Systema a discussion

[Tony Dismukes]

Anyhow, a little while ago, I mentioned some ex UFC fighter and his mate a current IFC fighter did a anti Systema video on you
Tube, asking for systema practitioners to stand up to the plate, and meet them, I agreed, a date was set, they cancelled, it turns out they found another so say Systema practioner to meet with them, where they filmed it, and have produced the video on YouTube, this other Systema bloke, has trained in the art, but proclaimed Systema does not have pressure testing sparring, or ground techniques, I guess he trains a different systema to me, but in the interest of fairness, here is the link to the video, can't believe they never rolled or sparred, which was the original argument.

Good on those guys for keeping an open mind while working with the Systema guy, even without sparring.

I can't claim to have any great insight into Systema. I had a few practice sessions with some relatively beginner seminar students who were working to start a club in Dayton some years back. I've also watched a bunch of videos. I've done some on-and-off experimentation over the years on my own based on what I've seen.

My impressions from what I've seen are as follows:

They have some interesting body mechanics which could be useful in a variety of situations. In particular, they have some good relaxed power generation.

They seem to have a lot of practice devoted to just internalizing that relaxed movement and using it in an instinctive fashion, rather than drilling specific techniques.

I suspect sometimes some practitioners may get so caught up in those movement drills that they start confusing them with actual application. (Or a teacher who may know better may demonstrate techniques this way in order to impress students. I'm thinking in particular of Vladimir Vasiliev. He's clearly very skilled, but I've seen lots of footage of him demonstrating knife defenses which will absolutely get you killed if you try them.)

Systema has a distinctive flavor to the movement, but the concepts are not unique to the art. I've occasionally seen some similar demos in certain CMAs. I've seen a couple of MMA fighters mix in certain elements of the movement in their fights. (Don't think they got it from Systema, but you never know.) The technique the guy showed in the video of hitting with the shoulder off of a clinch is one I learned from a JKD/BJJ instructor 20 years ago and by coincidence my own coach used it on me during sparring last night.

For a one-on-one fight at range, I don't think Systema punching is overall as good as boxing punching. However it does offer some interesting options for working in the clinch. I played around with some Systema-style punching during sparring last night and was able to land some sneaky shots from close range.

 

[drop bear]

I don't see that style of punching as they described it being especially unique.

I do what I call a trailing hook. That is kind of that action.

 

[Gweilo]

@Tony Dismukes , I agree, the relaxed movements and strikes are not unique to systema, but what some viewers do not understand is, when they see the drills, where a strike lands, it's not solely about absorbing the strike, it's twofold, absorbing and or narrowing the angle of impact, it's also about moving or using the whole body, to avoid, defend and attack, and I also agree with some of Vladimir's videos show some forms of knife defense, that will get people hurt if they tried them on someone who was half decent with a knife,and again the drill is twofold, trying to defend against the initial attack, knowing when to move rather than defend, but also, there is a side to Systema that trains the phyche, the more you know how to use the knife, the better you become at detecting the movement of a knife attack in its earliest stages, but we could watch nearly every other art and point out potential flaws with some technique or other, My approach is take what's useful, and put it in the locker. Some of the training drills we do are about a feeling, we constantly scan our bodies for tension, trying to keep us as free moving as possible, and yes I think practioners do take the drills as a matter of literal technique, when they should be looking for the shortest or most direct counter in a way that hides the strike, or from an angle that is difficult to defend, followed very quickly with a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. Systema is no better than any other art out there, just different in its basic philosophy and application of training, and a large part of the training to develop the breathwork.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good on those guys for keeping an open mind while working with the Systema guy, even without sparring.

I can't claim to have any great insight into Systema. I had a few practice sessions with some relatively beginner seminar students who were working to start a club in Dayton some years back. I've also watched a bunch of videos. I've done some on-and-off experimentation over the years on my own based on what I've seen.

My impressions from what I've seen are as follows:

They have some interesting body mechanics which could be useful in a variety of situations. In particular, they have some good relaxed power generation.

They seem to have a lot of practice devoted to just internalizing that relaxed movement and using it in an instinctive fashion, rather than drilling specific techniques.

I suspect sometimes some practitioners may get so caught up in those movement drills that they start confusing them with actual application. (Or a teacher who may know better may demonstrate techniques this way in order to impress students. I'm thinking in particular of Vladimir Vasiliev. He's clearly very skilled, but I've seen lots of footage of him demonstrating knife defenses which will absolutely get you killed if you try them.)

Systema has a distinctive flavor to the movement, but the concepts are not unique to the art. I've occasionally seen some similar demos in certain CMAs. I've seen a couple of MMA fighters mix in certain elements of the movement in their fights. (Don't think they got it from Systema, but you never know.) The technique the guy showed in the video of hitting with the shoulder off of a clinch is one I learned from a JKD/BJJ instructor 20 years ago and by coincidence my own coach used it on me during sparring last night.

For a one-on-one fight at range, I don't think Systema punching is overall as good as boxing punching. However it does offer some interesting options for working in the clinch. I played around with some Systema-style punching during sparring last night and was able to land some sneaky shots from close range.

Good points, as usual.

A lot of the commentary I see about Systema (especially your reactions here) ring of things I've either heard or said about Aikido/aiki arts. In both cases, I think the movement training is part of what differentiates that group. It's not really necessary (we could find faster ways to competency than training that relaxed movement), but it's an interesting approach. And folks in both camps sometimes get lost in the drills and very focused on them, rather than application. Which, I suppose, is fine if they're okay with departing from fight application (which some groups in Aikido are, and state that fight application isn't really the objective). And in both cases, I think there's a benefit beyond fight application (which I also see in folks who really get into the relaxed, patient approach in BJJ).

I suspect something that's not often said, but more often felt, is that folks just really like the movement approach (and, thus, the drills for it), because it feels good. They like learning to relax that tension, move fluidly, etc. And in many cases, I think folks are okay trading some efficiency of learning fight skills (taking longer to get to competence in some areas) for that. But I think folks are sometimes loathe to admit - because of marketing they've used or responded to - that it is a slower path to competence in fighting.

 

[Gweilo]

Its been a little while since posting here, but with Systema practices, I am learning a great deal more about myself, and how I react. What emotions control and dictate, my responses. Is Systema a great martial art, my answer would be not greater than other arts, for self defense practice, but I have a greater understanding of me, and how I work, with this, the Systema principles have given me a more efficient way of working, it seems to be the founding and commanding principle of my martial arts, approaching 50, other thing that never made sense, seem to fit in. My over riding thoughts at present are: speed through relaxation, efficeincy through movement, and stamina through breath and core strength, seem to be pivotal. People say that in a moment of crisiss, things seem to slow down, I find this almost true when observing movement and tension in other people, the tension in others, gives their intensions away, purely in their stance, and the tension in the parts of the body they intend to move. Its almost like having an insight to what your opponent is planning.

 

[Gweilo]

Throughout covid 19, even though online classes are helpful ,especially in linking movement with breath, I am missing the contact (literally) with others, My main thoughts are with pressure testing my skill and movement, may become for a better word rusty, this is the most enjoyable part of Systema for me, not just my progression, but becoming successful in movement, whilst helping others become successful in movement, without fellow students, I do feel limited.

 

[Gweilo]

This is my favourite quote by any martial artists ever
The goal of training is not acquiring many quick and fancy moves, but learning to control your own pride, irritation, fear, anger and self pity.
VV

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The goal of training is not acquiring many quick and fancy moves, but learning to control your own pride, irritation, fear, anger and self pity.

I don't need that many reasons. I just need one reason and that is for "fun".

A: Dear master! When you are doing power generation, your hip rotate in a clockwise circle. Are you rotate your Dantian and send your Chi out?
B: A bee just landed on my hip and I tried to get ride of it.

Sometime the truth is much basic and simple.

 

[Gweilo]

I don't need that many reasons. I just need one reason and that is for "fun".

A: Dear master! When you are doing power generation, your hip rotate in a clockwise circle. Are you rotate your Dantian and send your Chi out?
B: A bee just landed on my hip and I tried to get ride of it.

Sometime the truth is much basic and simple.

But if you cannot master YOU, all your technique, is regimented, your form is readable, your intension is clear, to quote a great Chinese ma, water always finds the best way, efficiency in movement, is far better than intension

 

[Gweilo]

Your movement through tension, makes your recipe fighting, very predictable, a does b does, your style looks nice, but put against modern training, your skill is limited, it cannot handle the likes of mma, krav maga, systema

 

[jobo]

Your movement through tension, makes your recipe fighting, very predictable, a does b does, your style looks nice, but put against modern training, your skill is limited, it cannot handle the likes of mma, krav maga, systema

im not sure id put those three all in the same bracket of proven effectiveness.

two of them are just as dodgy as any tma and all of them are dependent on the skill of the practitioner

 

[Gweilo]

Many a

im not sure id put those three all in the same bracket of proven effectiveness.

two of them are just as dodgy as any tma and all of them are dependent on the skill of the practitioner

Welll many a person have told me, what I train is a waste of my time, then go and train their snake in eagles shadow form, and call my art bs, 2 are dodgy says the 60+ , which two?

 

[Gweilo]

im not sure id put those three all in the same bracket of proven effectiveness.

two of them are just as dodgy as any tma and all of them are dependent on the skill of the practitioner

Seeing as you chose 2, my conclusion is you chose a sports style over military?

 

[Headhunter]

But if you cannot master YOU, all your technique, is regimented, your form is readable, your intension is clear, to quote a great Chinese ma, water always finds the best way, efficiency in movement, is far better than intension

Sounds very fortune cookiesh. Fighting doesn’t work like that. No readable form no clear intention based on mastering yourself....it sounds good in rubbish Kung fu movies but very little practicality when the crap hits the fan. Sure you can study all that there’s no harm to it from a learning perspective. But all your water and all your empty cups and your regimented techniques...that ain’t gonna mean much when I’m getting charged at by a 200 pound pissed off drunk guy

 

[Headhunter]

Many a


Welll many a person have told me, what I train is a waste of my time, then go and train their snake in eagles shadow form, and call my art bs, 2 are dodgy says the 60+ , which two?

No training is a waste of time, anything is better than sitting around doing nothing but that doesn’t mean all ways are helpful for a fighting situation. That’s not an insult I train stuff that I know will be pretty useless in a fight...I don’t care I’m a middle aged guy with 2 grown up kids...if I’m getting into Regular fights Then there’s something wrong with me. But I know the difference between what is effective and what isn’t. The problem arises when people think that the not so realistic stuff will actually help them. I’ve got stuff that I know would work for real and some I know that wouldn’t.

 

[jobo]

Seeing as you chose 2, my conclusion is you chose a sports style over military?

i didnt choose anything, i said one has proven effectiveness and two are dodgy, they self select really.even you where able to work out which was which from the clue

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Your movement through tension, makes your recipe fighting, very predictable, a does b does, your style looks nice, but put against modern training, your skill is limited, it cannot handle the likes of mma, krav maga, systema

Plenty of people can fight incredibly well, without having "mastered the self".

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The goal of training is not acquiring many quick and fancy moves, but learning to control your own pride, irritation, fear, anger and self pity.
VV

That may be your goal of training. It's not everyone's. At one point it was a goal of mine to control my anger. I've since learned that it's better not to forcibly control anger; my goal now is simply to enjoy myself. Some people's goal is to lose weight. Some is to be able to brag to their buddies. Some to compete. There is no one goal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The goal of training is not acquiring many quick and fancy moves, but learning to control your own pride, irritation, fear, anger and self pity.

A: What's the purpose of your MA training?
B: My purpose is for self-cultivation, inner peace, culture exchange, be a better person, good against evil, world peace, future of the human being, ...
C: My purpose is to land my fist on my enemy's face.

I like C's simple answer better than B's fancy answer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A: What's the purpose of your MA training?
B: My purpose is for self-cultivation, inner peace, culture exchange, be a better person, good against evil, world peace, future of the human being, ...
C: My purpose is to land my fist on my enemy's face.

I like C's simple answer better than B's fancy answer.

I tend to agree, but that’s irrelevant to B, who probably likes their answer better.