Street defense unarmed vs. knife (yikes!)

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Judo-kid

I pratice knife disarms and gun disarms at my judo /jijutsu place , Most schools give some techs. On how you should try to defend your self. Glade you made it out ok running is the best choice.

Be very careful about when you choose to run from a knife wielding attacker as the moment you turn your back you are faceless which removes any emotion from the situation. Your attackers predatory instints will kick in and it will make it all the easier for him to attack. This is one of the reasons military sentry kills are done from the rear (apart from the obvious). Just make sure there is plenty of space between you and your attacker and that you honestly believe you can out run them.

Just some thoughts

Cheers
Sammy

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Whatever empty hand stuff you practice for going against a knife...put it into sparring. Merely doing it in "pitch and catch" drills where an attacker feeds a strike and you do the disarm, etc. isn't enough. Its a start...but you have to spar it.

Sparring will test and sharpen your skills...and you'll learn that going against a knife barehanded is a crappy proposition. It isn't impossible...but it isn't preferable. More often than not you'll get chopped up by your partner's training blade.

I like what the Sayoc folks say..."I'M the one with the knife." Their response in the described situation would have involved pulling knives (plural) of their own. Or a gun.

We've heard the stories of guys who have done some pretty amazing things barehanded against the blade...but I bet in a lot of these situations the knife wielder wasn't committed, and intended to intimidate with the weapon, rather than kill. Then too the knife wielder might have had crappy skills, counting on the knife to make up for his lack of speed or strength, or for that matter sobriety...and the weapon failed him against the unarmed martial artist.

And I'll concede there are guys out there who are reeeally, really good...and can do well empty handed against a wide range of people armed with knives. I submit they are a rare breed.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Cthulhu]

We occasionally do sparring with aluminum training blades. Basically, we go until a vital or bleeder is hit. The few of us who do this are confident enough in each others' control to the point we don't usually wear protective equipment. For that reason, we won't stab/slash to the face.

Weird. Must be tired. Writing is very disjointed.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

I've found that not going to the face in training can be misleading. When you put on the face gear and allow that target, it seems to really change things, to me at least. The straight-in shot to the face, fencing-style, is hard to see and when it hits the faceplate it SMACKS.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisador
I've found that not going to the face in training can be misleading. When you put on the face gear and allow that target, it seems to really change things, to me at least. The straight-in shot to the face, fencing-style, is hard to see and when it hits the faceplate it SMACKS.

That may be, but our only head protection at the moment is hockey helmets, and a stab will go through the mask grill quite easily

Cthulhu

 

[hardheadjarhead]

There are many ways to run the sparring, here are some ideas:

1. Stop on a vital hit, as mentioned. Touche. This makes people sharper, and less careless. It does ingrain a pause upon contact, though.

2. Give the person receiving the vital hit a few seconds to counter so that you inculcate the "take him with you into the void" type of mentality. There is something to be said for this, as it counters the tendency to give up the ghost after receiving a solid hit. You can call something like "RED HIT! ONE...TWO...THREE...TIME! Red received a lethal strike and struck none in return."

3. Do like the SCA folks and have incapaciting shots, with the fighter switching the blade to the undamaged hand, fighting from his knee, not using the limb damaged, whatever. Some argue that this would never happen in reality. Experience shows otherwise, and it teaches one never to quit.

4. Continuous sparring, which also has the advantage of promoting the "never say die" attitude. All hits are scored or aknowledged, but without a pause in the action.

5. Alternating the above training, and giving the students the reasons for the different methods.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
There are many ways to run the sparring, here are some ideas:

3. Do like the SCA folks and have incapaciting shots, with the fighter switching the blade to the undamaged hand, fighting from his knee, not using the limb damaged, whatever. Some argue that this would never happen in reality. Experience shows otherwise, and it teaches one never to quit.

Regards,

Steve Scott

In a real conflict with multiple opponents I was able to parry the first two attackers, (* Always wanted a third hand *) the third one conencted in the face. He aimed for the nose (* Large target for me *) I moved what I could and he hit me in the right eye. The eye crossed. I knew if I went down I was done for and woudl most likely not get up again ever. So, I closed the right eye and continued with the fight.

Just one of my data points
:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

At Barnes and Noble they now have a book on Medal of Honor heroes that details their exploits. It looks like they list only the ones that lived...not the posthumous accounts.

One took a bullet right below the nose and went on to kill three men in a machine gun crew before losing consciousness. He was maimed, and lost the sight in his left eye. He lost his recollection of the incident as well.

I read an account of a guy who had his arm chopped off by a katana wielding officer in WWII...the guy shot the officer (I think) and then led a counter attack while wielding the katana. He kept fighting until he died of blood loss. I haven't been able to confirm this story, but I've heard others like it.

Point: One can fight while badly hurt. One must commit oneself to doing that...not commit oneself to GETTING hurt, but to keep going should that happen. Some people fold when they get little "owies".

Good story, Rich. Illustrates the point I was making. What happened after that?

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
. . .
Good story, Rich. Illustrates the point I was making. What happened after that?

Regards,

Steve Scott

It was not very glorious.

A little up front information. There were about twenty guys and five girls. The girls had the pitbulls and Dobermen on leashes. Most of the guys were just cheering. It looked to be an initiation for a few of them. Did, I tell you that all the guys had shaved heads and tattos of Swastika's et al and wearing BDU's and combat boots. As three of the guys were being psych'd up by a leader type, I check to see what the girls were going to do with the dogs. Oh By the way did I tell you, the place they were assulting was a young teen hang out for bands to play from 7:00 PM to 10:00 PM. Nice of them to avoid the real bars with real men in them. I was running the door down the alley and my Friend owned and operated the Teen Place. The three initiates and the leader, started slamming up agianst the two guys ot the door. I checked for the dogs. The guys went down. One then Two. I jumped in and stoped them from stomping them more than once or twice. Then they used the same tactics againts me. I was able to keep them at bay until I was up against the wall and was able to parry the first and trap, then the second punches as well and I was able to pass, and he grabbed. I was tied up. The leader type jumped over top as I was trynig to bash these two together. I saw it coming he hit me in the eye, as I kicked him in the grown. He went down, I was able to clear the other two, and then deal with the other, by passing and hitting. Then all three lunged for me again. I had moved away from the door and over by the downed guys to stop the free ones from kicking them. As all three lunged at me I stepped back to handle/absorb the weight. I stepped on one of the guys foot. I went down. Mind you I knew I was in trouble. I was in the door frame. The three stepped back and the leader jumped in to land on top of me. I absobed him with my feet and legs, I held him up with the left and kicked with the right into the ribs. The teens behind me were screaming get up. They finally cleared the downed guys. I knew I could not get up with out taking a hit or kick I knew I did not want to take. The guy jumped off me and tried to kick me with his steel toed shoes. I did heel kicks to check as many as I could and as I did this he jumped back on top of me. I held him at bay again with my legs. This continued for about two minutes. (* Long Fight, I never thought it would end *) When the last time he was on top of my legs, the crowd behind me started hitting him with brooms and pipes and microphone stands, what ever they could get their hands on. As I kicked him off me and he stepped back, I rolled back and kicked the door closed. I stood up, opened the door and then jumped outside. My Plan was to really hurt this guy. I was tired of him. Well they had run back to their vehicles, and started to leave. I guess at the same time I kicked him back an off duty cop had come around the side of the building from a bank. I then went and put ice on my eye. The whole time I only used one eye to fight/survive with.

The Real kicker, was I was covering the door for a friend while he went deer hunting. The next monday with an black and blue and yellow and purple, all closed up, I went to work. Not one of those engineers understood why I jumper in and did not run away to protect myself. I could not just stand there or run away while those guys (* Never did get their names *) on the ground were in Danger.

So nothing reall rambo, nothing real cool, nothing real flashy. I was just trying to stay alive and stop them from killing someone else.

I got paid a beer and a shirt and about $55 for the night. Somehow the pay for risk just not add up anymore

With Respect
:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

A beer, a t-shirt, $55.00 and a lot of experience...

Lucky the dogs weren't turned loose. Given the size of the crowd, though, they might have gone after the skinheads, too.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Karazenpo]

Arnisador, the quote by the knife expert you posted is great advice. I agree there is no real defense against a blade. However, this is how I handle it and I've posted this before. The Calibre Press (Dennis Anderson & Charles Remsberg) have been giving officer survival seminars since the 80's. They have also written books. Their technical advisor to edged weapons was Dan Inosanto. A film was also made called 'Surviving Edged Weapons'. Their staff put five years of research on police and civillians who have sirvived edged weapon attacks and they came to the conclusion that those that did survived by grabbing and securing the assailants knife weilding arm. They came up with an acronym for it called G.U.N.-Grab, Undo & Neutralize. No specific techgniques were given, just this concept. Since it was founded on documented survivals of real life siutations and are taught to law enforcement and military personnel I base my edged weapon program on this. Also, they state there is a 90 per cent or BETTER chance that you will be cut even in successful disarms. I have used this twice in my carreer in law enforcement successfully but the subjects were not skilled with the knife (although an unskilled assailant can easily do you in also!).

Respectfully Submitted.

 

[arnisador]

Basing it on things that have really worked makes a lot of sense to me. As someone else said, look at George Harrison--he was stabbed what, 5 times, and still disarmed his assailant? It can be done, and it isn't fancy.

I think Hock Hocheim gives similar advice, referring to it as "both hands on the wheel"--grab that arm and control it.

 

[IMAA]

Be prepared
quote: Originally posted by GouRonin

I like to carry 3 knives. One for me. The second for me in case I lose the first one, and a 3rd for a friend or to leave on the body.


Where have I head that before? I know that qoute.

Tony


Well once upon a time in a hotel room in Chicago Illinois thier was 2 talented FMA. One was named Dan Inosanto and one was named Chris Sayoc. They decided to go out for an evening on the town after doing a seminar. As Tuhon Sayoc was getting ready to go out, he was placing on his harness that displayed several knives. The other young man, named Guro Dan Inosanto began to chuckle and said, " why do you need all those knives?" Tuhon Replied. "Well in a city like chicago you never know what will happen. This knife is for me, This knife is for you, this knife is for the attacker and this knife is for the dead body"...

Haha Tony this is where I heard this saying at. I heard it thru a buddy of mine who, evidently picked it up at a Dan Inosanto or Sayoc Kali seminar. You know how they all stand around and B.S. afterwords...so Im sure this is where it came from....its amazing how things like this get around so quickly.

be well all

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Why would anyone want it to be public knowledge that they were carrying a "drop knife?" That could really come back and bite you in a criminal investigation/trial.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Guro_Jeff]

Originally posted by IMAA


Well once upon a time in a hotel room in Chicago Illinois thier was 2 talented FMA. One was named Dan Inosanto and one was named Chris Sayoc. They decided to go out for an evening on the town after doing a seminar. As Tuhon Sayoc was getting ready to go out, he was placing on his harness that displayed several knives. The other young man, named Guro Dan Inosanto began to chuckle and said, " why do you need all those knives?" Tuhon Replied. "Well in a city like chicago you never know what will happen. This knife is for me, This knife is for you, this knife is for the attacker and this knife is for the dead body"...

Haha Tony this is where I heard this saying at. I heard it thru a buddy of mine who, evidently picked it up at a Dan Inosanto or Sayoc Kali seminar. You know how they all stand around and B.S. afterwords...so Im sure this is where it came from....its amazing how things like this get around so quickly.

As in all things in life, tall tales and myths abound. One thing we need to be sure of are the quotes attributed to people.

For the record, Tuhon Chris has NEVER taught a public seminar in Chicago. And Tuhon Chris Sayoc would NEVER publically make a statement as that above.

The statement is slanderous, and while I know that no malice was intended, I ask that people please refrain from attributing quotes to the Sayoc crowd, unless they can verify their statements.

Thanks in advance, Guro Jeff of Sayoc Kali.

 

[IMAA]

It is true that it was not meant to be a Malice Attack on Tuhon Sayoc nor Titto Inosanto for I have the upmost respect for them, I appologize if it came off as such.....I know I meant to add that, the whole thing was heresay of course, but failed to apply that as it was too late to re-edit the message..... I honestly didn't want it to be taken or meant in that manner as a truthful statement. I should of easily refrained from even using names in this post. Again I appologize no harm intended. As I was just reading the post of the guy that mentioned that whole phrase and the next person asked where he had heard that before it kinda made me think of when I heard it and how it came about just between several of us standing around and someone started talking about that exact same topic, when you get all the ego's flying stuff tends to get messy.....of course this is how rumors come about....so I appologize once more for even carrying out such a remark it was in poor taste for me to add such a thing. ....if it can be errased please do so.

Again to all Sayoc and Inosanto members I appologize.

Have a great day...