Suffering and the vain quest for significance

[Ken Morgan]

Question: Many have criticized Pat Robertson's suggestion that the catastrophic earthquake in Haiti was the work of the devil or a form of divine punishment. But if one believes God is good and intervenes in the world, why does God allow innocents to suffer? Why does God allow Haiti to suffer so much? What is the best scriptural text or explanation of that problem you've ever read?

It is the year 2010. Over the last three to four centuries we have amassed a huge amount of knowledge about the Earth and its place in the universe. There is much yet to learn, but the knowledge we have acquired would have astounded our forefathers.

Thanks to marvelously sophisticated technology, itself the result of an accurate understanding of the workings of the universe, humans have walked on the moon. We have landed explorer robots on Mars, and have photographed the nucleus of Halley's Comet, the surface of Betelgeuse and new planetary systems forming in Orion. We know the approximate composition of the individual planets and comets, we know the approximate number of stars in our galaxy and of galaxies in our universe. We know the size of the universe, and its age, and the forces that drive its expansion. We know which stars are hot and which are cool, which ones are new and which are ancient beyond all imagining. We have detected planets in other solar systems, and know their size and the shape of their orbit, and whether it is possible that they contain any of the chemical prerequisites for life. Back on our own planet, we know how it was formed, and when. We can read its history, inscribed forever in the rocks. We know what forms its surface and the underlying mantle, and can make an informed guess at what makes up its core. We know how life evolved from its earliest, infinitely primitive forms into the staggering array of species we see around us today. We know what causes night and day, the seasons, and the tides. We can predict to the minute when the next solar eclipse will take place, and from where it will be visible.

And - crucially, in the context of this question - we know exactly what causes earthquakes.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/...ring_and_the_vain_quest_for_significance.html

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

Excellent article.

I'm agnostic. When I consider the arguments in favor of a loving, mindful, every-hair-on-your-head-is-numbered god, they seem specious. I've heard people say "How can you not believe in god? Just look around you at all the beauty in the world! All this is evidence of god's handiwork!" When I ask about human suffering, they discuss free will. When I counter with the argument that a loving god might refrain from visiting suffering on people ill-equipped to benefit from any lessons inherent in the process, they argue tht we humans are too puny to understand the mystery of god's plan for the universe.

To claim that human suffering is part of god's mysterious plan is a naturalistic fallacy (a fallacy that claims that if something is natural, then it is good or right). This forms the shaky basis for another claim, that people who suffer catastrophe are being punished by god, which is Robertson's assertion.

I personally see no evidence for a loving god in the universe. Too much special pleading is required for that argument to be upheld. It seems to me that if there is any evidence to be found in the natural world and our place in it, then it points to the existence of a capricious, whimsical, often-absent and wantonly juvenile god.

 

[seasoned]

Question: Many have criticized Pat Robertson's suggestion that the catastrophic earthquake in Haiti was the work of the devil or a form of divine punishment. But if one believes God is good and intervenes in the world, why does God allow innocents to suffer? Why does God allow Haiti to suffer so much? What is the best scriptural text or explanation of that problem you've ever read?

It is the year 2010. Over the last three to four centuries we have amassed a huge amount of knowledge about the Earth and its place in the universe. There is much yet to learn, but the knowledge we have acquired would have astounded our forefathers.

Thanks to marvelously sophisticated technology, itself the result of an accurate understanding of the workings of the universe, humans have walked on the moon. We have landed explorer robots on Mars, and have photographed the nucleus of Halley's Comet, the surface of Betelgeuse and new planetary systems forming in Orion. We know the approximate composition of the individual planets and comets, we know the approximate number of stars in our galaxy and of galaxies in our universe. We know the size of the universe, and its age, and the forces that drive its expansion. We know which stars are hot and which are cool, which ones are new and which are ancient beyond all imagining. We have detected planets in other solar systems, and know their size and the shape of their orbit, and whether it is possible that they contain any of the chemical prerequisites for life. Back on our own planet, we know how it was formed, and when. We can read its history, inscribed forever in the rocks. We know what forms its surface and the underlying mantle, and can make an informed guess at what makes up its core. We know how life evolved from its earliest, infinitely primitive forms into the staggering array of species we see around us today. We know what causes night and day, the seasons, and the tides. We can predict to the minute when the next solar eclipse will take place, and from where it will be visible.

And - crucially, in the context of this question - we know exactly what causes earthquakes.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/...ring_and_the_vain_quest_for_significance.html

Yes, we know all of this, and can't even cure the common cold. The biggest mystery on earth is the human body. It is complex beyond thinking. I guess s- - t just happens.

 

[grydth]

Ken, I don't pretend to know whether there's a God(s) or not. (Closest thing to a supreme being I know for certain of is my wife.)

Many silly or dangerous religious beliefs have been exploded... but a lot of what passes for "science" has been refuted as well.

If there is a God, I've never seen a verified legal license from the Deity entitling the bearer to make mean, dangerous or self serving statements to exploit catastrophes. If you can't say or do anything to help, how about just STFU.... in the name of the Lord?

 

[Blade96]

i despise people like pat robertson.

and for the record, I'm an 'agnostic-atheist'

and that means I say i do not know there is god or not (agnostic) but I do not believe on faith (atheism)

 

[Sukerkin]

Interesting way to put it, Blade. I have been Agnostic since my mid-teens when my intelligence kicked a hole through the religious propoganda I'd been indoctrinated with and I've never looked back. Really, I should say I am an Atheist but the venomous tricksy part with religion is that is unproveable one way or the other due to an ever enduring lack of evidence.

 

[Sukerkin]

As to the fellow mentioned in the OP, I think Grydth had the best advice for him.

 

[girlbug2]

Just for the record, I'm a christian and I also agree that Pat Robertson should ST*U. He or anybody else that claims to know God's purposes for every tragedy or natural disaster--and especially anybody who has the poor taste to blame the victims--is the sort of arrogant talking head that our religion could do without.

 

[Carol]

Question: Many have criticized Pat Robertson's suggestion that the catastrophic earthquake in Haiti was the work of the devil or a form of divine punishment.

I suppose its easier than rolling up your sleeves and actually trying to help.


But if one believes God is good and intervenes in the world, why does God allow innocents to suffer?

"We could call order by the name of God, but it would be an impersonal God. There's not much personal about the laws of physics." - Dr. Stephen Hawking

Well, what is the nature of God? Isn't that something that theologians have been debating for centuries? Maybe God has more than one nature, being omnipotent and all that.

I think the Vedic mythology and scriptures offer a bit more realistic of a picture than the Bible, as they show life occurring as a cycle. Granted, its a cycle that lasts through births and deaths due to reincarnation but still a cycle.

Take an ecosystem....a healthy, thriving ecosystem. There may be countless symbiotic relationships within the ecosystem, but all of them depend on a life cycle. Life leads to death which leads to life which leads to death, etc. If God creates and oversees this ecosystem, then he understands how life must work as a cycle.


Why does God allow Haiti to suffer so much?

I don't think there are any scriptures that promise freedom from suffering. Instead they offer ways of coping with suffering.

The Buddhists do from a more philosophical standpoint: "Suffering is caused by desire, by eliminating desire, one can eliminate suffering"

To me, Jewish scriptures and the Old Testament tend to refer to suffering as somethig very matter-of-fact: "Though my flesh and my heart fail, God is the rock of my heart, my portion forever." - Psalms 73:26 (NAB)

Christians add that that Christ suffers along with us "If [one body] part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it." - 1st Corinthians 12:25-26

Sikhs take stronger language and use a cyclical approach to suffering, indicating that suffering is a cycle by itself that humbles us and reminds us to appreciate what we have.

Suffering is the medicine, and pleasure the maladay, for where there is pleasure, there is no desire for God. - Rehras Sahib

So, the uncomfortable answer could be...God allows suffering because it is needed fof the cycle of life.


What is the best scriptural text or explanation of that problem you've ever read?

"Suffering is part of a life cycle" is a poor response to someone asking the question. If someone is asking such a question, chances are they are struggling with loss, or the concept of loss, and are more in need of companionship and fellowship than an academic study.

That's not being politically correct, its understanding the nature of the conversation. It would be equally inappropriate to be delivering a scientific presentation about earthquakes and peppering it with comments such as "10,000 people died and it was horrible" or "it is a shame that earthquakes cause so much suffering". The point for the talk isn't comfort, it is science.

After 9/11, my ex-bf said that he saw someone relatively famous (one of the televangelists) on TV. I was expecting something snivelly like Pat Robertson's comment so I just said "Uh huh, and what did he have to say?" My bf said he thought he was very honest, that someone had asked "why does God allow people to suffer like this", and his answer was along the lines of this is a question many people ask, but we don't really know. That pleasantly surprised me.

The practice of Christianity in other countries can vary widely from what it is in the United States. Sikhs that convert have been known to change their name to show that they follow a Messiah. The Chinese (among others) spend more of a time emphasizing a personal relationship with God, and emphasize more introspective worship instead of dogmatic worship.

The latter is more inline with my own philosophy and approach. Working one's way through difficult issues to me is less about being told what the answer is and more about meditating on one's studies and contemplating the question.

 

[Ken Morgan]

If there is a God, I've never seen a verified legal license from the Deity entitling the bearer to make mean, dangerous or self serving statements to exploit catastrophes.

What? You mean no one has a Menkyo Kaiden from god? So no one has any idea what he means or wants? You mean that no one has the precise scriptures then? You mean it’s all made up?

Blasphemy!

As a libertarian, believe whatever you wish as long as you don’t shove it down anyone else’s throat, or force people to support you through the public purse.

You do not need religion in order to do good in the world. You do not need god to have morality. You simply do not need god or religion or faith to be a good human being.

However if you chose to follow that route, that path in life, I wish you all the best and I hope you find whatever it is you’re looking for, just don’t lose your brains or your individuality in the process. Your money can do a lot of good in the world if you give it to legitimate charities, instead of to greedy televangelists preying on your compassion.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I don’t know Carol, I’ve never bought into that old, “suffering is good for the soul”, or “adversity builds character” arguments. If that were all true, if we became better individuals due to our dealings with hardship and personal demons, then the billions of poor, unhealthy, uneducated and abused men, women and children alive and dead would be the most blessed and enlightened people to have ever existed on the face of the earth.

We all know that ain’t true.

 

[Omar B]

I'm an atheist so I've never put much stock in what the evangelicals say. I'm sure those who are religious find something satisfying in it, but really, I don't need to hear another word about it.

Ken - It's how they make the huddled masses happy, by telling them suffering is good for them. Just like when mom used to tell you bitter medicine is good for you ... only in that case it was true.

 

[Carol]

I don’t know Carol, I’ve never bought into that old, “suffering is good for the soul”, or “adversity builds character” arguments. If that were all true, if we became better individuals due to our dealings with hardship and personal demons, then the billions of poor, unhealthy, uneducated and abused men, women and children alive and dead would be the most blessed and enlightened people to have ever existed on the face of the earth.

We all know that ain’t true.

Ohhh..nononononono...I don't buy in to it either. I was just trying to say that there doesn't seem to be an indication in scripture that God is good = no more suffering.

I think it does mean that living in a mortal world means that there is suffering and horrible things. But that one of the most important things we can do as humans is to help alleviate suffering when it happen...in however one can manage to do so. Some might do it by contributing to a humanitarian effort. Others may do it by comforting a friend. Others may be motivate to study medicine so they can direclty help more people suffer less.

I think the point of the "suffering is good" message was that sometimes suffering can be a reality check that brings you to appreciate what you haven't appreciated before, or to inspire someone with little hope that God will reward them for their troubles. But...I think that message is second to the main message that suffering is horrible. Suffering hurts. And one should remember how bad suffering hurts and use that as motivation to giving a hand to others when they are suffering.

This is a message that has been corrupted in to an apathetic sneer which is just....horrible. Compare Robertson's comment to that of a young boy. A friend of mine has a son that is turning either 8 or 9. She was planning a birthday party when her son came to her and asked if Mom could take the money she was going to spend on the birthday party and send it to the children in Haiti instead.

I know which behaviour I'd like to emulate.

 

[Jenny_in_Chico]

I don’t know Carol, I’ve never bought into that old, “suffering is good for the soul”, or “adversity builds character” arguments. If that were all true, if we became better individuals due to our dealings with hardship and personal demons, then the billions of poor, unhealthy, uneducated and abused men, women and children alive and dead would be the most blessed and enlightened people to have ever existed on the face of the earth.

We all know that ain’t true.

Health and wealth are desirable things, it is true. But everyone lives in the heaven or hell created within their own minds. A rich woman sitting alone 2 am in her bedroom, wondering where her husband is, feels just as much pain as a woman with a wandering husband sitting on a dirt floor. I've personally known women in exactly those two types of environments, living through exactly the same pain and shame. It may be a sweeping statement that “adversity builds character”, but it is a fallacy to assume that wealth protects us from pain.

 

[Carol]

I actually don't think adversity builds character per se. I think actions build character, and those actions can be positive or negative circumstances. When I first saw my new (adopted) niece, she came running out of the house to my car yelling "Aunt Carol! Aunt Carol!" and trying to give me a hug. How can that not build your own character? How can that not inspire you to be a better person and think about living for someone other than yourself

A person lying somewhere with a broken leg, whether they are a disaster victim, or a skiir that just got in to an accident, or an older person that just fell...that person isn't necessarily building character, at least not the way I see it. They are trying to survive the pain. They don't need a priest or spiritual mentor, they need an orthopaedist.

What I don't understand -- and I see this in multiple faiths -- is the populist undercurrent that "suffering in others is an OK thing". Too many times I've heard "adversity is charcter building" as a euphanism for "Shut up and deal with it."

 

[Brian King]

How many parents here honestly would if they could wave the magic wand ensure that their child would never get a grade in school under an A? That their child would never fall off a bicycle. Every at bat would hit a home run. Would never experience that first puppy love heart break. That their child would never be told no?

If you had the ability to start your life over and to never make the mistakes that you made, never felt the pain that you felt, to never have failed…would you?

Carol wrote:

“I actually don't think adversity builds character per se. I think actions build character, and those actions can be positive or negative circumstances.”

I agree. Adversity shows our character as does winning. It is how we win and how we get thru the adversity that builds and shapes our character in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Ken Morgan

“I don’t know Carol, I’ve never bought into that old, “suffering is good for the soul”, or “adversity builds character” arguments. If that were all true, if we became better individuals due to our dealings with hardship and personal demons, then the billions of poor, unhealthy, uneducated and abused men, women and children alive and dead would be the most blessed and enlightened people to have ever existed on the face of the earth.

We all know that ain’t true.”

I believe Ken, that with God’s help the poor, unhealthy, uneducated and abused men, women and children can indeed be among the most blessed and enlightened people as can be the rich, healthy, educated. The abuser and abused can become blessed and enlightened. The worlds history is filled with examples and if we look and care to notice around us we can see examples.
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Regarding Pat Robertson’s silly ideas and comments in the news recently I can say that they are not mine so I am glad that I do not have to justify or live with them. But I will say that even with his zany ideas he is a better man than I am in my opinion. He and his group have reached out and helped so many more people than I have or than I ever will be able to. Just look at the latest comment that started this thread and so many articles, letters to the editors, death threats and hate directed back at Pat Robertson. That comment was made while he was hosting a Haiti earthquake relief effort (long before Hollywood aired their program last night) His group has been in Haiti for years if not decades supporting and feeding the poor, running orphanages and trying to make the Haitians world here on Earth just a little better, even before the dust setteled they were helping. Before this human tragedy I myself had not sent a dime to Haiti other than supporting local missionaries who have been called to serve in Haiti and adoptions of Haitian children. For all those that hate and despise this Pat Robertson man, how much money was raised at that event he sponsored for the suffering in Haiti? All the articles and letters and posts, the many times that his silly statement was repeated how many reported that it was during a fund raising event for the people of Haiti and how many reported the amount given? For all those that hate and despise, do you also then hate and despise those that accept the gifts? Should the Haitians in their righteous anger refuse his help? With all the articles, letters posts and repeated stories, how many of those writing them, of those reading them have stepped up and helped even a hundredth of what that man did. It is easy to read that comment, to hear the blurb on the radio and point and say what a hateful man he must be. Much more difficult to try to see the whole man and see the good thealong with the bad. SO much easier to see the bad and then feel better ourselves for seeing the bad and expressing our anger at that idea. SO much more difficult to see the bad and the good and realize that even with all that bad, they might they still be better than I?

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Thanks for the thread Ken. It has made me think a bit and feel even more grateful to be under His protection.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Ken Morgan]

Brian the world may be filled with examples of the unwashed masses attaining enlightenment and blessings, but sadly for 99% of these people, they do not.

You do not have to be religious to do good, to have morality, or to achieve any level of enlightenment.

I know that the majority of money I give to Doctors without Borders and the International Red Cross will get to the people who need it. Giving money to PR, may end up with him buying more racehorses, or buying blood Diamonds from Liberia, or providing him with a forum to rant against homosexuals, communists and every other religion in existence.

If you choose to have religion in your life, if it helps you, I’m honestly happy for you, but I would suggest PR is not a role model to emulate. There are many other more worthy religious people to choose from.

 

[Blade96]

Interesting way to put it, Blade. I have been Agnostic since my mid-teens when my intelligence kicked a hole through the religious propoganda I'd been indoctrinated with and I've never looked back. Really, I should say I am an Atheist but the venomous tricksy part with religion is that is unproveable one way or the other due to an ever enduring lack of evidence.

a friend helped me realize that there is a difference between 'knowing' and'belief' even though you may not know, that's why i started defining myself as such.

Ken - It's how they make the huddled masses happy, by telling them suffering is good for them. Just like when mom used to tell you bitter medicine is good for you ... only in that case it was true.

I had to read this book for sociology course once called Halfbreed' by Maria Campbell and it was about growing up poor and suffering racism in Canadian society. its her auto. at one point she said when she was in high school her religious nut teacher said from the bible 'blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall inherit the kingsom of heaven' Maria took offense to that, as a poor teen and being halfbreed (they are kind of like Metis descended from white people and native) and she said "so we poor halfbreeds and Indians are to inherit the kingdom, but not til we're dead. Keep it!' Basically told her teacher to take her scripture and stick it way far up in a place where Sparky can't find it =]

and I agree about Pat Robertson. Might have raised lots of money to feed some haitians while at the same time blaming them for what happened, and no doubt using some of that money he gets to fund his crusades against communists, homosexuals, atheists, etc. to their detriment, ruining their lives. Not a character one should follow, imo.

 

[teekin]

Pat Roberson should IMHO have his house(s) leved by a tsunami and loose Everything to an Uninssurable Act of God. And then be told that suffering builds character.:barf:
In my case I don't regret my accident as it gave me an inner strength that I wouldn't give up for anything. It gave me courage and a deep faith in myself that I didn't have before. It also gave me compassion for those who are hurting and in pain.
lori