surefire flashlights...

[Kenpodoc]

I've read Don's article. He's a fanboy of them, not an expert in their use. Simple physics dictates they increase force. Nothing more. At the following link, I argue my opinion on pocket sticks. I'm really not up for repeating it here.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398993

Slightly increased forces rendered over a smaller area with less give lead to dramatically greater injury potential. Biophysics is rarely simple.

Jeff

 

[RoninPimp]

Less effective than what? Tools are simply what they are tools. Here is a simple tool, legal in all 50 states and likely even legal in the UK. Certainly less effective than a hand gun but none the less a potentially helpful tool. Personally I wouldn't turn down any edge, even a small one in a confrontation with a determined attacker.

Jeff

-Less effective than a real weapon like a stick or club.

 

[Kreth]

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[Makalakumu]

Physicists have studied Mike Tyson's punching and have recorded that he used to punch with 30,000 newtons of force. Assuming that Iron Mike's fist has a surface area of 3 in by 4 in, this equates to an applied pressure of 2500 N/in^2.

If we are to recalculate this using the smaller surface area of a flashlight, (1 in^2), we suddenly see a 12 fold increase in the amount of applied force - 30,000 N/in^2. In English standard units, the amount of pressure applied by the fist would be 555 lbs/in^2 while the amount applied by the flashlight would be 6666 lbs/in^2.

This is a substantial difference and a substantial advantage offered by the use of this weapon.

 

[Phil Elmore]

This is a substantial difference and a substantial advantage offered by the use of this weapon.

Agreed. That is a simple fact. To claim otherwise is to ignore the realities of both physics and biology.

 

[Cryozombie]

Yes, pocket stick sized flashlights are as effective as pocket sticks. Which imo isn't very much.

Well, I suppose there's the test for that... lets find someone who really knows how to use one, you let them crack you upside the head full force with it. If it does nothing, you win and we all acknowlage they are useless, if it ****s you up than you admit you are wrong...

Deal?

 

[Don Roley]

-Less effective than a real weapon like a stick or club.

Lets keep this in context. A stick is less effective than a pistol. Does that make the stick useless?

What about a stick and a flashlight to blind the guy?

And I can carry a flashlight almost anywhere. I can even carry it on a plane. Can I do that with an ASP baton?

There are limitations to everything. But to reject them totally instead of taking into account their limitations leads to you not being able to use anything if you follow it to it's logical conclusion.

 

[RoninPimp]

Physicists have studied Mike Tyson's punching and have recorded that he used to punch with 30,000 newtons of force. Assuming that Iron Mike's fist has a surface area of 3 in by 4 in, this equates to an applied pressure of 2500 N/in^2.

If we are to recalculate this using the smaller surface area of a flashlight, (1 in^2), we suddenly see a 12 fold increase in the amount of applied force - 30,000 N/in^2. In English standard units, the amount of pressure applied by the fist would be 555 lbs/in^2 while the amount applied by the flashlight would be 6666 lbs/in^2.

This is a substantial difference and a substantial advantage offered by the use of this weapon.

-Bad analogy. Mike Tyson is not a threat to me. His strike was not a hammer fist. That increase in force may impact the smaller surface harder, so it will likely damage the immidiate area more, but it won't rattle the brain any more. That's because the overall force applied to the head would be the same.

 

[RoninPimp]

Well, I suppose there's the test for that... lets find someone who really knows how to use one, you let them crack you upside the head full force with it. If it does nothing, you win and we all acknowlage they are useless, if it ****s you up than you admit you are wrong...

Deal?

-Your strawman proves pocket sticks are effective in SD how?

 

[RoninPimp]

Lets keep this in context. A stick is less effective than a pistol. Does that make the stick useless?

What about a stick and a flashlight to blind the guy?

And I can carry a flashlight almost anywhere. I can even carry it on a plane. Can I do that with an ASP baton?

There are limitations to everything. But to reject them totally instead of taking into account their limitations leads to you not being able to use anything if you follow it to it's logical conclusion.

-My best argument from the bladeforums thread before I get sucked into typing more than I want to...

-For me it is about a tool that may have some use for LEO's being adopted by civilians. They add to strikes but not by enough imo. They also add an unecessary step to the "SD gameplan". If a civilian's life is not in danger, they aren't needed and could be seen as an escalation. If the situation is life threatning, then you should be using a weapon capable of deadly force. So in a nutshell, they aren't that great a weapon to begin with, and they don't fit into the "SD gameplan" anyway. So why bother carrying one?

 

[Makalakumu]

Mike Tyson is not a threat to me.

Most likely true, but that isn't the point. The 12 fold multiplier is the point.

His strike was not a hammer fist.

There are many ways to strike with a chizikunbo, including basic boxing strikes. A hammerfist is only one way. With all ways, the decrease in surface area, increases the applied force.

That increase in force may impact the smaller surface harder, so it will likely damage the immidiate area more, but it won't rattle the brain any more.

On the surface, this violates Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If 12 times the amount of force is applied, then one can expect 12 times the amount of reaction. Perhaps you have an explanation that would explain this apparent contradiction?

It seems that logic would dictate that striking someone with a flashlight would not only rattle someones brain around in their head, but it would also break their skull wide open and knock the darn thing out. 6666 p/si is incredible! Granted, not everyone can punch like Iron Mike, yet, the advantage seems physically clear.

That's because the overall force applied to the head would be the same.

The essence of the math above was to show that the amount of force applied was NOT the same. Pressure is a measure of applied force. In this case, the weapon of choice more efficiently applies force when compared to a weapon of greater surface area.

 

[Cryozombie]

-Your strawman proves pocket sticks are effective in SD how?

Well lets see here is your original Statement:

Originally Posted by RoninPimp
Yes, pocket stick sized flashlights are as effective as pocket sticks. Which imo isn't very much.

I dont see the word SELF DEFENCE in there anywere... only the word EFFECTIVE. Thanks for playing, since you had to change the context I will take that to mean you are unwilling to get hit by one...

Is that because they are effective? If they aren't, why not let someone whack you? C'mon, man... you said it, time to pressure test that theory of yours.

 

[Makalakumu]

So why bother carrying one?

Let's say that somebody is scrawny and can only punch with 46.25 lbs/in^2. Striking with a flashlight, suddenly turns that into 555 lbs/in^2 and they can suddenly apply as much pressure as Mike Tyson! Seems like a good reason to me!

 

[RoninPimp]

Most likely true, but that isn't the point. The 12 fold multiplier is the point.



There are many ways to strike with a chizikunbo, including basic boxing strikes. A hammerfist is only one way. With all ways, the decrease in surface area, increases the applied force.



On the surface, this violates Newton's Third Law of Motion. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. If 12 times the amount of force is applied, then one can expect 12 times the amount of reaction. Perhaps you have an explanation that would explain this apparent contradiction?

It seems that logic would dictate that striking someone with a flashlight would not only rattle someones brain around in their head, but it would also break their skull wide open and knock the darn thing out. 6666 p/si is incredible! Granted, not everyone can punch like Iron Mike, yet, the advantage seems physically clear.



The essence of the math above was to show that the amount of force applied was NOT the same. Pressure is a measure of applied force. In this case, the weapon of choice more efficiently applies force when compared to a weapon of greater surface area.

-My point is that the overall force remains the same. It may be applied to a smaller area so there is potentially more damage at the point of impact, but not any more force being applied to the larger target. Try this example...Hit a car door with a hammer fist. Most adult males would dent it. Hit the car door with a hammer fist while holding an ice pick. Most likely you'd get a small hole in the door. The local force applied with the icepick was much higher (assuming the same strike force). The overall force felt by the car was the same in both cases.

 

[Apollo]

Hmm. Getting hit by the soft palm of a hand, or hit by a hard piece of metal traveling at the same speed. I bet that hard item would hurt more.

The comment was made "Less effective than a real weapon like a stick or club."

Well, I don't know about you folks, but a guy carrying a piece of rattan or hardwood looks suspicious. A "caveman" club more so. A modern club such as a baton, nightstick, etc, even more so, unless you're LEO. A flashlight is beneath the notice of most folks.

But, lets look at this another way.
What is "a stick"?
A length of hard wood or rattan. A tool to impart a blunt force impact to a target.
What is a "baton"?
See: truncheon: a short stout club

Ok, so both are simply hand held lengths of hard material, used to impart a blunt force impact to a target.

So, what is a flashlight?
Well, discounting the crap one finds at the dollar store, the average hand light is a short clublike object. Made of metal, it can withstand several impacts with a hard object. I'm thinking of Mag lights or similar. Not the K-Mart specials made out of cheap plastic.

Seems very similar to me, especially when in the hands of someone who knows how to utilize the tool.

The comments about the lack of effectiveness of pocket sticks and their ilk however reveals a lack of familiarity with the tool or it's uses. I don't carry pocket sticks, but I do buy solidly built pens. Those tend to get past security quite easily. But they don't teach the use of such objects in sport arts I've noticed.

 

[RoninPimp]

Well lets see here is your original Statement:


I dont see the word SELF DEFENCE in there anywere... only the word EFFECTIVE. Thanks for playing, since you had to change the context I will take that to mean you are unwilling to get hit by one...

Is that because they are effective? If they aren't, why not let someone whack you? C'mon, man... you said it, time to pressure test that theory of yours.

-There are 2 issues here. Kn00b on bladeforums brought this up I believe. They are tactical and strategic.

Strategically pocket sticks just don't fit for civilians. Empty hands are perfectly sutable to non life threatning situations. To use more is asking for legal trouble. If you are justified to use lethal force in an SD situation, why choose a pocket stick? Why not a club, knife, or firearm? They all provide reliable lethal force. The pocket stick does not.

Tactically, a pocket stick adds little. It has none of the leverage a longer stick does. Getting hit with one will hurt. It will likely draw blood quicker than empty hands. It will not stop a determined attacker.

 

[Apollo]

-My point is that the overall force remains the same. It may be applied to a smaller area so there is potentially more damage at the point of impact, but not any more force being applied to the larger target. Try this example...Hit a car door with a hammer fist. Most adult males would dent it. Hit the car door with a hammer fist while holding an ice pick. Most likely you'd get a small hole in the door. The local force applied with the icepick was much higher (assuming the same strike force). The overall force felt by the car was the same in both cases.

True. But if it was your temple on the impact zone, one would knock you loopier, the other possibly kill you.

But, we're not talking a fine point item such as an ice pick. We're talking about a blunt force impact from a close to knife hand thickness. I recall Remy Presas being quoted as saying "Hardwoods are for killing". Well, since metal is normally harder than wood, it would (get it would, ha ha) stand to reason that getting hit in the head with a maglight or similar could be dangerous, even deadly. Blunt force has killed more historically than edged weapons. (which is why some swords weren't sharpened).

 

[RoninPimp]

Hmm. Getting hit by the soft palm of a hand, or hit by a hard piece of metal traveling at the same speed. I bet that hard item would hurt more.

The comment was made "Less effective than a real weapon like a stick or club."

Well, I don't know about you folks, but a guy carrying a piece of rattan or hardwood looks suspicious. A "caveman" club more so. A modern club such as a baton, nightstick, etc, even more so, unless you're LEO. A flashlight is beneath the notice of most folks.

But, lets look at this another way.
What is "a stick"?
A length of hard wood or rattan. A tool to impart a blunt force impact to a target.
What is a "baton"?
See: truncheon: a short stout club

Ok, so both are simply hand held lengths of hard material, used to impart a blunt force impact to a target.

So, what is a flashlight?
Well, discounting the crap one finds at the dollar store, the average hand light is a short clublike object. Made of metal, it can withstand several impacts with a hard object. I'm thinking of Mag lights or similar. Not the K-Mart specials made out of cheap plastic.

Seems very similar to me, especially when in the hands of someone who knows how to utilize the tool.

The comments about the lack of effectiveness of pocket sticks and their ilk however reveals a lack of familiarity with the tool or it's uses. I don't carry pocket sticks, but I do buy solidly built pens. Those tend to get past security quite easily. But they don't teach the use of such objects in sport arts I've noticed.

-No argument from me on a pocket stick hurting more. My argument is that it is not enough to be the deciding factor.

 

[Carol]

Personally, I'm pretty much sold on the Executive Defender with the lanyard kit. That will allow me to connect with an attacker while staying out of reach. Haven't bought it yet, probably will this week. My office is in a relatively isolated area, and I'm about to start working evening coverage.

I can carry a flashlight across state lines without worrying about the laws in either state. This is a big advantage to me up here where the states are REALLY small.

Is it all of my self defense? Heck no. But, it seems like a damn good idea for my own situation.

 

[Apollo]

-There are 2 issues here. Kn00b on bladeforums brought this up I believe. They are tactical and strategic.

Strategically pocket sticks just don't fit for civilians. Empty hands are perfectly sutable to non life threatning situations. To use more is asking for legal trouble. If you are justified to use lethal force in an SD situation, why choose a pocket stick? Why not a club, knife, or firearm? They all provide reliable lethal force. The pocket stick does not.

Tactically, a pocket stick adds little. It has none of the leverage a longer stick does. Getting hit with one will hurt. It will likely draw blood quicker than empty hands. It will not stop a determined attacker.

Strategically - they can be used to target pressure points and other soft targets.

Tactically - Any tool requires proper familarity and training. Your comments reveal you do not have either though.