Systema a discussion

[Gweilo]

Why though? Why's it so important for you to do some pointless fight? Just keep doing what you're doing with your training and don't worry about proving anything

I responded quickly, then I read my answers, then I thought about your question, in my day I was a bit of a jack the lad, I got into a lot of fights, aggression was how I responded to any situation, I even got banned from Spain for 10 years. Mud sticks and trouble seemed to come my way even if I tried to avoid it, I even tried unliscensed bare knuckle fighting for a while. When I had finally had enough, I left everything behind, tried to start again, in another part of the country, where nobody knew me, I even took up a new art, perhaps I had one of those faces, after a while trouble still come, I stopped training for a while, then found Systema, love training it, perhaps this recent event was me expecting trouble to arise sooner or later, or perhaps at 49, I was wondering do I still have it, not sure yet, but perhaps you are right, maybe I should just enjoy the training, and maybe if I stop expecting trouble, it will stop coming, who knows.

 

[Gweilo]

 

[Buka]

Thinking about the path Dan Inosanto has travelled boggles my mind. Anything he trains has to be the balls.

 

[Gweilo]

I had the plessure of attending a seminar back in the late 90's, what a humble, genuine nice guy, extremely willing to pass on knowledge and experience. Definitely one of my life highlights.

 

[Gweilo]

Many a video posted on YouTube do not do Systema justice, the previous video I posted with Dan Innosanto, stated you have to train it to undestand it, but the following video is how I see Systema, but a bit pencakish, not sure if this instructor Is Filipino inspired as the style is a little bit rigid, but this is how I see my art with a little more freedom.

 

[dunc]

I think you should study carefully how the person receiving the techniques moves

If they are static and not controlled then I’d suggest the techniques are not entirely viable

The clip you posted certainly fits into this category I think

 

[Gweilo]

I agree, the clip is very seminary, with the slow attacker, and fast reactions of the instructor, it was a bit stylised. But with more freedom, and a bit more of body movement in the striking is how I see my art, which is far from a guy running around barrel rolling his arms, or waving your fingers and making someone fall over. It is difficult for someone who does not train in my art to understand the processes, convenient I hear people say, I understand it will take time to convince some people, and some never will be convinced.

 

[Martial D]

Every art and style has propaganda. Plenty of that in this thread.

I judge a style solely on its propensity to produce competent and effective fighters.

On that note I hold judgement on many styles, this one included, until such a time as they produce any.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you should study carefully how the person receiving the techniques moves

If they are static and not controlled then I’d suggest the techniques are not entirely viable

The clip you posted certainly fits into this category I think

This is a common practice in demonstrations - I see it in BJJ and MMA demonstrations, where I am certain the demonstrator understands this is creating a very artificial situation. When it's used for a single move, I don't have a problem with it. When it's used too much, though, we start to see a longer sequence as the response. I think it was @drop bear who referred to this as a 4-beat response (the defender gets to do 4 things in response to 1 movement by the attacker). That practice has the real risk of inflating our belief in our abilities.

 

[Gweilo]

That practice has the real risk of inflating our belief in our abilities.

Is this not true for all arts? As long as we regularly pressure test , to keep us honest, I am a student of systema, but as long as I am better than I was yesterday, or have learnt something new, about me or my art, or confronted a weakness, then I am moving in the right direction.

 

[dunc]

I’m not sure that I 100% agree

For example good BJJ technique is characterized by the proponent exerting a high degree of control over their opponent. So even when demonstrating in an artificial context it’s clear how the technical advantage is being used

When illustrating standing technique it’s pretty easy to see the timing, reaction baiting etc that provide the equivalent advantage, even if being shown in an abstract context

I hope that makes sense?

 

[Gweilo]

Yes it makes sense, but as stated in other posts, Systema is a process, when we see for example, a student from other arts, when they get to a senior level they are performing in a way that mimics the styles principles via techniques taught to them through years of repetitive training, In Systema (I am not making any claims it is better, just different) those of a senior level look like they are moving by mimicking what's taught, but it is because this is the way the human body moves, when it moves freely and naturally. When jp mentioned the 4 beats comment, we train this way as a form of playing, we are encouraged to look for as many strikes, breaks, structure breaking opportunities as we can, but 1 strike leads us to the next in a free, fluid, efficient manner until the threat is no longer there, or the opportunity to escape arises.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is this not true for all arts? As long as we regularly pressure test , to keep us honest, I am a student of systema, but as long as I am better than I was yesterday, or have learnt something new, about me or my art, or confronted a weakness, then I am moving in the right direction.

Yes, it absolutely is true of all arts (that's part of the point I was getting at). We just have to be more cautious when we use that to demonstrate a multi-beat movement. Doesn't mean we should never do that - I haven't found a better way to demonstrate most sequences when talking than to use a reasonably passive partner to allow me to move freely through the sequence I want to illustrate. So yeah, we have to make sure we're adding some pressure testing to keep us honest.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’m not sure that I 100% agree

For example good BJJ technique is characterized by the proponent exerting a high degree of control over their opponent. So even when demonstrating in an artificial context it’s clear how the technical advantage is being used

When illustrating standing technique it’s pretty easy to see the timing, reaction baiting etc that provide the equivalent advantage, even if being shown in an abstract context

I hope that makes sense?

With some sequences, that's absolutely true. Let me toss something out that may illustrate my point. If we were showing how to diffuse a step in (by the opponent) to gain clinch or some other close-in grab for control, and convert that to a single-leg takedown, we'd probably want at some point to demonstrate the whole sequence with some explanation. So, the "opponent" has to start his entry, then become mostly passive (perhaps still moving, if we're demonstrating a sequence that involves him taking a step, for instance). He's going to be letting us make that movement, and there's not much control held as we transition from the counter to the grab and drop in for the single-leg. We can repeat that sequence with some reliability in sparring, so we know it works even if he's not passive, but the demo doesn't really let us see that any better than most passive demos do.

 

[wab25]

In Systema (I am not making any claims it is better, just different) those of a senior level look like they are moving by mimicking what's taught, but it is because this is the way the human body moves, when it moves freely and naturally.

I always find this claim interesting. Systema is not the only art to make such a claim. The reason I find this claim interesting and amusing is that I have yet to find the art that claims to teach you to move you body in unnatural ways and in ways that the human body does not move. Every art I know of teaches you to move the way the human body moves. In fact, they all take advantage of how the human body moves.

I get it though. This is another "we don't do kata cause kata sucks" type thing. But, here are a bunch of drills to do. Move freely, their are no set moves, respond naturally... except in this drill, stand like this, attack like that and put your hand here so that it does this... only relax and do it without thinking. All arts do this same thing... which I find amusing.

 

[Gweilo]

Every art I know of teaches you to move the way the human body moves. In fact, they all take advantage of how the human body moves.

Take advantage of human movement I agree, but a stylised, refined, or repetitive muscle memory response, if we limit ourself to refined movement, we loose some ability for a creative counter, or move in a way that is suceptable to another muscle memory response.

I get it though. This is another "we don't do kata cause kata sucks" type thing. But, here are a bunch of drills to do.

It has never been explained in that disrespectful way to me, and no claims of this way is better, have also never been claimed, on the contrary, Kata is essential in other arts, hard work and determination. Of course there are techniques taught in Systema, breathing techniques, rolling techniques, and striking techniques are all taught, but aspiring to do this in a calm, fluid, efficient way, learn to control ourselves, before we control others. Repetitive teaching or practicing of rehearsed patterns of movement gives your opponent a chance of understanding how you move or intend to move, having no set pattern eliminates the chance of this happening, that is the reason given to me, not in a way that mocks other teaching ways. This is the 3rd art I have trained in, and I do not regret any art I have trained in, but 2 of these arts I was trained into being an exponent of that style, many hours spent trying to perfect a kick that my body was not meant to be performing, and being told time and time again, no, do it again. We are at a point in martial arts, where we can see the down sides of training in a repetitive patterns, look at some of the old Karate teachers, hips are knackered, no longer able to perform a low kick, I saw a video recently, of Bill superfoot Wallace, amazing kicks in his youth, now walks like he has had an accident in his pants. I enjoy Systema, because I can mould the art to me, and my body, and my age, all I can say is, I move better now, than I have for a long time, is it an effective martial art, I am sure we will find out in the future, I believe it is very effective, but I am biased.

 

[wab25]

Of course there are techniques taught in Systema, breathing techniques, rolling techniques, and striking techniques are all taught, but aspiring to do this in a calm, fluid, efficient way, learn to control ourselves, before we control others.

You could take out the word Systema and replace it with Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Karate, TKD, Hapkido, Kung fu, Boxing, Wrestling... Thats the amusing part... this idea is unique to every single system of martial arts.

Repetitive teaching or practicing of rehearsed patterns of movement gives your opponent a chance of understanding how you move or intend to move, having no set pattern eliminates the chance of this happening

And yet, drills are always taught where one guy does this, and the other guy does that. The techniques shown in your last video (post 105) are demonstrated by people who have done them 1 or 2 times before. In fact, I would bet they have done those techniques thousands of times... in a non repetitive sort of way. In order to gain physical skill, repetition must be done.

 

[Gweilo]

As I stated in the post 105, the video was a bit to stylised in favour of Kali or Silat.
The difference between Systema and the list of arts you stated, tkd, hapkido etc, the repetitive training, comes in the form of grading material, you must attain a level of uniformity to achieve the grade, everyone has to execute a pre planned repitiore, as does kata, we have no grading syllabus.
We do execute drills, but the end goal is to achieve a level of movement, and be creative with it, efficient counters, and pressure test at the end of each session.

 

[wab25]

We do execute drills, but the end goal is to achieve a level of movement, and be creative with it, efficient counters, and pressure test at the end of each session.

This describes all martial arts. The only difference being who creates the drills. If the founders of the art created the drills, we call them kata... if the instructors create their own drills, we simply call them drills.

If the end goal is to receive a grading, and not to achieve a level of movement... thats on the student. You can do Systema the same way, with a focus on the grading, and miss the whole of the art... just like you can for any other art... and that is always on the student.

 

[Buka]

I always find this claim interesting. Systema is not the only art to make such a claim. The reason I find this claim interesting and amusing is that I have yet to find the art that claims to teach you to move you body in unnatural ways and in ways that the human body does not move. Every art I know of teaches you to move the way the human body moves. In fact, they all take advantage of how the human body moves.

I get it though. This is another "we don't do kata cause kata sucks" type thing. But, here are a bunch of drills to do. Move freely, their are no set moves, respond naturally... except in this drill, stand like this, attack like that and put your hand here so that it does this... only relax and do it without thinking. All arts do this same thing... which I find amusing.

I disagree when it comes to kicking. The front kick is the only motion of the way the human body moves naturally. I think it's a stretch to fit most other kinds of kicks into what would be considered natural movement. For the most part, anyway.