an instructor lead lesson plan, used to structure and supplement all aspects of a wider training regime.
The problem with TKD patterns is that the emphasis is on long range, kick-heavy applications, which is significantly different from the martial context of the original kata.
All that being said, there is still value in them, but they need to be practiced in a martial way. Each technique should be performed with mental and physical intent as if you were trying to actually damage someone.
Anyway, to your final question, I have been practicing shotokan karate for 30 years now ( much to my long suffering wife's irritation and my long suffering hamstrings), with a particular interest in pragmatic karate.
I appreciate your input. This si the point I was trying to make. You sad you have been practicing Shotokan for 30 years, I have been practicing for just under 2. You have been practicing for longer than I have been alive. There is no possible early way that me and you will have the same understanding of forms. So it is silly to have such a negative comment. Here you have an ability to help me better understand what I am doing, and instead you choose to lead with something like that. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but keep that into consideration. I may not be the only person who you have an opportunity to hel[p outside your classroom.
Finally, here is a video of me doing a form for testing. I believe I show more intent here, but there is still many things I have to work on.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
You've gotten some very good input so far, I'd just add a few things to keep in mind while practicing.
1) Work on accuracy of your stances. It's like building a house. If there's not a good foundation the rest of the structure will suffer. I am thinking particularly of your sitting stance (horseback stance), in which your toes are pointing out at nearly a 45 degree angle, but you do tend to appear slightly off balance at times in other stances. A good way to work on this is to simply go through each pattern you're practicing just doing stances and not worrying about the hand or foot techniques that go with them. Working on just stances allows you to make sure you have proper balance as well as check to see if the stances are accurate so your ending spot is the same spot at which you began.
2) In Choong-Moo, movements 25 and 26 are supposed to both be middle side piercing kicks. You perform a side piercing kick followed by a back piercing kick. Your instructor may have changed that technique but the form as designed calls for two side kicks (see the videos posted by Master Weiss in which GM Choi, Jung Hwa, the son of General Choi, performs Choong-Moo for a good example of this pattern in general).
3) Stretch your ankle when doing front snap kicks. I noticed that in general when you perform front kicks your ankle is bent at nearly a ninety degree ankle. The attacking tool for a front snap kick is the ball of the foot, which means in order to hit your opponent effectively you need to stretch the ankle of the kicking foot as you pull the toes back towards the shin.The ankle should be stretched enough that the foot is as close to flat on top as possible.
The videos Master Weiss posted are good examples of those patterns, especially since most of what is on youtube is not great.
Pax,
Chris
Th0mas
Yellow Belt
Hi Azulx
I apologise if you were upset by my comment, it was a poor attempt at humour.
I hope the rest of my numerous inputs to this thread have been useful and demonstrate my willingness to share my experience.
As someone else pointed out earlier, you have put your videos out in public which is commendable and brave. You asked for feedback, which you got. You may not like all of it..
Keep up the training..
Cheers
Tom
I apologise if you were upset by my comment, it was a poor attempt at humour.
I hope the rest of my numerous inputs to this thread have been useful and demonstrate my willingness to share my experience.
As someone else pointed out earlier, you have put your videos out in public which is commendable and brave. You asked for feedback, which you got. You may not like all of it..
Keep up the training..
Cheers
Tom
Thanks for the feedback Chris! My Student Manual says spin side kick for #26, but I will confirm with my instructor today. There are some discrepancies between our Ch'ang Hon forms and the ITF's. This stems from my instructor learning the ITA's variation (which they had 2) then implementing his own variations. My main goal is having good stances and tarnsitions, that seems to be the biggest problem.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
An important Caveat for the videos I posted. As Mr. Spiller notes. They are "Good" examples. Don't ever consider that any video is a "Perfect" example.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
What I am about to say is NOT meant to be a slam at your instructor. #1. The shortest pencil is better than the longest memory. Being able to refer to a written standard is better than relying on recollection of how someone was taught.
#2 . The author of the patterns does have a written standard for the items. Mr. Spiller and I noted. Nonetheless you need to follow the standard of your org. / instructor.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Is this the ITA Founded by James Benko?
No Sir, ITA (International Taekwon-do Alliance ) was founded by Bert and Kraig Collars, as well as Art Monroe. They were former members of the ATA. ITA is now know as Tiger Rock Martial Arts. They teach what they call Ho-am Taekwon-do.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Seem to recall the ATA connection now from a prior thread. Explains the Chung Do Kwan "Flavor" to some of the elements.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Another video USTF-ITF Headquarters Public Group | Facebook
I absolutely agree. It actually would be better if there was written standard, because without that things get confusing. I can tell when he is trying to remember things, and he doesn't sound sure about what he is remembering. For example, chambering for backfists, I could have sworn it was on the bottom, then he 'remembered' it was on top. If it was written down he wouldn't have to 'remember'.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Master Weiss, I'm not sure if it's different for other people but FB says "attachment unavailable" for me.
Pax,
Chris
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Checked the link again today and it worked fine. Good video of Gen. Choi giving instruction on Choong-Moo from one of the ITF training tapes series.
Pax,
Chris
Pax,
Chris
MI_martialist
Brown Belt
I have not done these forms in about 30 years, so I will not comment on the evolution of their presentation. When we did them, there was not all of the bobbing up and down that I see when people do the forms now, so I will not talk about those things.
Big thing...work your base. Work drills to feel the base, the stance, the posture. Make them rock solid. Also, understand actual application for each movement, pose, and posture. When you execute them, execute the application...it will change how you perform.
I would check with your instructors on the technical aspects of the stances and work them..there are inconsistencies.
Agree with the chambering issues as well.
Overall, well done...how much experience do you have and your instructors have?
Big thing...work your base. Work drills to feel the base, the stance, the posture. Make them rock solid. Also, understand actual application for each movement, pose, and posture. When you execute them, execute the application...it will change how you perform.
I would check with your instructors on the technical aspects of the stances and work them..there are inconsistencies.
Agree with the chambering issues as well.
Overall, well done...how much experience do you have and your instructors have?
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