Study shows benefits of heel-down

[geezer]

You're right. On the bag, with the right hand my right heel starts off down but as hips rotate the heel raises as it pivots. My left heel stays down though.

Now with the left hook and jab, the right heel stays down but my left heel comes up.

Ahh. This makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Flying Crane]

i won’t comment on boxing or wing chun or any other methods.

With our method, definitely heel down gives more stability and power. That is how you push on the ground.

But our method derives primary power from torso rotation and not so much from driving the body forward. So methods and reasons may vary.

 

[drop bear]

OK. So I asked the boffins about this one.

"Using pushing force isn't the best measurement, many species have a survival advantage over their harder pushing competition due to superior agility

A lot of animals that seemingly have backward hinged knees like cats and kangaroos actually just have high ankles"

 

[Martial D]

Yes....heel down is what I was taught from Boxing coach 25 years ago.

Creates a stronger punching base. If your heel is coming up you are lunging or overextending and losing power.

I think kpm and yourself may be arguing past each other. I have found both to be true. You rarely to never want both heels down, but you also don't want both up either. In the first case your TOO rooted to get any real power, and in the second case you aren't rooted enough to get any real power.

At impact, one up, one down. Which is which and when depends on what style you are using. Again, this is just my training and experience talking, your milage might vary.

 

[KPM]

I never said or meant to imply that BOTH heels would be up at the same time. That would be kind of silly! No one does that!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I never said or meant to imply that BOTH heels would be up at the same time. That would be kind of silly! No one does that!

To do a "hip throw", you do need that.

Most of the throws will require "heel up".

 

[KPM]

True John! But we were talking about punching! But I did actually think of a punching example where both heels are off the ground....the "Superman Punch" in MMA!

 

[drop bear]

True John! But we were talking about punching! But I did actually think of a punching example where both heels are off the ground....the "Superman Punch" in MMA!

Lead right because of the forward step.

You hit a squat like a sprinter.

 

[Flying Crane]

You couldn't be more wrong from a biomechanical standpoint. Have you actually tried it on a heavy bag? You really think someone would punch harder with their rear heel on the ground than they would lifting their rear heel so they can better project their weight and momentum forward into the bag???

This depends on methodology. In our system, definitely the back heel is down as the foot is actively pushed down and back into the ground, which helps rotate the torso and is where we derive our power. We don’t tend to throw our weight forward into it, but when charging with our punch we still drive the rotation from the back foot.

Of course when moving forward you cannot prevent the heel from rising, as it is biologically impossible to walk in such a manner. But we do not deliberately lift the heel, especially when punching from a standstill, meaning we are not driving forward.

Our overall method dictates that the back heel down on the ground is more stable and derives better power. But that is based on our methodology as a whole.

Some other overall methodology may suggest otherwise. These are not an objective or absolute right or wrong issue that holds for every case. Like many things, it depends.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My initial thoughts were do you give up agility/mobility? As I’m learning WC, which uses a rooted stance, I find myself much slower and less agile as one would expect. Trade offs I guess.

Heel down doesn't give up agility/ mobility. However, it will require that you learn how to be agile and mobile differently. You also have to remember that heels down is not a permanent state. Sometimes you will be required to move with heels up based on your body position. Heels up is great for when you have to quickly move over a great distance. Heels down is faster and more mobile when you are withing punching and kicking range. For most punches and kicks you only need to move a few inches and having heels downs allows you to quickly move without giving up your root for long.

I think of it like this. Small dog quickness (heels down) vs greyhound speed (heels up). Or in human terms basketball quickness (heels down) vs American football quickness (heels up). Quickness within a short distance vs Quickness within a long distance. Wing Chun is close fighting so heels down.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Have you actually tried it on a heavy bag? You really think someone would punch harder with their rear heel on the ground than they would lifting their rear heel so they can better project their weight and momentum forward into the bag???

I've done it and I can punch harder with my rear heel on the ground than with my heel on the ground.

Tyson punched with heel down as well. He did both heel down and heel up punches But you can see him here punching with the heel down.

 

[KPM]

Are we watching the same video??? His heel sure doesn't seem to stay on the canvas to me! Seems like that rear heel is coming up with every punch. Sometimes it is off the ground completely! I don't think I saw an instance where his rear heel DIDN'T come off the canvas!

 

[CB Jones]

Are we watching the same video??? His heel sure doesn't seem to stay on the canvas to me! Seems like that rear heel is coming up with every punch. Sometimes it is off the ground completely! I don't think I saw an instance where his rear heel DIDN'T come off the canvas!

I think he is thinking in the same way i was......You throw the punch with your heel down and it comes up as your hips turn and pivot.....as opposed to starting the punch on your toes and ball of your feet.

 

[drop bear]

 

[Danny T]

Many power punchers throw the punch with the heel down. Often the heel will raise slightly with the follow through as the hips continue to turn.
In my Pekiti training the rear heel is down on punches.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think he is thinking in the same way i was......You throw the punch with your heel down and it comes up as your hips turn and pivot.....as opposed to starting the punch on your toes and ball of your feet.

Lots of people rotate the torso from the shoulders or from the hips and do not drive from the feet. This often results in the heel lifting.

Also, in the chaos of a fight, perfect technique will deteriorate and the heel may lift to some degree. Life ain’t perfect.

 

[Touch Of Death]

There are two ways of getting power, standing there, and on the run. Of course, the first is superior, but then you add momentum, and it starts to even out.

 

[KPM]

I think we need to clarify something here. From a biomechanical standpoint, when putting out force or impact power to the front the rear heel is may be either up or down. But the key factor is whether you are pushing with the heel of that foot or the ball of that foot. In classical Karate (and I will assume Michael's Crane style as well from what he has written) the heel is actively pressed into the ground as the punch is delivered for a solid connection between the ground and the target. The heel stays on the ground the whole time because the puncher is pressing into the ground WITH the heel. In contrast, in western boxing one is not pressing from the heel, but from the ball of foot to get the momentum of one's body weight behind the punch. The heel may start down, but its going to come up off the ground because the force is being produced by pressing the ball of the foot into the ground NOT by pressing the heel into the ground. This is exactly what we see Mike Tyson doing in the video above.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think we need to clarify something here. From a biomechanical standpoint, when putting out force or impact power to the front the rear heel is may be either up or down. But the key factor is whether you are pushing with the heel of that foot or the ball of that foot. In classical Karate (and I will assume Michael's Crane style as well from what he has written) the heel is actively pressed into the ground as the punch is delivered for a solid connection between the ground and the target. The heel stays on the ground the whole time because the puncher is pressing into the ground WITH the heel. In contrast, in western boxing one is not pressing from the heel, but from the ball of foot to get the momentum of one's body weight behind the punch. The heel may start down, but its going to come up off the ground because the force is being produced by pressing the ball of the foot into the ground NOT by pressing the heel into the ground. This is exactly what we see Mike Tyson doing in the video above.

Yep. Even when Tyson's heel is down, his weight is still on the ball of his foot.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think we need to clarify something here. From a biomechanical standpoint, when putting out force or impact power to the front the rear heel is may be either up or down. But the key factor is whether you are pushing with the heel of that foot or the ball of that foot. In classical Karate (and I will assume Michael's Crane style as well from what he has written) the heel is actively pressed into the ground as the punch is delivered for a solid connection between the ground and the target. The heel stays on the ground the whole time because the puncher is pressing into the ground WITH the heel. In contrast, in western boxing one is not pressing from the heel, but from the ball of foot to get the momentum of one's body weight behind the punch. The heel may start down, but its going to come up off the ground because the force is being produced by pressing the ball of the foot into the ground NOT by pressing the heel into the ground. This is exactly what we see Mike Tyson doing in the video above.

That may be. I dont know much about the deliberate practices and intentions found within boxing methods.