Study Groups

[skribs]

I'd like to see documentation for this claim.

That's funny. I was going to ask if you had any advice on a book or training manual that showed the shallower stances at the start of the KKW forms. At the very least, I know they had the palgwes for a few years, and those use longer stances.

Both schools I've trained at prefer the deeper stances, and for the practical applications we've been taught, the deeper stances make more sense. I've trained at two different KKW-affiliated schools, and both schools prefer the deeper stances, and have a lot of extra forms and training from what the KKW requires in order to train that style.

Other random question - what are the Yujanda forms?

Oh, certainly. Our MDK school uses the longer, wider stances even though we know they're not what the KKW wants. Because we're not doing it for the KKW. For that matter, since this has become about Koryo in particular, I'll say that we've also changed the kiap so that its done on the low arc hand strike, rather than on the last high arc hand.

At our school, we do have two variants of each of the black belt forms. The official version, and then what we call "Koryo Il Jang" and "Keumgang Il Jang", which are supposedly older versions of the form. In our Il Jang, the kiyhap is on the low arc strike.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's funny. I was going to ask if you had any advice on a book or training manual that showed the shallower stances at the start of the KKW forms. At the very least, I know they had the palgwes for a few years, and those use longer stances.

There are KKW-released copies of the KKW forms on YouTube. I like the ones by Kyu Hyung Lee. As former KKW president and long time leader of the KKW demo team, I think it's safe to say he demonstrates the forms to the KKW standard. Watch the stance changes. In the KKW standard, changing from a front stance to back requires a balance shift and rotating the rear foot. In the MDK (and no doubt other systems that use the longer, deeper stances) you rotate the rear foot, shift it's position, and then shift your weight.

Other random question - what are the Yujanda forms?

Yudanja is anyone with a Dan rank. So the forms learned by black belts; koryo, keumgang, taebaek, etc.

At our school, we do have two variants of each of the black belt forms. The official version, and then what we call "Koryo Il Jang" and "Keumgang Il Jang", which are supposedly older versions of the form. In our Il Jang, the kiyhap is on the low arc strike.

I'm not sure how to interpret this.
If by "official" you mean "the form as the KKW wants it done" then it's not possible for you to be doing "older" versions of the forms. Other than Koryo, they're all done (at least theoretically) the same as they have been done since their development.
If by "official" you mean "our schools way", then the original, unchanged forms would be older. But if that is the case, the kiap in Koryo should be on the final high arc hand.

 

[skribs]

There are KKW-released copies of the KKW forms on YouTube. I like the ones by Kyu Hyung Lee. As former KKW president and long time leader of the KKW demo team, I think it's safe to say he demonstrates the forms to the KKW standard. Watch the stance changes. In the KKW standard, changing from a front stance to back requires a balance shift and rotating the rear foot. In the MDK (and no doubt other systems that use the longer, deeper stances) you rotate the rear foot, shift it's position, and then shift your weight.

But I don't have a frame of reference for when those videos were shot. Big difference if it's from 2009 than if it's from 1970.

Yudanja is anyone with a Dan rank. So the forms learned by black belts; koryo, keumgang, taebaek, etc.

Ah, I was wondering if there was a collective name for those.

I'm not sure how to interpret this.
If by "official" you mean "the form as the KKW wants it done" then it's not possible for you to be doing "older" versions of the forms. Other than Koryo, they're all done (at least theoretically) the same as they have been done since their development.
If by "official" you mean "our schools way", then the original, unchanged forms would be older. But if that is the case, the kiap in Koryo should be on the final high arc hand.

The official one is the way the KKW wants it done. The older way is a more traditional version of the form. I've heard from plenty of people and seen plenty of videos that reference older versions of the form Koryo. Now, ours shares about 50% in common with the KKW version. In order for someone to have learned the KKW form, and "mess up" or "do it wrong" to get to what we do, they would have had to really mess up. For example, the part where you do chops and down blocks going back, for us has a ton of different techniques that resemble some of the Karate kata I've seen, and look like our advanced Palgwe forms (i.e. 6-8).

The same can be said for some of the "older Koryo" videos I've seen. They are so far removed from the KKW Koryo, they're basically a different form. It would be like comparing Taebaek to Pyongwon, in terms of how similar they are. You don't get taught Taebaek, and then make a mistake and end up with Pyongwon.

Now, part of it may be the name. "Koryo" isn't an uncommon name in forms, from what I find. There's even Karate Kata named Koryo. This may be where some of the confusion comes from.

 

[Dirty Dog]

But I don't have a frame of reference for when those videos were shot. Big difference if it's from 2009 than if it's from 1970.

Well, no, not really. According to the KKW, the official standard has not changed. But the ones led by GM Lee are pretty recent, and are certainly a good match for the KKW standard.

Ah, I was wondering if there was a collective name for those.

There are so many jokes to be made about "what do you call a group of black belts"...

The official one is the way the KKW wants it done.

Then what you're describing as "older" cannot actually be older. With the possible exception of Koryo.

Now, ours shares about 50% in common with the KKW version.

Then it's not the original KKW Koryo. That form doesn't remotely resemble Koryo as it is taught today. For one thing, it is done in a single line. Like Pyongwon, but front to back instead of side to side.

So the forms you're being told are "older" are not. I suspect they were changed by your Master (or someone in that lineage). Which is fine. It's their system. They can change whatever they want.
But if your "official" forms are the KKW yudanja forms, then it is simply not possible for your local versions to be older.

 

[skribs]

Well, no, not really. According to the KKW, the official standard has not changed. But the ones led by GM Lee are pretty recent, and are certainly a good match for the KKW standard.



There are so many jokes to be made about "what do you call a group of black belts"...



Then what you're describing as "older" cannot actually be older. With the possible exception of Koryo.



Then it's not the original KKW Koryo. That form doesn't remotely resemble Koryo as it is taught today. For one thing, it is done in a single line. Like Pyongwon, but front to back instead of side to side.

So the forms you're being told are "older" are not. I suspect they were changed by your Master (or someone in that lineage). Which is fine. It's their system. They can change whatever they want.
But if your "official" forms are the KKW yudanja forms, then it is simply not possible for your local versions to be older.

Is it possible there was a form called Koryo before the KKW made theirs?

Most of the old TKD/TSD forms were just Karate kata rearranged.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Is it possible there was a form called Koryo before the KKW made theirs?

Most of the old TKD/TSD forms were just Karate kata rearranged.

I certainly can't prove there wasn't. It's not possible to prove a negative.
However, the various systems were primarily derived from Shotokan, with a smattering of judo and Kung Fu.
The names of the Shotokan kata did not include anything that could in any reasonable way be read as Koryo.
Nor keumgang. Nor taebaek. Nor pyongwon. Etc.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My study group consists of two, me and my dummy - always ready and never too tired to train !

But they never seem to contribute much to the discussion. And they just stand there and stare at you. Without eyes, which is creepy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But they never seem to contribute much to the discussion. And they just stand there and stare at you. Without eyes, which is creepy.

I agree with them being creepy. Disagree with them not contributing. Every time you feel something weird when you strike the dummy is them contributing. Not as much as a real person who can strike back and/or throw you, but it's at least something.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. But I have a hard time in a form with specific movements not being specific about a striking area. Ah the joys of the "31onderful flavors" TKD.
My OCD kicking in I suppose. No I am not really.

I have an issue with not having a target, as well (and I'm talking about forms I created). So I get the form position right (whatever that is in the context of that form) and figure out what situation would present a target right there. Then I imagine that position when I do the form. If an elbow (don't know the specific technique being discussed) from a horse stance seems low for a head, but feels right for attacking a target like a head, I imagine someone changing levels, slipping in low to be at the right position for that elbow. If that's not low enough, I imagine they're on their knees, perhaps having just received a blow to the head that didn't drop them completely. It doesn't have to be the result of the previous step in the form. If you think of those shooting galleries where targets just pop up and you shoot them (like the early scene in Men in Black), that's kind of how I imagine it: as I go through my form, someone materializes in just the place and position I need for that next technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’ve seen lots of people who were taught incorrectly and were told, “Oh, Kukkiwon keeps changing things.”




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Not talking TKD, but I've seen both sides of this in other arts.

I've had students say, "You never told me that" when I actually had, or it simply wasn't time yet for them to worry about that aspect. I've had training partners say, "sensei changed X technique - we're now supposed to do _____" and I had to say, "Yeah, it's always been that way."

I've also heard an old instructor of mine say folks don't understand their front roll, and keep doing it wrong, that it has always been over the shoulder, not the head. While that is the correct answer, he distinctly told me, when he taught me the front roll many years ago, "face straight toward your target, then roll over your head".

Sometimes things change. Sometimes we just didn't understand it at first.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree with them being creepy. Disagree with them not contributing. Every time you feel something weird when you strike the dummy is them contributing. Not as much as a real person who can strike back and/or throw you, but it's at least something.

I said they don't contribute to the discussion. They do contribute to the training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

But they never seem to contribute much to the discussion. And they just stand there and stare at you. Without eyes, which is creepy.

Just put dark sunglasses on it...problem solved

Just found this and had to share, it is at least slightly relevant

 

[skribs]

I certainly can't prove there wasn't. It's not possible to prove a negative.
However, the various systems were primarily derived from Shotokan, with a smattering of judo and Kung Fu.
The names of the Shotokan kata did not include anything that could in any reasonable way be read as Koryo.
Nor keumgang. Nor taebaek. Nor pyongwon. Etc.

I'm just saying, I can find forms online named "Koryo" that are not the KKW Koryo.

 

[dvcochran]

I'd like to see documentation for this claim. Prior to the unification, the various kwan all taught their own system with their own forms. Since these systems were derived from Shotokan, they were mostly taught using the pinan forms. Those forms were Okinawan-originated. None of the Korean form sets (palgwae, taegeuk, etc) existed until after the unification.
The Palgwae and Yudanja forms were introduced in 1969 (if memory serves - the late-60's at any rate). Koryo was different, and was replaced by the current version 3-4 years later. I believe these were the only two versions of Koryo. Neither existed prior to the unification. Like the palgwae and taegeuk poomsae, the yudanja forms were designed by a committee. It wouldn't be correct to say they were developed by the Kukkiwon, since the KKW didn't exist yet. It would be more accurate to say they were developed by the same people who eventually formed the KKW.

Semantics.

 

[dvcochran]

Is it possible there was a form called Koryo before the KKW made theirs?

Most of the old TKD/TSD forms were just Karate kata rearranged.

Yes, and yes. The Koryo form Dog mentioned which is done I a straight line is an older version. Likely Okinawan in origin.

 

[dvcochran]

Is it possible there was a form called Koryo before the KKW made theirs?

Most of the old TKD/TSD forms were just Karate kata rearranged.

Yes, and yes. The Koryo form Dog mentioned which is done I a straight line is an older version. Likely Okinawan in origin.

 

[Dirty Dog]

But they never seem to contribute much to the discussion. And they just stand there and stare at you. Without eyes, which is creepy.

Put big googly eyes on it. Because that would be less creepy, right?

I'm just saying, I can find forms online named "Koryo" that are not the KKW Koryo.

Sure. I can find things claiming to prove that the moon landing was faked, that Elvis is alive and well, and that there is a Secret Planet in our Solar System that will destroy us all someday.
So someone who doesn't study Korean arts has made up a kata and calls it Koryo. So what?

Yes, and yes. The Koryo form Dog mentioned which is done I a straight line is an older version. Likely Okinawan in origin.

No. Korean in origin.It's older than the current Koryo, but only by a few years.

 

[skribs]

Put big googly eyes on it. Because that would be less creepy, right?

I don't think I've ever disagreed with you more.

Sure. I can find things claiming to prove that the moon landing was faked, that Elvis is alive and well, and that there is a Secret Planet in our Solar System that will destroy us all someday.
So someone who doesn't study Korean arts has made up a kata and calls it Koryo. So what?

So, the KKW version of Koryo isn't the only version of Koryo. Even if there's only been one KKW version, that doesn't mean it's the only version of Koryo. If someone says "I learned Koryo different", that doesn't mean they learned it wrong. If someone says "I learned the KKW Koryo different", that's a different story.

No. Korean in origin.It's older than the current Koryo, but only by a few years.

So there was a different version of Koryo? I thought things didn't change? I'm losing track of what you're trying to say.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't think I've ever disagreed with you more.

Oh come on. Everybody loves googly eyes.

So there was a different version of Koryo? I thought things didn't change? I'm losing track of what you're trying to say.

Go back and re-read. The KTA developed the yudanja forms, then a couple years later replaced Koryo. This was covered earlier, with dates and everything...

 

[skribs]

Oh come on. Everybody loves googly eyes.



Go back and re-read. The KTA developed the yudanja forms, then a couple years later replaced Koryo. This was covered earlier, with dates and everything...

Sorry. The way the conversation evolved on Page 3 it sounded like you were saying there wasn't.