Sword and hammer pt. 1 and 2

[MJS]

In my opinion, in the martial arts context, it is about not making things unnecessarily compicated. And I do make a distinction between "complicated" and "complex". Complicated is not a good thing in this context, while complex can be, depending on what is going on.

Doing a simple thing absolutely correctly can be difficult and complex. There's enough going on with the simple stuff. Why complicate it?

Straight right punch....IMO, a simple parry while stepping off line, followed by a strike, maybe a lock, is easier than dance of death..lol. I'm not a student, but watching clips of Krav Maga...well, that looks a hell of alot simpler than some Kenpo stuff I see..lol.

In my opinion, the SD Tech approach that is prevalent in most kenpo branches is overly complicated. The individual SD Techs are too complicated, and the fact that there are so many of them adds to the complications. It's complicated squared. That's my opinion.

Ras, the approach that you are taking is making it complicated cubed. I don't get it. Maybe it works for you, but honestly, I just don't get it. I think there are easier ways to go about it that are far less complicated and give tremendous results. While some may get results with the complicated way, I'd say it's taking the long way to get there. Like going from San Francisco to Oakland via Des Moines...

Yup

 

[Flying Crane]

Straight right punch....IMO, a simple parry while stepping off line, followed by a strike, maybe a lock, is easier than dance of death..lol. I'm not a student, but watching clips of Krav Maga...well, that looks a hell of alot simpler than some Kenpo stuff I see..lol.

Yeah, I posted on this issue a while back in another thread, seems relevant so I'll say something similar here.

Pek choi in my system is a smashing downward hammerfist. It can be used as a primary strike, or it can be used to attack and even destroy a limb that is attacking you (read: a very very painful block). The most textbook pek choi is from top to bottom, striking downward. But in truth, it can be done in many directions, including horizontal and on diagonals. Once you understand how to use it and where it can be thrown and how effectively it can be used, you realize that you can use a variation of pek choi all over the place, to answer many many types of attacks. The pek choi itself may end the encounter, as you damage the enemy's weapon with it. If not, you can follow with any number of very powerful hand strikes, either one or a series, whatever you want. And you can do the same thing, apply the same defense, against many kinds of attacks.

The guy punches you from the front, doesn't matter which arm he punches with: pek choi to destroy his attack, follow with chuin choi (straight punch), or some other simple and straightforward punch or three.

The guy punches you from an angle, or from the side: you can still answer with pek choi followed with chuin choi.

The guy reaches to grab you from the front, or from an angle or from the side: pek choi followed with chuin choi.

The guy pushes you with one or both hands, or the guy grabs you with one or both hands: yup, still pek choi to destroy his push or grab, followed with chuin choi.

The guy pushes you from behind, you step to regain control of your base, pivot and clear his hands with pek choi, follow with chuin choi (think Crash of the Eagle from Tracys, but done with White Crane techniques).

My student and I one day went thru the list of Tracy techniques and selected a handful to experiment with, looking at what might be good ideas contained therein, but with an eye for delivering the technique like White Crane. Almost every single tech that we played with was distilled down to Pek Choi followed by Chuin choi.

This isn't to say that these two punching techniques are the entirety of the curriculum of white crane. Far from it. But I'm just trying to illustrate how much realistic mileage one can get from very little material, if you understand it well. Nothing is deliberately scripted, it is all just very straight forward and practical.

If you really understand your basics, you realize that that is where it all is at. That's what matters, and the more complex stuff should simply be giving us lessons and examples on how we can use those same basics under many circumstances. Codifiying complicated scenario SD techs is sort of a mis-interpretation of that lesson and probably were never what the material was meant to be, until someone made a deliberate decision to go down that path. I feel that path was probably a mistake. But hey, that's just me. But then taking all those complicated techniques and looking to apply all of them everywhere, well it just seems a bit overdone.

 

[ATACX GYM]

In my opinion, in the martial arts context, it is about not making things unnecessarily compicated. And I do make a distinction between "complicated" and "complex". Complicated is not a good thing in this context, while complex can be, depending on what is going on.

Doing a simple thing absolutely correctly can be difficult and complex. There's enough going on with the simple stuff. Why complicate it?

In my opinion, the SD Tech approach that is prevalent in most kenpo branches is overly complicated. The individual SD Techs are too complicated, and the fact that there are so many of them adds to the complications. It's complicated squared. That's my opinion.

Ras, the approach that you are taking is making it complicated cubed. I don't get it. Maybe it works for you, but honestly, I just don't get it. I think there are easier ways to go about it that are far less complicated and give tremendous results. While some may get results with the complicated way, I'd say it's taking the long way to get there. Like going from San Francisco to Oakland via Des Moines...

Okay fair points and I hear this alot...but consider this answer gentlemen:

My approach is not complication by any means. It's simplification. If you're focused on the preeminence of performance.

See...I think that the well-rounded martial arts student is given the skill sets to perform against the more common and consistent methods of attack on the streets first and even in martial competition second [ if so desired ]. That includes weapons, striking range, clinch range, seated, kneeling, and ground range. It's inclusive of Escape, Rescue, Rescue AND Escape, Multifights, and any combination of the above. It's inclusive of being able to flow through all of the above ranges and demands at any time.

I note that most disciplines don't teach students how to perform in these ranges in each grade/belt rank/whatever. Previously, when the training methods to actually functionally achieve these results weren't accessible widely...teachers had legit reasons for NOT programming these skills into their students. For quite some time now [ thanks to the burgeoning internet ] that claim is wholly invalid. I have a method that does exactly that, 15 rounds at a time.

Furthermore, I see the consequences of martial artists NOT being properly versed in the interlocking, complimentary skill sets of the martial disciplines...and it sucks a whole lot.[ Hey, I'm still improving in every area myself. ] Now what happens is something like this [ especially in disciplines like Kenpo ]:

A student goes to their Kenpo school. Gets taught stuff that may or may not be functional...but isn't well rounded. So let's just pretend that the more common version of the Sword and Hammer actually repels a right punch attack from the right flank. If he tackles you? You're screwed. If he punches with his left hand? You're screwed. If he attacks you anywhere but the right flank? You're screwed. If he knees or kicks you? You're screwed. If he pushes or pulls you? You're screwed.

Almost all of the attacks I listed above are answered elsewhere in the Kenpo curriculum... in more advanced ranks. None of which helps you while you're getting your butt kicked RIGHT NOW. The question is: HOW CAPABLE ARE YOU RIGHT NOW OF DEFENDING EACH AND EVERY MANIFESTATION OF THE MORE COMMON METHODS OF ATTACK?

The answer is: NOT VERY. The reason why is because: YOUR TRAINING METHOD ISN'T SUFFICIENTLY DEEP, VERSATILE, AND FOCUSED ENOUGH TO YIELD THESE RESULTS. Why doesn't your training do that? CUZ YOUR INSTRUCTOR DOESN'T KNOW OR IS PHILOSOPHICALLY OPPOSED TO TEACHING YOU THESE METHODS RIGHT NOW...OR BOTH [ I'm using "you" and "your" in the GENERAL not the SPECIFIC meaning...]

The result is: you're being programmed with weaknesses that your instructor may or may not know about or know how to address; and our instructor may or may not address later. In the interim, your instructor is essentially hoping you don't get your head knocked off prior to you reaching the belt rank that will fill in the gaps of your knowledge.

Sooo...you're a Kenpo White Belt. Feelin pretty snazzy about your grab and pull into any and all of your basic strikes, your front snap kick, blocks, backfist, reverse punch and palm heel. You have a strong but fluid brace of Bow Stances. You've practiced using your techs to the cardinal directions. You're walking to your car after practice. Hobo Homecookin is chillin up against the driver side of your car. Rather than engage Hobo Homecookin in convo, you just walk around your car and attempt to enter your car from the passenger side. You keep an eye on Hobo Homecookin. Hobo Homecookin follows and accosts you for some change. You tell Hobo Homecookin that you have no money; you're wearing gi pants with no pockets. Hobo Homecookin says that he can hear the change janglin in your pocket. You tell Hobo Homecookin that he hears your keys not change because you don't have pockets...and you insert your keys into the passenger side car door to enter your vehicle. Hobo Homecookin tries to reach where he thinks your pockets are. You block his grasping hand with your snappy downward block. Hobo Homecookin yelps in surprise, then swings a haymaker right. You block again and reverse punch him in the gut. Hobo Homecookin doubles over and drops to the pavement.

You're like...FATALITY! KENPO WINS! FLAWLESS VICTORY!!

Then Humongous Hobo Homecookin #2 tackles you to the ground from the back.

You're out of your element. You have zero ground fighting skills. Heavy hobo punches come down on you. And Hobo Homecookin #1 is rising from the ground and starts stomping you, all the while that EFF KARATE KIDS look shines bright in his eye...


...hold up. Let's rewind. See what happens if you have depth and versatility in your techs...as a WHITE BELT.

Let's just skip the gajillion things you coulda done to prevent having to clock Hobo Homecookin #1. For the purposes of this discussion? Scrappin with Hobo Homecookin #1 is inevitable. You took care of him purrty good too.

Matta fact? Let's up the threat level for Hobo Homecookin #1, shall we? Yes we shall.

Hobo Homecookin #1 breaks out a knife and threatens you with it as he reaches for your pocket. You execute a simultaneous outside block and low block...the Universal Block...cuz you practiced for this kind of thing with your blocking practice. You use your blocks like forearm shivers when appropriate, and you specifically practiced blocking the weapon arm of knife wielding BGs along with using your blocks to stop sticks and stuff. Your tech is fast confident and strong, surprising the crap out of Hobo Homecookin #1. You then front kick him in the gut. His knife goes flying one way...he goes flying the OTHER way.

You're feelin that adrenalin high when Humongous Hobo#2 slams into you from the back.

Most Kenpoists almost never train in multifights as a White Belt in their nonversatile school, so you never considered that you were leaving your back exposed to unfriendlies. Bang. Here comes Humongous Hobo #2 all with the blindside blitz like a broke Ray Lewis.

There are techs in Kenpo to deal with this situation...if you're lucky enough to have a functional instructor. Too bad for you that these techs start at Yellow...and you're a White Belt. You're toast.

Unless...taaadow! You spent time training with a versatile Coach like those ATACX GYM guys, and your Coach really knows how to train you. Now you're ready and...

...you apply a double outside block to the big smelling arms encircling you in a arms inside bear hug attack. You immediately flash down with both hands,grab his wrists, and push them down and away. You don't release the hold, but you do manage to get a little wiggle room. You fire a short elbow back into Humongous Hobo #2's gut because you remember all those reps you did in your horse stance where your instructor not only told you about the "hidden elbows" of your deep horse stance with your fists at your sides, your instructor taught you how to use your body mass and Kenpo Body Whip movements to fire off repeated, devastating very close range elbows...even while being clinches. That's what you do. One hand fires a wicked elbow into HH#2's gut, and as part of the Body Whip movement of firing your elbow, your hand returns to grab HH#2's wrist with devastating speed. He gets hit...onetwothreefour times...in the gut just like that. He's weakened now and you take that opportunity to double outside block his arms to get a little room...and in one motion grab both one of his arms with both of yours, step to your left and transition into a Left Nuetral Bow Stance.

Your teacher...being a functional versatile guy...taught you how to use your stances to effect trips and throws.

Over your leg Humongous Hobo #2 goes, as he gets thrown by the Kenpo version of Tai Otoshi. As he hits the ground, you immediately stomp and pin him by...using him as the platform for your Bow Stance while you pivot and face Hobo Homecookin #1. Hobo Homecookin #1 is seriously rethinking this here scrapfest seeing how fast you handled Humongous Hobo#2 and you see he's not loving the idea of messing with your Kenpo...

...when Humongous Hobo #1 snatches you up and slams you on the ground. Yes, life sucks at this moment.

Hobo Homecookin #1 takes heart now and scrambles to help his Humongous homeboy, who is now crouched over you in a high sloppy mount, trying to rain blows down on you [Which you block, as you were taught to do in class. You were taught to use your basic Kenpo blocks on the ground and off your back ] but before Hobo Homecookin #1 can enter the melee? You base down in your Nuetral Stance and shift immediately to your Right Bow Stance, tilting Humongous Hobo #1 to his left...and Humongous Homeboy #2 plants his left palm down to prevent himself from being bucked all the way off, and keeps firing with his right hand. Remembering your block/grab/pull/strike lessons and the hours you spent drilling that tech from off your back, you block Humongous Hobo #1's punch, grab his wrist, pull him and bridge him by shifting from your Right Nuetral Bow to your Left Nuetral Bow...while you crack his chin meat with a heel palm.

Exactly like you did while standing in class, and exactly like you were taught to do on the mat.

Bam! Humongous Hobo #2 is toast and on the parking lot pavement.

Hobo Homecookin #1 tries to flail stupid Bum Fight punches at you, but you front snap kick him in Kenpo's favorite target...the groin. He's toast curled up looking like a human comma on the ground next to his Humongous friend. He's grabbing The Family Jewels and moaning.

That's when Humongous Hobo #1 and Hobo Homecookin #2 come across the street. Humongous Hobo #1 isn't looking very aggressive, and Hobo Homecookin #2 is pissed at his friends.

"You dummies!" he yells. "That's a krotty school! Them guys AIN'T GOT pockets! When I said go panhandle, I meant that gas station next door to the krotty school! See? Now he krotty'd yer ***!'

"Yeah," Humongous Hobo #1 cosigns.

You're in your car driving away like...

FATALITY! KENPO WINS! FLAWLESS VICTORY!!

 

[Josh Oakley]

That was a pretty complex way to say something is simplified...

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[Twin Fist]

this is a very large ball of crap, where to start?

My approach is not complication by any means. It's simplification.

you say so, your way seems to be that you claim your people can do everythign at bb level, from day one. and sorry, i dont buy it. you cant teach a whitebelt blackbelt skills. it just isnt possible.

I note that most disciplines don't teach students how to perform in these ranges in each grade/belt rank/whatever. Previously, when the training methods to actually functionally achieve these results weren't accessible widely...teachers had legit reasons for NOT programming these skills into their students. For quite some time now [ thanks to the burgeoning internet ] that claim is wholly invalid. I have a method that does exactly that, 15 rounds at a time.

********. You cannot teach noobs off the street complicated skills, it takes TIME to even be able to throw a decent punch that wont break thier hands. Anyone that actually got to BB knows this, so you saying otherwise doesnt speak to your credibility

So let's just pretend that the more common version of the Sword and Hammer actually repels a right punch attack from the right flank. If he tackles you? You're screwed. If he punches with his left hand? You're screwed. If he attacks you anywhere but the right flank? You're screwed. If he knees or kicks you? You're screwed. If he pushes or pulls you? You're screwed.

thats why you learn different techniques, to deal with different attacks

DUH
what kind of supposed Blackbelt doesnt know this? there is no ONE technique or training style that gives you the skills to defend against all the variable attacks you mentioned.

this ALONE, your repeated claims of being able to do things that all the REAL blackbelts in the world know is impossible makes me shake my head.

Almost all of the attacks I listed above are answered elsewhere in the Kenpo curriculum... in more advanced ranks. None of which helps you while you're getting your butt kicked RIGHT NOW. The question is: HOW CAPABLE ARE YOU RIGHT NOW OF DEFENDING EACH AND EVERY MANIFESTATION OF THE MORE COMMON METHODS OF ATTACK?"

a 5th grader cant do calculus DUH, and claiming you can teach a noob to handle ALL the variations as fast as you claim you can? do you realize how stupid this makes you sound? it isnt possible, it takes time. it takes months to learn how to move, and YEARS to learn how to move outside of route memorization. Thats not something your "greatness" can change. NO ONE can change the time it takes to gain muscle memory, you cant shortcut the 1000's of punches you have to throw to be able to throw a good one. claiming otherwise is clearly delusional thinking at best, and outright dishonesty at worst

You spent time training with a versatile Coach like those ATACX GYM guys, and your Coach really knows how to train you. Now you're ready and...

uh, You can claim to do anything you like, but anyone that actually got to dan ranks knows it just isnt possible.

unless someone is a whitebelt for about a year, you aint gonna get a white belt to be able to do this crap you are talking.

is that it?? are you keeping people at white for years?

the rest of this post is just more of you writing fan fiction about your days as a ninja, in the CIA and your epic battles with imaginary yakuza ......

and I dont buy it. No one that actually spent the years earning a legit blackbelt in a legit school here on planet reality will believe this crap. As long as you claim to do things that are flat out impossible, you will never be taken seriously

i am actually getting embarrassed for you now.

 

[MJS]

I actually had a reply typed, hit submit, and low and behold, the damn computer locked up....lol. Maybe that was a blessing in disguise...LOL. Anywho....TF pretty much summed up what I had said. IMHO...

1) Simple is easy.

2) You can't teach a newb the stuff listed, because chances are, they're gonna suck, they're gonna be lost, they're gonna be confused.

3) Sure, there're schools out there, that just teach the stuff straight out of bigred, nothing else. Those people will most likely fail, because they never step out of the box, the teacher never takes their students to the next level.

4) A handful of techs is all you need.

5) 1 tech isn't the answer to numerous attacks.

6) The basics are the keys. Master those, and you'll be able to craft a solid, effective response.

7) As Doc said, he doesnt let people talk about 'what ifs' until way later. I agree. If they can't handle a non weapon attack first, dealing with a weapon will be suicide.

8) Dont reinvent the wheel. Why waste time trying to make the square peg go into the round hole, ie: trying to make a Kenpo standup tech work on the ground, when there're proven ground techs already?

9) Mo Smith vs. Mark Coleman. Mo trained the basics of the ground with Frank Shamrock, survived Marks ground attack, got back up and KO'd Mark. Again, the basics are the key.

 

[Twin Fist]

Quoted for mother****ing truth

i actually had a reply typed, hit submit, and low and behold, the damn computer locked up....lol. Maybe that was a blessing in disguise...lol. Anywho....tf pretty much summed up what i had said. Imho...

1) simple is easy.

2) you can't teach a newb the stuff listed, because chances are, they're gonna suck, they're gonna be lost, they're gonna be confused.

3) sure, there're schools out there, that just teach the stuff straight out of bigred, nothing else. Those people will most likely fail, because they never step out of the box, the teacher never takes their students to the next level.

4) a handful of techs is all you need.

5) 1 tech isn't the answer to numerous attacks.

6) the basics are the keys. Master those, and you'll be able to craft a solid, effective response.

7) as doc said, he doesnt let people talk about 'what ifs' until way later. I agree. If they can't handle a non weapon attack first, dealing with a weapon will be suicide.

8) dont reinvent the wheel. why waste time trying to make the square peg go into the round hole, ie: Trying to make a kenpo standup tech work on the ground, when there're proven ground techs already?

9) mo smith vs. Mark coleman. Mo trained the basics of the ground with frank shamrock, survived marks ground attack, got back up and ko'd mark. Again, the basics are the key.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Actually fifth graders ARE doing calculus in various schools throughout the country.

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[Twin Fist]

i have NEVER seen that, and a google search doesnt come up with any school districts teaching calc to 10 years olds

but, lets just say that some one of a kind kid can do calc

i am still pretty sure you get my point Josh.

there are things that have to be learned in steps, and those steps take time. You cannot teach a white belt BB level skills unless you keep them at white for the amount of training it normally takes to reach BB level skills.

 

[Josh Oakley]

http://m.wired.com/magazine/2011/07/ff_khan/all/1

Though for the most part I agree with you. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. But it is theoretically possible to teach a student basic self defense in a very short period of time and for it to be applicable to a variety of ranges. And it is absolutely possible to teach someone in a quick period of time how to punch without breaking their hand. It won't be a supreme ultimate punch that can take out Godzilla, but it will be decently effective though not as strong as it will be with training.

However, retention becomes an issue when we are talking about the training method ATTACX GYM speaks of. if we are talking a solid 40 hour week, then sure. The student would already have to be in good shape, and follow up training would be important, as any skill that is not maintained is lost. But the initial learning and applicability can be achieved relatively quickly. Not black belt level, OBVIOUSLY. But then again, Ras never said black belt level, as far as I can recall.

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[Twin Fist]

your link says ONE kid was doing it, not the whole class, so the exception? it doesnt prove anything other than that the kid is exceptional

but back on topic:

being able to take ONE technique adapt it to 7 different attacks on the fly, is a BB level skill. And not all BB's could do it either. I dont exactly suck at martial arts, and I have 28 years in the game, and i know I couldnt make 5 swords work for a half nelson.

principals? contouring, marraige of gravity, molding? sure.

the technique itself? no

BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO

thats why there are different techniques. To react to different attacks.

Even trying to make ONE technique fit all attacks is stupid, because:
1) it overloads the beginner's ability to absorb information. This isnt like learning history, these are physical skills, muscle memory takes time and repetition to build, you cannot shortcut that, it isnt possible. Reaction time has to be developed, you cant shortcut that either.
2) it would require you changing the technique to the point that it isnt the same technique anymore.

So claiming that you can teach a rank beginner to do it?

i call bull ****.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I actually had a reply typed, hit submit, and low and behold, the damn computer locked up....lol. Maybe that was a blessing in disguise...LOL. Anywho....TF pretty much summed up what I had said. IMHO...

1) Simple is easy.

2) You can't teach a newb the stuff listed, because chances are, they're gonna suck, they're gonna be lost, they're gonna be confused.

3) Sure, there're schools out there, that just teach the stuff straight out of bigred, nothing else. Those people will most likely fail, because they never step out of the box, the teacher never takes their students to the next level.

4) A handful of techs is all you need.

5) 1 tech isn't the answer to numerous attacks.

6) The basics are the keys. Master those, and you'll be able to craft a solid, effective response.

7) As Doc said, he doesnt let people talk about 'what ifs' until way later. I agree. If they can't handle a non weapon attack first, dealing with a weapon will be suicide.

8) Dont reinvent the wheel. Why waste time trying to make the square peg go into the round hole, ie: trying to make a Kenpo standup tech work on the ground, when there're proven ground techs already?

9) Mo Smith vs. Mark Coleman. Mo trained the basics of the ground with Frank Shamrock, survived Marks ground attack, got back up and KO'd Mark. Again, the basics are the key.

As far as your points are concerned?


1) Simple isn't easy. Simple is simple. You can simply fight Anderson Silva. It won't be an easy experience for you. You can simply decide to run in the Olympics. Not an easy thing to do. Simple isn't easy. Simple is SIMPLE.

2) I can do this with noobs. These techs are all basics. They will not suck if you train these techs in an alive manner, and it doesn't take long to do. History is replete with examples from the ancient world to the modern, from the battlefield to sports, that shows how true my statement is. Take your pick...from the African warriors to today's military specops, from the Kali warriors of the ancient Phillipines who did this to the slaves cum army under Touissaint Louverture, from ancient sporting games to today's decathletes, from the African concept of holistic whole human development to The Renaissance Man to today's warrior-scholars.

3) I completely agree with you regarding the whole Big Red thing.

4) I understand and respect the curricula focused on minimal techs. Bruce wasn't the first or only one to champion such a thing. I simply disagree in a few choice areas. That's a matter of preference.

5) 1 tech isn't THEE answer but 1 tech can be used as AN answer in many many more scenarios than it currently is.

6) What Ifs should be built into the tech. The issue isn't whether or not one allows noobs to talk about What Ifs, the issue is which What Ifs are addressed by the teacher, why that's the case, and what their particular preferences and training models are. Because of my extensive grappling and weapon experiences, I program them into the basics I teach my students from Day One. Nobody asks me anything because they see I'm already addressing their questions in the material.

7) Many empty handed defenses flow directly into their armed cousins' defenses. The tech which allows you to defeat a straight right needs very minimal modification to deal with a knife thrust. Etc. With my Gym, training your basics correctly is inclusive of these matters. It won't be an issue of blocking unarmed attacks vs blocking armed attacks. It will come down to...BLOCKING.

8) I'm not reinventing the wheel. Having spent many years on the mat with grapplers and strikers and hybrids, I see where the application of a functional striking tech can go a long way in a grappling scramble or defense, and vice versa. It's a case of having the experience and inclination to apply techs which you know the other guy isn't ready for at a time that he's expecting something totally different. The unanswerable advantage of versatility is that you're able to overwhelm both the novice and the experienced practitioner with a wealth of functional potent techs which from their perspective is unorthodox; they haven't trained to defend it. You therefore have a much muuuch higher chance of defeating them. You also--and I keep repeating this--have to acquire a much much muuuccch deeper grasp of the mechanics of each tech in order to perform this way. The person who can do this has a BETTER GRASP of whatever tech than the person who doesn't. Now...imagine a whole system that takes this approach. The techs are impeccable. And the fighters will be incredibly difficult to overwhelm. Well...welcome to THE ATACX GYM.


I want to make a few points myself:

1) What we're having here is a difference of training paradigms and the opinions drawn therefrom. That's cool. But I have experience in each one of these training methods as applied to various martial arts. Imho there is no question that training in such a way that a single tech is multifaceted is not only smart and amazingly effective but it's a very ancient practice.

2) I met Mo Smith in his IFL days. I met and trained with Frank Shamrock when he was momentarily stationed with Rico in Rico's RAW facility in El Segundo. They have had a fundamental impact on my training philosophy. They would grasp instantly what I'm saying and know it works from having seen it done.

3) I absolutely agree with the crucial supremacy of basics. What we disagree about is how universally applicable those basics are and when they can be applied that way. This again is a matter of training method and knowledge of the instructor, NOT the techs themselves.

4) If any of you are in the Los Angeles area, and have a newbie class or a one night guest teacher spot...I can take your material and teach your students exactly what I said. The results will be exactly as I previously stated. Anyone who uses these concepts and methods [ which predate all of our births ] can and will get similar results. IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW, IT'S HOW AND WHY YOU TRAIN.

5) What do you have to lose? Take a basic tech you know through and through and work with it. See what you can do with it. Then find a way to teach it to noobs. Complete and utter noobs. The process will make you really really really really grasp the mechanics of the basics and how to convey it to noobs, and dramatically magnify your combat capability.

 

[ATACX GYM]

1) So, if thats the case, then why do 99% of the schools out there, all teach the same techs? Does Doc himself teach the techs found in Big Red? So, if I'm reading this right, people were supposed to take the ideas from big red, and create their own tech? So if thats the case, then everyone would have a different Attacking Mace, a different Lone Kimono, and so forth, yet thats not what we see. So is everyone wrong? Is Tatum wrong? Is anyone right?

Doc already answered this, but I'll give it a try and be brief: Using the Ideal Phase tech correctly both binds kenpoists together using kenpo techs as a common medium yet at the same time frees each practitioner to apply Kenpo techs to a specific attack as he/she/they see fit. In essence, the response to each tech may vary but the techs used for each response will be for the most part familiar to most or all Kenpoists. This keeps Motion Kenpo constantly growing vibrant changing yet still solidly rooted in the Kenpo medium and method.

So NO the schools out there copying each other aren't inherently wrong for copying each other, but NO in so doing they're NOT doing what Mr. Parker both wrote and spoke about and NO their copying each other doesn't make their version of the IP correct...it just makes their version POPULAR. Idk if Doc does techs from Big Red but Big Red is supposed to be a GUIDELINE anyway so I don't think he does and we're not supposed to either.

And YES ATACX GYM IS RIGHT to have the versions we do and Head Coach Ras was right all along in almost everything he said.

 

[MJS]

As far as your points are concerned?


1) Simple isn't easy. Simple is simple. You can simply fight Anderson Silva. It won't be an easy experience for you. You can simply decide to run in the Olympics. Not an easy thing to do. Simple isn't easy. Simple is SIMPLE.

2) I can do this with noobs. These techs are all basics. They will not suck if you train these techs in an alive manner, and it doesn't take long to do. History is replete with examples from the ancient world to the modern, from the battlefield to sports, that shows how true my statement is. Take your pick...from the African warriors to today's military specops, from the Kali warriors of the ancient Phillipines who did this to the slaves cum army under Touissaint Louverture, from ancient sporting games to today's decathletes, from the African concept of holistic whole human development to The Renaissance Man to today's warrior-scholars.

3) I completely agree with you regarding the whole Big Red thing.

4) I understand and respect the curricula focused on minimal techs. Bruce wasn't the first or only one to champion such a thing. I simply disagree in a few choice areas. That's a matter of preference.

5) 1 tech isn't THEE answer but 1 tech can be used as AN answer in many many more scenarios than it currently is.

6) What Ifs should be built into the tech. The issue isn't whether or not one allows noobs to talk about What Ifs, the issue is which What Ifs are addressed by the teacher, why that's the case, and what their particular preferences and training models are. Because of my extensive grappling and weapon experiences, I program them into the basics I teach my students from Day One. Nobody asks me anything because they see I'm already addressing their questions in the material.

7) Many empty handed defenses flow directly into their armed cousins' defenses. The tech which allows you to defeat a straight right needs very minimal modification to deal with a knife thrust. Etc. With my Gym, trianing your basics correctly is inclusive of these matters. It won't be an issue of...blocking unarmed attacks vs blocking armed attacks. It will come down to...BLOCKING.

8) I'm not reinventing the wheel. Having spent many years on the mat with grapplers and strikers and hybrids, I see where the application of a functional striking tech can go a long way in a grappling scramble or defense, and vice versa. It's a case of having the experience and inclination to apply techs which you know the other guy isn't ready for at a time that he's expecting something totally different. The unanswerable advantage of versatility is that you're able to overwhelm both the novice and the experienced practitioner with a wealth of functional potent techs which from their perspective is unorthodox; they haven't trained to defend it. You therefore have a much muuuch higher chance of defeating them. You also--and I keep repeating this--have to acquire a much much muuuccch deeper grasp of the mechanics of each tech in order to perform this way. The person who can do this has a BETTER GRASP of whatever tech than the person who doesn't. Now...imagine a whole system that takes this approach. The techs are impeccable. And the fighters will be incredibly difficult to overwhelm. Well...welcome to THE ATACX GYM.


I want to make a few points myself:

1) What we're having here is a difference of training paradigms and the opinions drawn therefrom. That's cool. But I have experience in each one of these training methods as applied to various martial arts. Imho there is no question that training in such a way that a single tech is multifaceted is not only smart and amazingly effective but it's a very ancient practice.

2) I met Mo Smith in his IFL days. I met and trained with Frank Shamrock when he was momentarily stationed with Rico in Rico's RAW facility in El Segundo. They have had a fundamental impact on my training philosophy. They would grasp instantly what I'm saying and know it works from having seen it done.

3) I absolutely agree with the crucial supremacy of basics. What we disagree about is how universally applicable those basics are and when they can be applied that way. This again is a matter of training method and knowledge of the instructor, NOT the techs themselves.

4) If any of you are in the Los Angeles area, and have a newbie class or a one night guest teacher spot...I can take your material and teach your students exactly what I said. The results will be exactly as I previously stated. Anyone who uses these concepts and methods [ which predate all of our births ] can and will get similar results. IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW, IT'S HOW AND WHY YOU TRAIN.

5) What do you have to lose? Take a basic tech you know through and through and work with it. See what you can do with it. Then find a way to teach it to noobs. Complete and utter noobs. The process will make you really really really really grasp the mechanics of the basics and how to convey it to noobs, and dramatically magnify your combat capability.

Regarding Mo Smith. I'm not disputing that you knew him, met him, trained with him, whatever. I'm simply saying that Mo is a stand up fighter, a kickboxer, not a grappler. He trained with Frank, learned the basics, survived on the ground and pound from Mark and got back to his feet for a KO. Here are his stats. A few wins by sub. the rest by strikes.
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Maurice-Smith-175

As for the rest:

1) Simple is easy. Don't argue with me, argue with the dictionary...LOL.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simple

2) Unless someone is focusing on JUST training, nothing else, ie: no job, no social life, or unless the person is an outstanding star from the get go, the average Joe won't grasp stuff as quick. The more the student has to grasp, the higher the odds they won't retain everything. I've gone to numerous seminars, where tons of material is taught. I'm lucky to walk out with 3 things. There isn't enough time to focus on tons of stuff. Now, if you drilled one aspect every day for 3 hrs or more, yeah, maybe, but again, cramming tons of stuff, no matter the method, it isn't happening. Oh it may happen, but I'd question the quality.

3) Ok

4) Its funny, because when the heat is on, people tend to fall back on simple things, that are the bread and butter moves that that person trained. In the end, the person is still ending up with numerous moves, but they're starting with a much smaller building block, which IMHO, is 10 times better. Start with 5 techs. Drill them and then form other responses. Again, in the end, you end up with alot.

5) The tech in its entirety....no. Parts of it...yes. As TF said, how can 5 swords be used for a full nelson? Clyde used PARTS of crashing elbows while in the guard, PARTS of locked wing for the ankle lock. Someone throws a rt. hook at me, I may initiallyl react with the start of 5 swords, but finish with something else.

6) Crawl before you walk, walk before you run. Start cramming a what if, down the throat of a newb, who's barely grasping the initial tech, their heads gonna be spinning...lol. Not saying not to do it, just not in the first lesson.

7) That is true. However, modifications need to be made. I'm talking about Arnis here. I still favor the FMA weapon defense over the Kenpo. Having a FMA background has made me take a 2nd look at many of the Kenpo weapons techs.

8) And you're certainly not the only one to have done this. My point again, is simply this: we have 2 people who're trying to get to the same goal. Person A can take a stand up tech, and try to figure out how to make it work on the ground. Person B can go to a BJJ school, and learn an escape. Both are trying to reach the same goal, but IMO, B will get there quicker. Thats what I mean by reinvent the wheel. You want to learn to drive a tractor trailer...gotta go to a TT school. Driving a small car for 10yrs isnt going to help you. If I want to improve on my punching, I'm going to seek out a boxer, who can coach me, not a TKD school. Wanna grapple? Ok, head to a BJJ, Sambo, Judo, Wrestling school.

 

[Gnarlie]

6) What Ifs should be built into the tech. The issue isn't whether or not one allows noobs to talk about What Ifs, the issue is which What Ifs are addressed by the teacher, why that's the case, and what their particular preferences and training models are. Because of my extensive grappling and weapon experiences, I program them into the basics I teach my students from Day One. Nobody asks me anything because they see I'm already addressing their questions in the material.

Respectfully sir (I really do not mean this as an attack) I suspect there might be a different reason why nobody asks you anything. Even though I'm not a Kempoist, I've been reading this thread with interest from day 1, intrigued by the argument. It's pretty clear that your switch is stuck on 'transmit'.

I've always hesitated to ask someone questions when I think I'm going to be bludgeoned into submission with their views, while they assert that my views are wrong. There are better ways to win me over. Maybe some of your guys might feel that too?

Do you solicit anonymous, direct and honest feedback from your students about your interactions and teaching style? If not, it might be worth considering.

 

[MJS]

Doc already answered this, but I'll give it a try and be brief: Using the Ideal Phase tech correctly both binds kenpoists together using kenpo techs as a common medium yet at the same time frees each practitioner to apply Kenpo techs to a specific attack as he/she/they see fit. In essence, the response to each tech may vary but the techs used for each response will be for the most part familiar to most or all Kenpoists. This keeps Motion Kenpo constantly growing vibrant changing yet still solidly rooted in the Kenpo medium and method.

So NO the schools out there copying each other aren't inherently wrong for copying each other, but NO in so doing they're NOT doing what Mr. Parker both wrote and spoke about and NO their copying each other doesn't make their version of the IP correct...it just makes their version POPULAR. Idk if Doc does techs from Big Red but Big Red is supposed to be a GUIDELINE anyway so I don't think he does and we're not supposed to either.

And YES ATACX GYM IS RIGHT to have the versions we do and Head Coach Ras was right all along in almost everything he said.

Doc wasn't the only one to spend alot of time with Parker. According to Clyde, Tatum also spent much time, yet interestingly enough, Larry and Doc seem to teach different. So, in other words, this is the way its supposed to be: Delayed Sword: Instead of doing what BR says, we could eliminate the pin, we could do the handsword first and then the kick, we could do DS against a punch, we could do something that doesnt look like DS at all. Is that what you're saying Ras?

Actually, the more I think about it, I have to wonder....there're a few different branches of Kajukenbo. Original, Gaylord, Ramos....there're probably some I'm missing, but for the sake of discussion, I'll just use those. Tony Ramos and Charles Gaylord trained with Sijo Emperado, then crafted their own 'branch' of Kaju. I have to wonder....do the Ramos method guys say to the Gaylord guys, "Hey, you know what? You're doing grab art 1 wrong. Its done like this! IF YOU'RE NOT DOING IT MY WAY, YOU'RE WRONG, AND YOU SUCK!!!" I wonder if that goes on. I wonder if Ricksons guys tells Renzos guy they're not doing the guard pass correctly.

 

[Twin Fist]

And YES ATACX GYM IS RIGHT to have the versions we do and Head Coach Ras was right all along in almost everything he said.

yes, Ras is right, according to Ras. And Ras is willing to prove that Ras is right, and if you doubt Ras, then you are the one that is wrong, just ask Ras....

 

[Twin Fist]

there are 4 major branches of Kajukenbo

Emperado's method
Chuan Fa - major divisions are Gaylord and Ramos
Won Hop Kun Do
Tum Pai

And no, they dont get in each others business. They let each other do it thier own way, and thats all good.

But then Kaju people dont take it well when some unknown tells them they dont know what they are doing.

see there is room in kenpo for everyone, you want to make your own techniques? DO IT

but you use a name that is already in use for ONE thing and you use that same exact name for something different, you are gonna catch hell. When you spend all you time talking about how everyone but you is wrong? well, pretty soon no one will listen to you anymore.

Doc wasn't the only one to spend alot of time with Parker. According to Clyde, Tatum also spent much time, yet interestingly enough, Larry and Doc seem to teach different. So, in other words, this is the way its supposed to be: Delayed Sword: Instead of doing what BR says, we could eliminate the pin, we could do the handsword first and then the kick, we could do DS against a punch, we could do something that doesnt look like DS at all. Is that what you're saying Ras?

Actually, the more I think about it, I have to wonder....there're a few different branches of Kajukenbo. Original, Gaylord, Ramos....there're probably some I'm missing, but for the sake of discussion, I'll just use those. Tony Ramos and Charles Gaylord trained with Sijo Emperado, then crafted their own 'branch' of Kaju. I have to wonder....do the Ramos method guys say to the Gaylord guys, "Hey, you know what? You're doing grab art 1 wrong. Its done like this! IF YOU'RE NOT DOING IT MY WAY, YOU'RE WRONG, AND YOU SUCK!!!" I wonder if that goes on. I wonder if Ricksons guys tells Renzos guy they're not doing the guard pass correctly.

 

[Cyriacus]

there are 4 major branches of Kajukenbo

Emperado's method
Chuan Fa - major divisions are Gaylord and Ramos
Won Hop Kun Do
Tum Pai

And no, they dont get in each others business. They let each other do it thier own way, and thats all good.

But then Kaju people dont take it well when some unknown tells them they dont know what they are doing.

see there is room in kenpo for everyone, you want to make your own techniques? DO IT

but you use a name that is already in use for ONE thing and you use that same exact name for something different, you are gonna catch hell. When you spend all you time talking about how everyone but you is wrong? well, pretty soon no one will listen to you anymore.

Isnt there a Bruce Lee quote about that?
Or one of those Famous Asians, anyway.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Respectfully sir (I really do not mean this as an attack) I suspect there might be a different reason why nobody asks you anything. Even though I'm not a Kempoist, I've been reading this thread with interest from day 1, intrigued by the argument. It's pretty clear that your switch is stuck on 'transmit'.

I've always hesitated to ask someone questions when I think I'm going to be bludgeoned into submission with their views, while they assert that my views are wrong. There are better ways to win me over. Maybe some of your guys might feel that too?

Do you solicit anonymous, direct and honest feedback from your students about your interactions and teaching style? If not, it might be worth considering.

This is a good post and honest questions. I like this.

Gnarlie my friend...every day after class I have an open session wherein I ask my students what they like about class, what they don't like, what questions they have, what suggestions that they have. I give them my email so they can drop it anonymously via email if they want. I receive lots of each at the beginning of new classes. We discuss and modify and then apply. When I say nobody asks me anything? It's because I announce at the beginning of every class that we have a question and answer session at the end of every class. And we respond to the issues we're informed about.

I have made numerous changes to my various posts based upon the advice I've received from guys like elder99 on this site, Josh Oakley, Doc, Doc Dave innahouse, sumdumguy, Thesemindz, MJS, Flying Crane, and others. Although I tend to energetically defend positions and issues that I know something about...my switch is never stuck on transmit, my door is never closed, my mind is never sealed. It oftentimes though takes awhile for some people grasp what I'm saying. This thread, for example, shows that since page 1 I've been saying that the common expression for the so-called Kenpo IP is NOT the default or proper expression. I received copious flames and outraged comments as a result.

I was right.

There are those who mistake the fact that I energetically defended a position which I knew to be right for me being arrogant or egotistical and unflinching when...I was just right. Interestingly, it was THEY who were being reactionary and unflinching in many cases. Not I.

My friend, I am not at all offended by your post nor do I interpret it as an attack.

What I'm saying that I do here is nothing new. The 15 Round progressions that I speak of are nothing new. Bompa crafted the Periodized Training System and the 15 round progressions that I use are nothing but microcycles of that concept. Every Olympian--athletic and academic--operates under the same or very similar principles; just applied to their purposes. Decathletes perform wonderfully in multiple sports back to back, and as a result are referred to as THE BEST ATHLETES IN THE WORLD...by other athletes. The Renaissance Man is lauded in literature to this very day...and the Renaissance Man is in essence the lifelong academic decathlete. MMA athletes are vaunted examples in sport combat as to what knowing multiple skill sets and applying them creatively can do for you...and that you really have to deal with the intricacies of specialized training, conditioning, etc. and coordinating all of this into a game plan that deals with the upcoming challenges.


Well, we at THE ATACX GYM do the same thing that all of the above mentioned worthies do...just for SD first, martial tournies next and straight out sports events [ we have football, bball, track, baseball, soccer, wrestling, and other athletes who come and train with us for their respective sports ] next, yoga and fitness as well [ we're getting more and more of the latter; they will soon outnumber us all ].