Straight Lead

[Gruenewald]

The straight lead advocated by Bruce Lee is supposedly a more "scientific" approach than the traditional punch, deriving its strength from the "power line" of the wrist & arm (striking with the bottom three knuckles, which many other MAs consider to be the weakest knuckles and thus the least effective surface of the fist to strike with), and using the skeletal structure kind of like certain Wing Chun techniques.

I realize that there are entire books on the subject of this punch alone (which I've been looking into with great interest recently), but I'd like to hear the opinions of some people from here on the matter. The punch is indeed very difficult to develop when compared to the modern boxing jab or other traditional strikes, but why is it seldom ever seen outside of JKD if it truly is the most effective way to punch?

 

[dosk3n]

Both the jab and the WC straight punch work and neither are wrong. But since I practice WC I can only really comment on that. The straight punch feels a lot more alien to people compared to a jab which most people see as they grow up.

However it works for us. Using the bottom 3 knuckles lines up the bone structure with the wrist and forarm so its a straigh line. The fist being vertical instead of horizontal makes it easier to whip forward as your bones are usually aligned this way in real life. Drop your arms to the side of you and look at the position of your fist. It will be the same position as it would be if you were attemping a straight line punch. Also keeping your elbow in lets you push your whole body into it while if your elbow was out it would be weaker. Im not saying this is always the case but for WC it is and since Bruce had WC in his foundation Im assuming this is the case for JKD.

So wrapping it up basically the bones are aligned, the arm is stronger and lets your body support the punch.

There are a lot of books like you said and all worth a read.

 

[Xael]

The straight lead advocated by Bruce Lee is supposedly a more "scientific" approach than the traditional punch, deriving its strength from the "power line" of the wrist & arm (striking with the bottom three knuckles, which many other MAs consider to be the weakest knuckles and thus the least effective surface of the fist to strike with), and using the skeletal structure kind of like certain Wing Chun techniques.

I realize that there are entire books on the subject of this punch alone (which I've been looking into with great interest recently), but I'd like to hear the opinions of some people from here on the matter. The punch is indeed very difficult to develop when compared to the modern boxing jab or other traditional strikes, but why is it seldom ever seen outside of JKD if it truly is the most effective way to punch?

The punch was extremely easy for me to develop. In fact I would wager that is easier to develop than a traditional boxing jab. The straight lead is actually the natural way to punch, unlike boxing and karate which have you twist your arm as you extend. Furthermore I do not use the 3 bottom knuckles (for the most part) I actually hit with the top 3.

As far as usage goes.. When I do fight, I almost always use it. Fights are situational and one must never go into a fight thinking "I should do this, and then I should do that, especially when he/she does this..." Fighting should be free of thoughts like this to begin, otherwise we are missing the point of JKD. But that aside, I use the straight lead all the time in real situations. It hits extremely fast and hard. Sometimes the momentum from it stops the altercations from escalating. Other times it acts like a gateway and opens up opportunity for further techniques.

It is definitely a backbone of what I consider the nucleus for my JKD.

 

[Gruenewald]

The punch was extremely easy for me to develop. In fact I would wager that is easier to develop than a traditional boxing jab. The straight lead is actually the natural way to punch, unlike boxing and karate which have you twist your arm as you extend. Furthermore I do not use the 3 bottom knuckles (for the most part) I actually hit with the top 3.

As far as usage goes.. When I do fight, I almost always use it. Fights are situational and one must never go into a fight thinking "I should do this, and then I should do that, especially when he/she does this..." Fighting should be free of thoughts like this to begin, otherwise we are missing the point of JKD. But that aside, I use the straight lead all the time in real situations. It hits extremely fast and hard. Sometimes the momentum from it stops the altercations from escalating. Other times it acts like a gateway and opens up opportunity for further techniques.

It is definitely a backbone of what I consider the nucleus for my JKD.

That's interesting, I'd always heard that it was a particularly difficult technique to develop. I practiced boxing briefly (for a period of a few months) but was able to develop a very effective jab solely by repetition (couple hundred jabs a day) within a few weeks. I'm having a lot more difficulty with the straight, however. I find it more difficult to practice the punch on a heavy bag than the jab, and I don't have access to pads or a speed bag right now.

 

[Xael]

That's interesting, I'd always heard that it was a particularly difficult technique to develop. I practiced boxing briefly (for a period of a few months) but was able to develop a very effective jab solely by repetition (couple hundred jabs a day) within a few weeks. I'm having a lot more difficulty with the straight, however. I find it more difficult to practice the punch on a heavy bag than the jab, and I don't have access to pads or a speed bag right now.

Well I have not seen you do the punch so I can't really help you with it. I will say this, it comes from footwork. Do you have access to train with someone in JKD that is good? If not, do you have the Tao of JKD? I am going to assume you know how to relax when punching right?

The punch came natural to me, even though I had a background in boxing. I always had a distaste for the twist of the jab and developed my lead straight right away. I honed it under Joe Lewis actually. I saw a demonstration by Joe Lewis and it was at that point that I switched to JKD and the rest was history. However I still trained in various other arts like MT, FMA, Kenpo etc.
Just remember that posture is everything to do this punch correct. Footwork and relaxation as well.

This might help a little. I have deep respect for Joe, though I do not twist my arm I agree with a lot of what he says. He hits ridiculously hard. His sidekick is one of the most brutal I have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWtX1Xrk9hw&feature=related

 

[Thunder Foot]

I may be vastly misunderstanding punches here, but can someone please explain the difference between the straight lead and a stiff jab/power jab? Other than the vertical positioning of the fist?

From my experience in boxing both spectating and participating, there's no one way to throw a jab. Angles can cause jabs to be thrown in several ways. And in being taught the straight lead, I've always treated it like a stiff jab (having snappy penetrating power), which also is a major characteristic of the straight lead, from my observation.

Can anyone further clarify? Or am I scratching the surface of a semantical discussion?

 

[Shin71]

In my limited experience both are simply tools that you will either use or catagorize as optional and possible never touch again. I would say it is only hard to develop if you tell people it is, it is just another striking technique that requires practice to develop and make useful.

 

[punisher73]

Just thought I would throw this out there. The "modern" boxing jab with the twist came about later in the game with the bigger gloves. When it was bareknuckle and early days (Jack Dempsey) the jab was done with a vertical fist and landing on the bottom three knuckles.

If you look around on the web, you can download a copy of Dempsey's book where he goes into great detail on the punch and why it is thrown that way. He called his a "lead jolt" and was not meant as a flicky sport punch like we see most boxers using today.

 

[Thunder Foot]

Punisher,

Great point. Bruce seems to mirror a lot of the things in Dempsey's book. I'll take a moment to paste a few quotes...

"Contrary though it may seem, the left fist is more important for a right-handed fighter (not a southpaw) than is the right fist. That is true
because, in normal punching position, the left hand is closer than the right to an opponent's head or body. Since it is closer, the left is harder for
any opponent to avoid than the more distant right. If you can land solidly with a straight left or with a left hook, you'll generally knock your
opponent off balance, at least, and "set him up" for a pot-shot with your right"

"Let me repeat: If your punch is landed correctly, in power-line fashion, the three knuckles-pinky, second and middle-will share the pressure
and distribute it over the three hand-bones behind the knuckles. That lessens the chance of bruising or crushing any one knuckle, or of
fracturing any one hand-bone."

"Shoot your loose, half-opened left hand straight along the power line at a chin-high spot on the bag. But, as the relaxed left hand speeds toward the bag, suddenly close the hand with a convulsive, grabbing snap. Close it with such a terrific
grab that when the second knuckle of the upright fist smashes into the bag, the fist and the arm and the shoulder will be "frozen" steel-hard by
the terrific grabbing tension."

and

"THE POWER LINE RUNS FROM EITHER SHOULDER-STRAIGHT DOWN THE LENGTH OF THE ARM TO THE FIST KNUCKLE OF THE
LITTLE FINGER, when the fist is doubled. Remember: The power line ends in the fist knuckle of the little finger on either hand. Gaze upon your
"pinky" with new respect. You might call that pinky knuckle the exit of your power line- the muzzle of your cannon."

From just a few "semi-quick" quotes from Dempsey's book, we can see that Bruce's ideologies parallel those of Dempseys quite closely. I believe this is important to look at because its easy to mistakenly overlook the "sweet science" of boxing (i.e. the inner mechanics & ideologies) which contain many elements thought only to be within TMA or descending arts by some.

 

[Gruenewald]

Yeah, I've always understood that Bruce developed the straight lead based on Dempsey's teachings as well as the theory of Rafael Nadi's fencing (I don't have the book with the parallel quotes on me at the moment, maybe somebody else can cover me here). I think there was another guy as well.

 

[K831]

Two other differences that I have noticed, but didn't see mentioned;

1.) The "straight" lead isn't really linear, but has an elliptical curve or slight whipping motion that a standard boxers jab does not.

2.) When a boxer wants to put a little heat on his jab the hip rotation is initiated with the front foot, which will pivot similarly to how a boxer pivots for a lead hand hook. Most JKD guys and schools I have been in, drive the hip rotation and power off of the rear foot, with the rear heel turning towards the opponent when executing a straight lead. That is a difference in body mechanics that I have noticed.

 

[ElfTengu]

When our JKD club did a couple of evenings at a local boxing gym to work on the boxing aspect of our JKD, the local area boxing champion kept saying to me "Don't worry about putting power in the jab, it is only for scoring points".

I think this, together with the minute number of boxing matches that are ended by a jab, illustrates boxing's approach to lead punches/jabs, they are there to set up follow up attacks or create distance and in a sporting context to score points not dissimilar to karate semi-contact competion, which is not what we are interested in from a self defence point of view.

Of course a jab is not as strong as other punches, especially under pressure in an unscripted application, but although I would use it as a set up or distancing manoevure, I also want my jab to tell an opponent to back off and back down before they get really hurt, and if targetting the nose for example this can be very effective.

Wearing of gloves comes into it a lot too, and I would hope not many of you would risk hand injury in a real fight by firing off hard punches at hard targets like the skull, jaw, chin and teeth unless you are as accomplished as our founder.

I am new to this art, but come from a traditional Japanese martial arts background of the battlefield era (rather than relatively moden karate), and a lot of these old arts use a vertical fist which is called nio ken, so it was not difficult for me to adjust, even though the power delivery methods I am used to seem very different to WC or boxing. But at my current level the vertical fist seems to suit the classic WC or Jun Fan lead punch and a horizontal fist suits a boxing lead jab, and JKD practitioners are able to deliver either. Correct me if I'm wrong but choosing which of these punches to use will depend on the distance from the target. Lead punches and 1 / 3 inch power punches for short range, and a boxing jab for longer range or whilst moving into closer range.

There must also be a reason that boxers and MMAists do not favour the shorter snappy vertical punches nowadays, when as has been said, they were certainly the norm in the days of bare knuckle fighting. But this may be because bare knuckle fighters rarely targetted the head, probably to avoid injuring themselves, and instead fired off percussive attacks like WC chain punching but not along a strict centre line like WC. They were not looking for powerful headshots or benefitting from large amounts of padding and wrist support like today's boxers (who often injure themselves in streetfights without said support and padding).

A vertical fist also aligns more naturally with the arm's natural position, but twisting can be very powerful as can be seen by karate and Korean arts who specialise in breaking boards etc.

My JKD instructor prefers a boxing jab as the primary tool from the lead side, and says that when doing pad work it feels more powerful than a vertical fist, but also discourages using boxing power without the benefit of boxing gloves. Many Krav Maga practitioners have abandoned closed fist punches altogether in favour of palm strikes, which also feature in JKD and the other arts I practice, so perhaps these should be practiced more.

 

[K831]

the local area boxing champion kept saying to me "Don't worry about putting power in the jab, it is only for scoring points".

Wearing of gloves comes into it a lot too,

Many Krav Maga practitioners have abandoned closed fist punches altogether in favour of palm strikes, which also feature in JKD and the other arts I practice, so perhaps these should be practiced more.

I think each of those points is very key. I have knocked guys out with lead hand strikes, and they were big fellas. It's because Kenpo and FMA have shown me that you can hit much harder and more effectively with an open hand, elliptical strike. Something that is lost on all the MMA and boxing competition buddies I have.

 

[Xael]

When our JKD club did a couple of evenings at a local boxing gym to work on the boxing aspect of our JKD, the local area boxing champion kept saying to me "Don't worry about putting power in the jab, it is only for scoring points".

Area champ or not, that statement by him smacks of serious ignorance. The jab is definitely not about points. A good jabber will eat your face up so bad with cuts, not only that but keep you blinded and frustrated while opening the door for other things.

I cant believe he said that, what a tard.

I think this, together with the minute number of boxing matches that are ended by a jab, illustrates boxing's approach to lead punches/jabs, they are there to set up follow up attacks or create distance and in a sporting context to score points not dissimilar to karate semi-contact competion, which is not what we are interested in from a self defence point of view.

Again, you are missing the big picture here. A fight does not have to be "ended" by a jab for it to be used effectively to note it's worth and usefulness. Furthermore there is a huge difference between a boxing jab and a jkd straight lead. My JKD lead hits a hell of a lot harder and faster than a boxing jab.

There are plenty of boxers that had a mean *** jab that absolutely wrecked people.

Of course a jab is not as strong as other punches, especially under pressure in an unscripted application, but although I would use it as a set up or distancing manoevure, I also want my jab to tell an opponent to back off and back down before they get really hurt, and if targetting the nose for example this can be very effective.

You say jab, do you mean boxing jab or straight lead? I am getting the feeling they are synonymous to you. If I am wrong please correct me. My straight lead hits like a lightning strike. I have busted pallets, teeth, jaws, eye sockets, noses and split chins open with mine. While my hooks or other punches can hit harder, often I feel like a surgeon when using my lead.

Wearing of gloves comes into it a lot too, and I would hope not many of you would risk hand injury in a real fight by firing off hard punches at hard targets like the skull, jaw, chin and teeth unless you are as accomplished as our founder.

This depends on how serious you take yourself. I am old school in my approach to conditioning. I firmly believe every striker should work on calcifying their fists. After about a year of working on different materials, starting with sand or brick and ending with steel, your fist will feel like a steel bar. I kid you not.

My JKD instructor prefers a boxing jab as the primary tool from the lead side, and says that when doing pad work it feels more powerful than a vertical fist, but also discourages using boxing power without the benefit of boxing gloves. Many Krav Maga practitioners have abandoned closed fist punches altogether in favour of palm strikes, which also feature in JKD and the other arts I practice, so perhaps these should be practiced more.

Find someone that is a good puncher with the straight lead and have them teach it's principle to you. There are plenty out there who have not abandoned it in favor of the boxers jab. I used to use both, mostly to test what would work better. Honestly I cant justify the twist.. so much speed and power is lost. Not to mention the unnatural feel to it...

 

[ElfTengu]

Area champ or not, that statement by him smacks of serious ignorance. The jab is definitely not about points. A good jabber will eat your face up so bad with cuts, not only that but keep you blinded and frustrated while opening the door for other things.

I cant believe he said that, what a tard.

Well he is very good at what he does, and I should point out that he fights at the very light end of the weight categories where not so many faces get eaten up with cuts, and he boxes purely as a point scoring sport, not from a SD perspective, but I do take your points.

Again, you are missing the big picture here. A fight does not have to be "ended" by a jab for it to be used effectively to note it's worth and usefulness. Furthermore there is a huge difference between a boxing jab and a jkd straight lead. My JKD lead hits a hell of a lot harder and faster than a boxing jab.

I don't think I said it did, apologies if I gave that impression. As I have said, I am new to JKD and the club I belong to appears to be more concepts (affiliated to Bob Breen's) based and leans more towards the boxing punches than the WC punches although they feature to some degree. I look forward to training with folk such as yourself who have such a well developed JKD lead though, as I am obviously interested in getting the basics down.

There are plenty of boxers that had a mean *** jab that absolutely wrecked people.

Yes of course, but I don't think it could be argued that it is the norm in the majority of cases. Not in high profile matches anyhow.

You say jab, do you mean boxing jab or straight lead? I am getting the feeling they are synonymous to you. If I am wrong please correct me.

I thought I had posted enough to show that I am somewhat aware of the differences, but apologies if not. I am not new to forums or martial arts in general so I hope I am not being taken advantage of to be belittled as a newbie just because I am new to JKD, there are other parts of my post that I wouldn't mind feedback on, although I appreciate that some people like to pick at the bits they can argue with rather than say which bits might not be far wrong. But I'm sure this isn't the case here and that your intentions are well meant.

My straight lead hits like a lightning strike. I have busted pallets, teeth, jaws, eye sockets, noses and split chins open with mine. While my hooks or other punches can hit harder, often I feel like a surgeon when using my lead..

Well it sounds very impressive, I am interested to hear more about the circumstances in which all this damage to other combatants took place, was it in competitions, street fights etc, and were you wearing gloves or just using conditioned fists?

This depends on how serious you take yourself...

I try not to overdo it to be honest.

I am old school in my approach to conditioning. I firmly believe every striker should work on calcifying their fists. After about a year of working on different materials, starting with sand or brick and ending with steel, your fist will feel like a steel bar. I kid you not.

Are the reports of deformity and illness unfounded as regards to this kind of old school conditioning?

I am 40 and already feeling fairly arthritic in the fingers and wrists from over 2 decades of martial arts without engaging in too much of this kind of conditioning, so it's probably a bit late for me to start punching bricks.

Find someone that is a good puncher with the straight lead and have them teach it's principle to you. There are plenty out there who have not abandoned it in favor of the boxers jab. I used to use both, mostly to test what would work better. Honestly I cant justify the twist.. so much speed and power is lost. Not to mention the unnatural feel to it...

I will look into this further, thanks. To be honest everything about boxing and WC still feel unnatural to me, but the WC inspired lead punch does feel more natural than the boxing jab, and although I am told that I am hitting the pads hard, it doesn't 'feel' hard in a way that is satisfying to me in a kind of "phew that was good" kind of way, but perhaps this is normal, I don't know. Power is such a different concept in different arts and systems. Being hit with a battering ram is different to being hit with a 1 inch thick pole, some strikes are intended to me more like thrusting or to knock someone down, whereas others are penetrative and go 'through' the target etc, and I'm not sure how the jabs and leads of JKD fit into this.

 

[Xael]

I thought I had posted enough to show that I am somewhat aware of the differences, but apologies if not. I am not new to forums or martial arts in general so I hope I am not being taken advantage of to be belittled as a newbie just because I am new to JKD, there are other parts of my post that I wouldn't mind feedback on, although I appreciate that some people like to pick at the bits they can argue with rather than say which bits might not be far wrong. But I'm sure this isn't the case here and that your intentions are well meant.

I should have worded that better. I seriously need to start proofing my posts again.

Sorry if I sounded like I was speaking from condescension. I was not trying to belittle. Often times people speak flippantly over the straight lead and equate as jab. Even though you definitely spoke as if you did understand the difference, I guess after one of those paragraphs I was unsure on something. I do not even remember what that was at the moment (sorry exhausted).

Well it sounds very impressive, I am interested to hear more about the circumstances in which all this damage to other combatants took place, was it in competitions, street fights etc, and were you wearing gloves or just using conditioned fists?

They were all real life circumstances. I do not believe in the "sport" aspect of martial arts (no offense to anyone here), so if I do ever talk of something I did, it is almost always going to be a real life fight type encounter. I guess it is because I got into martial arts because I grew up surrounded by violence and I did not want to be a victim. I was not wearing gloves, just bare fisted.

Are the reports of deformity and illness unfounded as regards to this kind of old school conditioning?

I am 40 and already feeling fairly arthritic in the fingers and wrists from over 2 decades of martial arts without engaging in too much of this kind of conditioning, so it's probably a bit late for me to start punching bricks.

There are deformities in some cases. I have a friend that is doing it and his knuckles look monstrous. I always said I never wanted to be like him, but then he got mugged, or I should say it was attempted. He hit the guy in the face one time and splattered it. I mean this guy was gonna need reconstuction to his face. It looked like a bowl of mush where he got hit.

I am 34 and started to feel the age, not much though, only when I do not get enough sleep like currently. As for the brick, start slow. You can always start with a bucket of gravel.. you will cut your hands, you will tear some flesh here and there, but it heals, and comes back stronger. Soon you get leather skin over steel.

I will look into this further, thanks. To be honest everything about boxing and WC still feel unnatural to me, but the WC inspired lead punch does feel more natural than the boxing jab, and although I am told that I am hitting the pads hard, it doesn't 'feel' hard in a way that is satisfying to me in a kind of "phew that was good" kind of way, but perhaps this is normal, I don't know. Power is such a different concept in different arts and systems. Being hit with a battering ram is different to being hit with a 1 inch thick pole, some strikes are intended to me more like thrusting or to knock someone down, whereas others are penetrative and go 'through' the target etc, and I'm not sure how the jabs and leads of JKD fit into this.

honestly, I could not stand WC. It felt wrong in so many ways. I loved the concepts of trapping and cqc but everything else I just hated. The lead I do, it really does not feel WC inspired at all. I mean the knuckle part of the punch, whether you are using the bottom 3 or the top 3, that might but I definitely do not fire it off the center line.

My lead is definitely penetrative. I try to punch through the target everytime with as much blinding speed as I can harness. Combine this with the concept of energy that I have learned with people that are even better than I am.. it hits like artillery.

 

[Xael]

I just took a look at your profile, you train in Hatsumi's ninpo? That is really cool, they used to be quite an interesting group of individuals, though I have not heard anything about them since SKH was still part of the organization.

 

[ElfTengu]

I just took a look at your profile, you train in Hatsumi's ninpo? That is really cool, they used to be quite an interesting group of individuals, though I have not heard anything about them since SKH was still part of the organization.

They are still an interesting group of individuals, but not always in a good way.

The main problem, like many other arts, is that the people who are most likely to give Soke Hatsumi's art a bad name, are the people who get the most press, especially on the internet, and Soke himself has probably not helped with what is often seen as a ludicrous ranking system. I took 20 years to reach 1st Dan and waited 2 years more for 2nd dan, but have heard of people taking their girlfriends to Japan and their girlfriends being given a 1st dan after a fortnight's training, plus there are all the obvious comparisons with how hard it is just to get to black belt in Brasilian Jiu Jitsu, let alone have 14 more dan grades to go after that.

To keep it relevant to this thread and section however, I am finding a clear divide between the material that translates from taijutsu to JKD and all the completely new material which bewilders me. My locks and throws are probably already as good as they are ever going to get, and translate across well, but the striking and kicking are very different to traditional Japanese bujutsu apart from the predominance of a vertical fist punch. Also the use of escrima sticks is very different to using the Japanese hanbo 3-foot stick although the locking is similar when the distance has been closed.

I started JKD earlier this year because I work shifts (which is why I am writing at 4am local time) and miss a few taijutsu(ninpo) classes as a result, and the JKD class was new in town, and run by a 30-year serving police officer who knows what works on the street and has competed in various arts as well and it has given my overall martial arts training a new lease of life, even though I was not looking to 'cross train' in the usual sense.

Do PM me if you want to chat more without us comandeering this thread too much!