Striking, Sparring and CTE

[pdg]

If you can't handle it, then it's obviously is a higher level of training. The truth just hurts. You think MMA fighters can't go to your gym and memorize kata?

It's a different type of training, not necessarily "a higher level".

And there's also a difference between not being able to handle it and not having any interest in it.

I wouldn't expect an MMA fighter to have much interest in coming to do patterns (some might though), so they'll likely have trouble remembering them due to lack of interest.

I don't want to train MMA (that's the style btw, not the literal meaning of different arts), just like I don't want to work in an office again, and I don't want to go to the dentist.

Also, the level of intensity you put into your training is down to you, not the style. You can slack off in an MMA gym just as you can push yourself anywhere else. The coaches in an MMA gym won't force you to try harder, they'll probably encourage you but if that doesn't work they'll just keep taking your money until you quit.

 

[pdg]

Because your 1st ever, hard sparing session....EVER.... should give you at least a mild concussion and your head will ring all night and probably the next day too. This just tells me that you never even sparred hard and maybe not even at medium power.

Quite honestly, that's just stupid.

 

[Headhunter]

Quite honestly, that's just stupid.

Like I said I think he's sparred to much

 

[Headhunter]

This thread exposes a lot of people who claims to train really rough and tough or "the real thing" ....yet they're afraid of CTE? It's like playing full contact football but asking that nobody hits you. Because even if you train in some strip mall TKD joint, you can still get a concussion from a good kick to the head during average sparring, with those cheap Century headgear on. Even with my $100 headgear, I'm sure that a TKD BB can knock me out with 1 good kick.

Sparring can be light or even just touch sparring, but **** can go down and someone gets mad or thinks they got hit harder than what was agreed upon, and it turns into a war. I've been to Kung-Fu joints where there was def. head trauma sparring and it was light to medium power.

So I just wonder where you experts are training where nobody hits you in the head, even mildly (that will result in that CTE down the road). Because your 1st ever, hard sparing session....EVER.... should give you at least a mild concussion and your head will ring all night and probably the next day too. This just tells me that you never even sparred hard and maybe not even at medium power.

Yeah enjoy your brain damage when you're an old man and when you're barely able to walk and talk think back on these comments if you can remember this far back.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Don't you find that when you put 2 people "on the same skill level" together, that that's usually when wars erupt? They are usually rivals (in a friendly way) at the gym. And most people also holds grudges which is just competitiveness.

Getting hit 35% of the time at 50% power to the head can still = a concussion.

When we spar we rarely go 50% power and 50% speed. That is too dangerous for trying to learn how to apply a technique that you have never used before.

Our punches at 40% are strong enough to daze someone. We play in the 20% - 35% range. If you can't prevent head shots at that speed. Then there is no way you can prevent the same punch at a higher speed and a higher power. The other factor for us is that I encourage students to attack what is open instead of always trying to hit the head.

If you spar with me and always guard your head then I won't punch your head. However if I see an opening then I will go for it. If you spar at 50% or higher then you'll need to block more than 20% of the headshots. Because those punches are landing harder and become more difficult to block.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Don't you find that when you put 2 people "on the same skill level" together, that that's usually when wars erupt? They are usually rivals (in a friendly way) at the gym. And most people also holds grudges which is just competitiveness.

Getting hit 35% of the time at 50% power to the head can still = a concussion.

Oh about the wars that errupt. When I see that things are getting too tense. I will tell my sparring partner to decrease the intensity. For me, I never unknowingly increase intensity. I always have to be mindful of it.

 

[TMA17]

I like the idea of sparring at about 50% max. You can still get a sense of timing and feel and not get banged up. Sure, sparring hard is going to toughen someone up real fast, but it comes with a price, one I'm not willing to pay.

MMA will always produce the best fighters. It's no contest they have it down to a science and the pressure testing, conditioning and training is second to none. These guys are being paid to take a beating.

 

[skribs]

I like the idea of sparring at about 50% max. You can still get a sense of timing and feel and not get banged up. Sure, sparring hard is going to toughen someone up real fast, but it comes with a price, one I'm not willing to pay.

I think it's better to vary it.

10% sometimes. Non-contact sometimes. 25%-50% sometimes.

But every once in a while you need a good fight.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Because your 1st ever, hard sparing session....EVER.... should give you at least a mild concussion and your head will ring all night and probably the next day too. This just tells me that you never even sparred hard and maybe not even at medium power.

Not a great idea even for those who aspire to be professional fighters. You only get so many concussions in your life before you get permanent brain damage. If you reach that limit during training it doesn't leave much for your time actually fighting in the ring or cage.

I'm not any kind of pro, but I have had a couple of fights in the ring. Lost by KO the first time, won by KO the second time. In neither case did my head ring all night. I've also trained and sparred with pro fighters and we weren't trying to give each other concussions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This thread exposes a lot of people who claims to train really rough and tough or "the real thing" ....yet they're afraid of CTE? It's like playing full contact football but asking that nobody hits you. Because even if you train in some strip mall TKD joint, you can still get a concussion from a good kick to the head during average sparring, with those cheap Century headgear on. Even with my $100 headgear, I'm sure that a TKD BB can knock me out with 1 good kick.

Sparring can be light or even just touch sparring, but **** can go down and someone gets mad or thinks they got hit harder than what was agreed upon, and it turns into a war. I've been to Kung-Fu joints where there was def. head trauma sparring and it was light to medium power.

So I just wonder where you experts are training where nobody hits you in the head, even mildly (that will result in that CTE down the road). Because your 1st ever, hard sparing session....EVER.... should give you at least a mild concussion and your head will ring all night and probably the next day too. This just tells me that you never even sparred hard and maybe not even at medium power.

You seem to be confusing the concept of concern over burgeoning understanding of brain injury with the inability to function and unwillingness to accept some risk. They are two different things. But you do that kind of a lot.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I assume you meant "if the student can't do this". Yes, I agree. You shouldn't just eat punches. But you should take a few light to medium hits so when you do take a hit you know how to.

One of the kids at my dojang didn't listen to me when I was coaching him in a tournament. He'd just gotten his black belt, and despite us saying "keep your hands up" in class since white belt, still was a bit lazy on it. The other kid got like 12 head shots on him in 1 round. They called the match after that round and didn't let it go into round 2 or 3, because of so many head hits.

So I definitely understand it's a balance.

Yes. I've been typing on a phone all week. Thanks for the correction. I agree with you that some hits are just needed do the student will know. At higher skill levels it's less of an issue because you are more likely to see "what could have been" and not make contact at all. I have a video that shows exactly this. He knew right away that he made a fatal mistake and acknowledge the reality of the danger he put himself in. There was no need for me to follow through and actually hit him.

 

[FriedRice]

Not a great idea even for those who aspire to be professional fighters. You only get so many concussions in your life before you get permanent brain damage. If you reach that limit during training it doesn't leave much for your time actually fighting in the ring or cage.

American Top Team, American Kickboxing Academy, Jackson-Winklejohn, Wild Card Boxing, Mayweather Boxing Club, etc....

All disagrees with you. How many World Champions have you trained, personally? How many World Champions have your gym trained?

Now on the other hand, I agree with you when it comes to what I'd subject myself to and what I'd subject my students to...in terms of such head trauma as apart of fight training.....but then again, I'm a nobody in the Fight Game....pretty much, just like yourself.

I'm not any kind of pro, but I have had a couple of fights in the ring. Lost by KO the first time, won by KO the second time. In neither case did my head ring all night.

Well I meant, in general. Everyone's different. And what kind of KO? Head KO or body KO?

I've also trained and sparred with pro fighters and we weren't trying to give each other concussions

Did I even say that sparring with Pro fighters, would equate to hard sparring for concussions at all times and every time? Since we're semi dropping names, I spar somewhat regularly with a top 20 UFC welterweight, and it's only hard to the body.....but this still doesn't prove anything.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think it's better to vary it.

10% sometimes. Non-contact sometimes. 25%-50% sometimes.

But every once in a while you need a good fight.

I agree sometimes you need a higher level of intensity just to see if you trust your techniques as much as you think you do. A higher intensity level will erase all doubts about what you think you can do.

 

[FriedRice]

When we spar we rarely go 50% power and 50% speed. That is too dangerous for trying to learn how to apply a technique that you have never used before.

Our punches at 40% are strong enough to daze someone. We play in the 20% - 35% range. If you can't prevent head shots at that speed. Then there is no way you can prevent the same punch at a higher speed and a higher power. The other factor for us is that I encourage students to attack what is open instead of always trying to hit the head.

If you spar with me and always guard your head then I won't punch your head. However if I see an opening then I will go for it. If you spar at 50% or higher then you'll need to block more than 20% of the headshots. Because those punches are landing harder and become more difficult to block.

Interesting. Not to brag or anything, but I can go 70-100% speed....esp. with jabs, at a 10 year old's face and make contact with just a touch, when sparring. Ok, that was bragging....or maybe I'm just not that fast. Haven't knocked anyone out yet in the past 5 years.

 

[FriedRice]

Yeah enjoy your brain damage when you're an old man and when you're barely able to walk and talk think back on these comments if you can remember this far back.

Yeah I get it, you're afraid of being hit in the face for real as apart of training. Krav Maga is the right place for you.

 

[FriedRice]

Quite honestly, that's just stupid.

^^^ Exhibit A

 

[FriedRice]

It's a different type of training, not necessarily "a higher level".

And there's also a difference between not being able to handle it and not having any interest in it.

I wouldn't expect an MMA fighter to have much interest in coming to do patterns (some might though), so they'll likely have trouble remembering them due to lack of interest.

I don't want to train MMA (that's the style btw, not the literal meaning of different arts), just like I don't want to work in an office again, and I don't want to go to the dentist.

Also, the level of intensity you put into your training is down to you, not the style. You can slack off in an MMA gym just as you can push yourself anywhere else. The coaches in an MMA gym won't force you to try harder, they'll probably encourage you but if that doesn't work they'll just keep taking your money until you quit.

Don't want to, does not = not able to or not afraid to.

While being afraid of getting hit in the face hard = not being able to due to fear.

Therefore, a higher level of training, MMA, which you fear. While I don't fear kata, I just didn't care to waste more of my time with it. And yes, I've been through kata/forms in TKD and also Shaolin Kung-Fu ( a little), but you've never sparred hard for KO's as apart of training on a regular basis, due ot fear.

 

[FriedRice]

I like the idea of sparring at about 50% max. You can still get a sense of timing and feel and not get banged up. Sure, sparring hard is going to toughen someone up real fast, but it comes with a price, one I'm not willing to pay.

MMA will always produce the best fighters. It's no contest they have it down to a science and the pressure testing, conditioning and training is second to none. These guys are being paid to take a beating.

I usually spar at 20-50% power. Against beginners, I tell them to go at 100% and try to KO me while I'll stay at touch sparring only (1-2% power). That's how I stay sharp.

But once in a while I do want to go hard and hurt someone.

 

[FriedRice]

I agree sometimes you need a higher level of intensity just to see if you trust your techniques as much as you think you do. A higher intensity level will erase all doubts about what you think you can do.

Do you mean higher intensity, with the matching of power? Like going from 35% power & speed to 70-80% power & speed?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

American Top Team, American Kickboxing Academy, Jackson-Winklejohn, Wild Card Boxing, Mayweather Boxing Club, etc....

All disagrees with you.

Do you have some links backing up the idea that all these gyms are in favor of concussions during training or giving beginners serious concussions during their first sparring session?

I know the Miletich gym was notorious for treating sparring sessions like real fights and having fighters get concussed regularly during training. I wonder if they still stick to that approach. Personally I'm more in favor of John Kavanagh's approach: "Upgrade the software without damaging the hardware." I think his fighters have shown that to be at least as effective an approach as the alternative.

And what kind of KO? Head KO or body KO?

Head KO (both the one I received and the one I delivered.)

Did I even say that sparring with Pro fighters, would equate to hard sparring for concussions at all times and every time?

Nope, but the implication seemed to be that concussions should be at least a semi-regular aspect of training. Unless you were just advocating concussions for first timers, which seems more like hazing than productive training.