Heel up Heel Down and at which level.

[psi_radar]

I agree, with one caveat: I do think that hitting or moving with the rear heel up can be considered "the apex of proper motion" if you understand why you are doing that on that particular move. In other words, it can be "ideal" to have the rear heel up, if that is what you intend to do for the right reasons.

Derek

I think we're on the same page--I didn't mean to confuse "ideal" with "textbook." Ultimately the stances can and should be tailored by the person to create the optimal result.

 

[GAB]

Hi.
The idea, is that all moves require the body to respond a certain way.

It goes to where you want your weight, I have seen Katas where they show the heel up and they will call it the old monk or old man Kata?
Does this make sense? Do old people walk spryly?

As you are walking the step is an act of falling forward and gravity taking over until the next step intervens and keeps you upright.
In the military it is the heal that makes contact, heel down while riding a horse helps you stay in the saddle.

Is the heel up or down, we can go on and on, each Kata has a way of teaching and one Kata will teach one way and the other will teach a different idea, the reason for this is that each are for your information.

The time for it to be used, while moving or sparring or fighting is based on your training or instinct, after all we have been walking a long time.

Good teachers talk about training and how you revert in time of stress. I believe that is the main issue, when the time comes to use, if you have been trained or train alot, based on your observation, (gut felling) you will use the correct or your trained tech at the moment it is needed.

Forms, Katas, are the essence of the martial arts, if it is not in your tool kit, you need to go and get it. Talk to your teacher, read, discuss, ask questions, watch others when making the same move, is it fluid or stilted?

If a runner is on the balls of his feet while moving forward, when he stops running he walks with the heels for support, he is tired, if you need support you need the heel down, if not it can be up. You will see that in horses when they jump the heel takes the first contact.

Sliding the foot, trying not to move it off the ground, not far from always being there for support.
Moving quickly, the ball of the foot will be primary, if the muscle is there to help, if not, it is the heel and skeletal structure that does the job.

Last but not least, in the Yin and Yang thought process it is a way of combing the two that gets the job done.


Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Actually at a full run your hell strikes the ground first and then you roll through your foot. While a Horse may land heel first, it would seem that their knees are hinged in the opposite direction!

 

[psi_radar]

Horses have heels? :idunno:

 

[GAB]

I was reading some of SGM EP's quotes and found this one that I thought was very good for most of the discussions regarding practice vs real time need.

" While practice locks in our knowledge of Basics, instinct is what makes it free".

Based on the situation as you interpret it, with your knowledge and training, I believe the word that we use in Kosho is very appropriate. "Conceptualize, to conceive, in the mind, to think."

Heel up or down after learning the numerous forms that teach one way or another, then you have your pick like at a buffet for food, do you want
eggs or a steak, or both or neither?

Regards, Gary :asian:

 

[The Kai]

Heel up or down after learning the numerous forms that teach one way or another, then you have your pick like at a buffet for food, do you want
eggs or a steak, or both or neither?

And if you have a heart problem, perhaps a salad would be better. Of course there is no right or wrong - but there may be more apropriate ways.
Raising you hell even on a simple technoque like a reverse punch, changes the intention the angle, follow thru, etc..
The best way to figure out (heel raised or not) is on a Heavy bag or in sparring. As the 1st posted stated you don't need a bracing angle when chasing someone, but it is helpful when some one is charging you.
Sometimes as much as we would like to we can't have both ways
Todd

 

[GAB]

Hi Kai,

Are you saying we can't have or Kate and Edith too/also? :idunno:

Heel up and heel down, it will be one or the other, it might not always be right, but it could be wrong also, do I have it right? :whip:

Regards, Gary:asian:

 

[The Kai]

Sure it could be right or wrong, the key is to practice and train- not spout and repete someone else's phrases.

After all all roads may led to the top of the mountain, just make sure that you are climbing and not relying on someone else

Todd

 

[jaybacca72]

tell boxers that they don't have good basics with thier heel up! you can have your heel up and still establish a good base provided you don't break your posture and bend your knees ie high wide kneel stance.
later
jay
ps i have taught two groups of students differently for an experiment regarding this issue and the heel up group could and perform techniques much more effeciently from my observations but that's just me,heel down works to but i don't wait till black belt to show it , maybe purple. artyon:

 

[pete]

tell boxers that they don't have good basics with thier heel up!

hey jay, maybe boxers have good basics for boxing, but a little like comparing apples and grapefruits with kenpo. i mean, would you keep you elbows in and both fists up against a martial artist?

keeping the heel down in the forward bow will restrict your forward momentum, but provides the counter-balance necessary to defend, counter, or move laterally. if all your momentum is moving forward with the punch, while it may be more powerful, the interception of that punch could result in you getting pulled off balance and thrown down... kinda helping him do Leap of Death to you.

the close kneel stance lifts the rear heel up, but in bringing the knee down to a hands width from the ground, the shin is becomes virtually parallel to the ground and provides the required stability, or root.

pete

 

[Touch Of Death]

hey jay, maybe boxers have good basics for boxing, but a little like comparing apples and grapefruits with kenpo. i mean, would you keep you elbows in and both fists up against a martial artist?

keeping the heel down in the forward bow will restrict your forward momentum, but provides the counter-balance necessary to defend, counter, or move laterally. if all your momentum is moving forward with the punch, while it may be more powerful, the interception of that punch could result in you getting pulled off balance and thrown down... kinda helping him do Leap of Death to you.

the close kneel stance lifts the rear heel up, but in bringing the knee down to a hands width from the ground, the shin is becomes virtually parallel to the ground and provides the required stability, or root.

pete

Your absolutly right; all you weight gets thrown forward uncontrolably, but there is a time and a place for everything.
Sean

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

hey jay, maybe boxers have good basics for boxing, but a little like comparing apples and grapefruits with kenpo. i mean, would you keep you elbows in and both fists up against a martial artist?

keeping the heel down in the forward bow will restrict your forward momentum, but provides the counter-balance necessary to defend, counter, or move laterally. if all your momentum is moving forward with the punch, while it may be more powerful, the interception of that punch could result in you getting pulled off balance and thrown down... kinda helping him do Leap of Death to you.

the close kneel stance lifts the rear heel up, but in bringing the knee down to a hands width from the ground, the shin is becomes virtually parallel to the ground and provides the required stability, or root.

pete

The force grows even more with this one LOL. You're seeing things in a very good light Pete, and learning the contrasts of our art, keep it up big guy, it'll pay off.

DarK LorD

 

[tsunami]

One question. Have you ever hit a makiwara or have seen a picture of one being hit by a person with their heel up?

With all respect to prior posts. My undertanding is this. A forward bow has the heel down. If it does not, it is not a forward bow. If you do freesyle B1a, you strike high with a forward bow. If you do B1b you do an uppercut to the ribs but due to the range of the uppercut, you have to rotate the hips and lift the heel. This is only proper motion but is still not a forward bow.

A neutral bow is also heels down. However the system's working stance is the modified neutral bow with a lifted rear heel. You have to lift the heel to execute a push-drag or shuffle. Most "framed up" starting techs also start in this dynamic stance. (atleast that is how we do it)

Likewise a rear neutral bow is heel down.

I point this out because although Kenpo is a very dynamic and evolutionary art, the basics are or should be carved in stone. For the same reasons as written by a few others. If you want to hit hard you must master stances and power priciples. To quote Mr. Planas, "Establish your base and don't loose it".

 

[distalero]

Interesting topic. Unless I missed it, no one brought up a very real consideration: slippery or uneven terrain. It happens; very little of the rest of the world is covered in tatami mats. Would "heel down" be appropriate more often, or as a substitue for the "heel up" you'd ordinarily use, or would heel up be more appropriate. Hmmm.