Striking 1 - 12 - Numerado

[loki09789]

Rich,

Your answer does give me a perspective on this, maybe not a definitive answer, but that seems to be the core of FMA - evolution and change.

I can see the 1/2,3/4 strikes to the temple and neck, as well as the 3/4 through the soft tissue gap of rib and hip being the older focus on blade and cutting.

The zoning is evident still, but the general targeting of floating rib would be logical as the change to a stick focus.

I don't know Shishir's other styles, but if he was an older PI student and not a USA student, GM RP may have still been teaching from the PI focus on the blade trad. when he began with GM RP.

I definitely agree that there is a conceptual and mechanical difference between 1/2 and 3/4 based on downward or flat delivery angle of attack.

Paul Martin

 

[arnisador]

We've had a good discussion previously about whether 1 and 2 are temple or shoulder shots, but I forget where it is! There were comments as above but also on the effects of armour (protects the head but has a crease at the neck-to-shoulder area).

 

[Cruentus]

Did anyone here go? I only ask because I know that you are in Buffalo, Paul M., so you might know if someone went.

I never heard a review, but if someone from MT went, maybe they might have some input. Did Shishir do 12 angles at the seminar, and if so, how'd he do them?

Maybe that would help to answer the question.

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by arnisador
We've had a good discussion previously about whether 1 and 2 are temple or shoulder shots, but I forget where it is! There were comments as above but also on the effects of armour (protects the head but has a crease at the neck-to-shoulder area).

I always saw the angles of attack as striking "angles" rather then targets. As Rich said, #1-2 are diagnal slashes, #3-4 are horizontal. The attack could be anywhere from the shoulder to the upper part of the head.

What your striking at with the angle depends on the situation and your tool. If I have a blade I'll aim for a soft target on a #1, the neck artery to be lethal, the trapezius to be non-lethal. If it is a stick, I aim for hard target; mainly temple, or is I want to aim lower, Jaw-line, or even lower, collarbone. If the guy had a helmet I'd obviously try to hit him not in the helmet even with a stick, such as the neck or collarbone. If I am solo baston sparring, I'll aim for the temple, but sometimes I'll aim lower like Jawline or even neck to prevent my opponent from slipping the attack. No matter where I strike exactly, though, these are all still angle #1.

Point it, for me the target is not as important...the situation will dictate that.

 

[arnisador]

I fully agree with you, PAUL--I meant to say, these were the basic reference points the Prof. used for teaching beginners that we were discussing. I was taught #1 and #2 in the basic numerada as shoulder shots, but others were taught them as head shots.

Incidentally, I don't ever remember the Prof. using the term 'numerada' for the 12 angles--did anyone else hear him say that?

 

[arnisandyz]

I think I have Datu Shishir on video doing the 12 angles. I'll try and make a small mpeg and post it so you guys can see it, but I think he also does 3 &4 as mid-level horizontals.

Andy

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by arnisador

Incidentally, I don't ever remember the Prof. using the term 'numerada' for the 12 angles--did anyone else hear him say that?

I didn't, but its all the same to me.

 

[Tapps]

Incidentally, I don't ever remember the Prof. using the term 'numerada' for the 12 angles--did anyone else hear him say that?

I remember him occasionally counting them in Tagolog but ... no.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I do not remember GM R Presas using the term. I used it since some of the other people I was discussing with used it. The Title of this thread was not meant to be an end all, only to help people who might be doing searches.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I do not remember GM R Presas using the term. I used it since some of the other people I was discussing with used it.

Yes, I've taken to using it to refer to our 12 angles because it's such a common term.

 

[arnisandyz]

Some systems use the term "abcederio" to refer to the practice of doing the numbered angles or practicing the "ABCs" reserving the term "numerado" to refer to a drill of feeding the angles. Its treated more like a drill, like sombrada. I think someone told me it means 'by the numbers" and not the actual numbered angles themselves. In the drill, one person freeflows (strikes, blocks or whatever as long as the stick is kept moving), then calls a number (in advanced stages it is random) which is fed within his movement. Or is fed in sequence 1-12. The idea is to get the person used to dealing with any angle from any position, thus eliminating the get ready and wait to be hit mentality.

Thanks

Andy

 

[arnisandyz]

I guess my point is... that if you are just practicing stroking the angles solo and say your doing "numerado", somebody that actually does do numerado in there system might look at you funny like your playing with an imaginary, invisible friend.

 

[arnisandyz]

Sorry to TRIPLE post!! but....

Some serrada systems indicate that they want you to feed another angle by moving there hands forward and back. Some people also call it "lock-and-block."

 

[loki09789]

Paul J.

It was at the Buffalo Seminar that I saw Datu SI do the 12 angles. He also did other MA standards (blocks, striking patterns...) but it was for mainly a new crowd of MA students, so it was very fundamental stuff.

He presented the 12 strikes conceptually as angles as well as using target references to break the body down into target zones as well. I was just curious if anyone knew how the striking pattern has evolved over time and if they recognized the targeting/zoning that I mentioned before. I know that Datu SI is originally a PI student of GM RP, but I don't know time frames and so on.

He moves like a fighter even when he is demonstrating so it was hard to see some of the little things the first time. His DVD collection of stunt and commercial/movie (Ninja Turtles - don't remember which turtle, mattel commercials, movies - don't remember the titles and an instructional tv series for Canadian production) samples was neat to see. Oh to have the willingness to live so hand to mouth for a dream.

Paul Martin

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by loki09789
Paul J.

It was at the Buffalo Seminar that I saw Datu SI do the 12 angles. He also did other MA standards (blocks, striking patterns...) but it was for mainly a new crowd of MA students, so it was very fundamental stuff.

He presented the 12 strikes conceptually as angles as well as using target references to break the body down into target zones as well. I was just curious if anyone knew how the striking pattern has evolved over time and if they recognized the targeting/zoning that I mentioned before. I know that Datu SI is originally a PI student of GM RP, but I don't know time frames and so on.

He moves like a fighter even when he is demonstrating so it was hard to see some of the little things the first time. His DVD collection of stunt and commercial/movie (Ninja Turtles - don't remember which turtle, mattel commercials, movies - don't remember the titles and an instructional tv series for Canadian production) samples was neat to see. Oh to have the willingness to live so hand to mouth for a dream.

Paul Martin

Ah...alright. I wonder about the angling too now. If I had to make an educated guess, I would say that Shishirs version was probably influenced more by other instructors in the PI, or his own innovation rather then Presas. Here is why I think that: My Balintawak 12 angles (developed prior to Modern Arnis as you know) are identical to Modern Arnis 12 angles, just with a couple of the numbers switched around. Now I don't believe RP got his fundamentals from Anciong (where my fundamentals come from, through Manong Ted of course), but I imagine that the Balintawak 12 angles he got from either Moncol or Timor were similar (if not identical) to Anciongs, thus lending to the developement of Modern Arnis 12 angles. I have got to imagine that that RP got the 12 angles from Balintawak because they are way too close for it to be coincidence.

So the RP 12 angles that were being taught to us predate Shishir, and even Remy himself. So, my hypothesis is that Shishir was influenced by someone else he has trained with, or that he made his own innovation.

I figured maybe he might of offered an alternative explaination or clue to someone who may have seen him recently, which was why I brought up the seminar.

btw. Since you did go, now I am more curious! Outside of 12 angle applications, what else did he focus on? It was 2 bad I missed it because I do want to at least see what he is doing.

PAUL

 

[Tapps]

"numerado" does seem self explanitory

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by Tapps
"numerado" does seem self explanitory

the tranlations seems self explanatory (numberado = numbers) but the usage can vary. Some systems refer to numerado as the practice of following the shape of a number - or drawing a number with the stick ("3" would be a redondo motion, or "7" would be a high horizontal followed by a diagonal for example). There is also "alphabito" - drawing the alphabet.

 

[arnisador]

I didn't realize how different the usages of this term were!

 

[Mark Lynn]

FWIW

GM Ernesto Presas (I'm pretty sure, I'd have to check my notes and reference material) at times shows defenses against high horizontal strikes to the upper part of the arm. I know in some of the drills (take his double stick feeding pattern) you have the diagonal strikes to the upper area and then you have the horizontal double stick strikes to the upper arm.

I mention this because GM Remy and Ernesto did train together and their systems do share some commonality between them. However GM Remy and GM Ernesto also show the horizontal strikes to the elbow floating rib area as well.

I would think that conceptually it is still basically a horizontal strike and the 1 and 2 being the diagonal strikes.

The strikes to the upper arm could also do damage to the opponent by either hacking into or cutting it with a blade or smashing into the muscle with a stick thereby taking the fight out of the person. Just a thought.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Wow I made green belt

Years ago Hock taught the twelve count pattern and we use to practice different types of strikes off of it. One of my favorite ones was using the stick in a two handed grip (as if holding a staff in thirds) and practicing the 12 angles striking that way. Over time now he has expanded this pattern to include 3 more strikes since he translated this to rifle/bayonet techniques. But I still like teaching my students the 12 count pattern when I start teaching the two handed grip techniques.

Also Bram Frank on one of his videos (conceptual stick?) I think showed the 6 and the 7 coming up from under the ribs at an angle (I believe since he concetrates on the blade work so much).

I thought both of these patterns were pretty good and inovative so to speak.

Mark