STOP THE TAKEDOWN! - Wing Chun / JKD / Tai Chi

[Tony Dismukes]

Keep in mind that a person in BJJ can be a whitebelt in Bjj for more than a couple of years. A white belt that has been training seriously can pose quite a challenge for those unaccustomed to grappling. In addition, a Bjj white belt is a far cry from an untrained person on the street, perhaps I could have specified "three stripe white belt" but I don't think all schools use the same system.

Yep. Being a BJJ brown belt I'm aware of this. I'm also aware that most BJJers are way better at the ground game than at takedowns. Most 3-stripe white belts are no better than mediocre at takedowns unless they have prior wrestling background.

Can you repost the video of iizzo training alive? I must have overlooked it.

Here you go. The guys do eventually get the takedown almost every time, although he would probably have a chance to land some strikes first. Still, the guys he's working with are significantly better with their takedown skills than most BJJ white or blue belts. I give Izzo credit for getting in there and testing his theories and I'd say he demonstrates good enough takedown defense for most street self-defense purposes. It's not good enough for a high-level MMA or grappling match, but it's better than I see from a lot of WC guys.

 

[drop bear]

Yep. Being a BJJ brown belt I'm aware of this. I'm also aware that most BJJers are way better at the ground game than at takedowns. Most 3-stripe white belts are no better than mediocre at takedowns unless they have prior wrestling background.



Here you go. The guys do eventually get the takedown almost every time, although he would probably have a chance to land some strikes first. Still, the guys he's working with are significantly better with their takedown skills than most BJJ white or blue belts. I give Izzo credit for getting in there and testing his theories and I'd say he demonstrates good enough takedown defense for most street self-defense purposes. It's not good enough for a high-level MMA or grappling match, but it's better than I see from a lot of WC guys.

Harps on a bit about not being allowed to hit.

 

[geezer]

Harps on a bit about not being allowed to hit.

As he should, since WC's defense requires offense. Two things I noticed. 1. He gave up that right leg a bit easily to the big guy, but then again the guy was fast, strong and had a huge reach advantage. 2. He restricted himself to pure defense.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if he mixed in a bit of offense --not just striking, but offensive grappling that used some WC concepts or energy. And it would be interesting to see how he'd handle himself if he let it continue down to the mat for a bit too.

Maybe he'd have to pad-up the wrestlers first (so he could add striking) and start-off with guys more or less in his own weight class. Also, he'd have to go way beyond the traditional concept of what WC is. I've seen some WC guys apply arm-drags, clinch throws, duck-unders and so on. Well maybe not orthodox WC guys. But Izzo has never worried about that garbage anyway. And in my lineage at least, the duck-under can be related to Biu Tze concepts.

Anyway love Izzo or hate him, you've got to admire his spirit. He really wants to evolve his WC and keep it real.

 

[yak sao]

I've seen some WC guys apply arm-drags, clinch throws, duck-unders and so on..... And in my lineage at least, the duck-under can be related to Biu Tze concepts.

And I see the arm drag as an application of sau jong and clinch throws as an application of the hacking elbows section of CK

 

[dlcox]

Yongchun Defense Against Double Leg Takedown:

This isn't the best example of the movement but will suffice. This is from Bao Hua Lian Yongchun, ?????Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Siu Lim Tao - YouTube at the 0:41 mark is a drop down to the Da Fan Che Shou (Big Chariot Hands) technique. Da Fan Che Shou is essentially Double Underhooks and the drop is a follow through to a technique commonly called a Rice Bale. How the technique works is once the underhooks are set, the opponents head will be under your armpit and behind your shoulder, you then push him back, set down and lean back creating a nasty neck crank. It's a slick technique but is contingent on one being able to set the underhooks without ending up on the ground first. It's kind of like a backwards/front facing full nelson. Sprawl is important in the success of pulling it off. If I'm not mistaken BJJ has a similar technique. I can't speak for other branches but it's a common application in Ruan family Youngchun. I'd classify it in the 50th% as far as pulling it off, not high percentage but not low. Overall a decent Yongchun Qinna technique.

 

[Mephisto]

Yep. Being a BJJ brown belt I'm aware of this. I'm also aware that most BJJers are way better at the ground game than at takedowns. Most 3-stripe white belts are no better than mediocre at takedowns unless they have prior wrestling background.



Here you go. The guys do eventually get the takedown almost every time, although he would probably have a chance to land some strikes first. Still, the guys he's working with are significantly better with their takedown skills than most BJJ white or blue belts. I give Izzo credit for getting in there and testing his theories and I'd say he demonstrates good enough takedown defense for most street self-defense purposes. It's not good enough for a high-level MMA or grappling match, but it's better than I see from a lot of WC guys.

thanks for the link. I'll give izzo some credit for getting in there. It looks like he was doing a lot of framing which seems pretty standard for Bjj but if he thinks it's wc, whatever. I think his wrestling comes in to play here more than wc. But, he's at least attempting to prove his theory against resisting opponents so I'll give him credit. He at least proves he can delay the takedown, I'm not sure could prevent it so much to negate the need for grappling experience but if his point is to show that wc gives you optioons I can see that. I think your average guy would probably do something similar trying to avoid a takedown. He might really demonstrate wc's effectiveness by getting some of his students without a wrestling background to also use the technique.

 

[Hanzou]

A quick comment on Bjj takedowns; The takedowns in beginner Gracie JJ tend to be the clinched based stuff like this;

[video]http://www.monkeysee.com/play/1099-beginning-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-takedowns[/video]

And they're based heavily on countering punches and kicks. By the time a Gjj exponent reaches 3rd stripe white, they should be fairly decent at those types of takedowns.

I don't see any videos about countering takedowns like that.

 

[drop bear]

As he should, since WC's defense requires offense. Two things I noticed. 1. He gave up that right leg a bit easily to the big guy, but then again the guy was fast, strong and had a huge reach advantage. 2. He restricted himself to pure defense.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if he mixed in a bit of offense --not just striking, but offensive grappling that used some WC concepts or energy. And it would be interesting to see how he'd handle himself if he let it continue down to the mat for a bit too.

Maybe he'd have to pad-up the wrestlers first (so he could add striking) and start-off with guys more or less in his own weight class. Also, he'd have to go way beyond the traditional concept of what WC is. I've seen some WC guys apply arm-drags, clinch throws, duck-unders and so on. Well maybe not orthodox WC guys. But Izzo has never worried about that garbage anyway. And in my lineage at least, the duck-under can be related to Biu Tze concepts.

Anyway love Izzo or hate him, you've got to admire his spirit. He really wants to evolve his WC and keep it real.

Yeah but then you would need to find a martial arts that combines striking and the takedowns. And a system of pads and gloves that could make that sort of test relatively safe.

You would have to have a mix of martial arts combined with some sort of sparring element

And I don't know where he would find that.

It is a cheesy excuse. And that is coming from someone who could very easily hide behind it.

 

[drop bear]

A quick comment on Bjj takedowns; The takedowns in beginner Gracie JJ tend to be the clinched based stuff like this;

[video]http://www.monkeysee.com/play/1099-beginning-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-takedowns[/video]

And they're based heavily on countering punches and kicks. By the time a Gjj exponent reaches 3rd stripe white, they should be fairly decent at those types of takedowns.

I don't see any videos about countering takedowns like that.

Stupidly enough that sort of takedown will only work against committed punches. Which wing chun don't do. The defence is tight frontward elbows and pitter patter punching.

 

[Hanzou]

Stupidly enough that sort of takedown will only work against committed punches. Which wing chun don't do. The defence is tight frontward elbows and pitter patter punching.

Keep in mind, I'm talking about takedowns that start with the clinch. You see the clinch in kickboxing and boxing because it neutralizes punches and elbows. If they get the clinch, there's a high chance they're getting the takedown.

Here's a better vid;

 

[LFJ]

@Hanzou; a few things to consider.

1. A VT punch is not going to be so easy to slip. The shoulders don't rotate, the elbow is down, and it's "uncommitted". Getting in, under, and around that is not as easy as it is against the kind of punch and stance in your first clip.

2. In boxing, people clinch when they get too close and are afraid to be hit or want to take a breather before the ref separates them again. It's part of the game and safe. In VT, we don't fight straight up the middle, and have methods of denying the clinch, keeping the opponent in our striking range.

3. Lastly, prior to entry we don't commit a lead leg, like many _ing _un and other MA systems. Not committing a lead leg keeps it out of range for MT style leg kicks or that shown in your second clip. It also gives us much better laterally mobility, giving us the ability to not fight in the straight line of momentum grapplers use to close the gap. Edit: It also means it takes another half step for their entry/takedown attempt. Committing a lead leg early puts it in danger and gives up a lot of mobility options.

 

[Hanzou]

@Hanzou; a few things to consider.

1. A VT punch is not going to be so easy to slip. The shoulders don't rotate, the elbow is down, and it's "uncommitted". Getting in, under, and around that is not as easy as it is against the kind of punch and stance in your first clip.

2. In boxing, people clinch when they get too close and are afraid to be hit or want to take a breather before the ref separates them again. It's part of the game and safe. In VT, we don't fight straight up the middle, and have methods of denying the clinch, keeping the opponent in our striking range.

3. Lastly, prior to entry we don't commit a lead leg, like many _ing _un and other MA systems. Not committing a lead leg keeps it out of range for MT style leg kicks or that shown in your second clip. It also gives us much better laterally mobility, giving us the ability to not fight in the straight line of momentum grapplers use to close the gap. Edit: It also means it takes another half step for their entry/takedown attempt. Committing a lead leg early puts it in danger and gives up a lot of mobility options.

Interesting breakdown. So do you feel that these strengths against the clinch is what contributes to Wing Chun's comparable weakness against leg-based takedowns?

Additionally, what's the general consensus of Wing Chun against Judo throws/takedowns? While they're fairly rare now, there's been a fairly large upswing in interest of no-gi Judo throws thanks to Rhonda Rousey in MMA. So its conceivable that in the near future, someone performing a no-gi throw from Judo could be a significant (and potentially deadly) threat.

 

[LFJ]

Interesting breakdown. So do you feel that these strengths against the clinch is what contributes to Wing Chun's comparable weakness against leg-based takedowns?

I think the third point I made also goes a long way against leg-based takedowns, since committing a lead leg puts it as a target half a step closer; easier to shoot on. It also makes lateral mobility more difficult than if one were to not commit a lead leg until entry, when we know which side to attack.

Many people get caught by their lead legs while attempting to flee directly backward in line with the momentum of the grappler because their committed stance restricts their footwork, and they simply can't outrun them when they suddenly shoot in. Combining elbows down and in with a neutral stance and evasive footwork, especially lateral, with a side sprawl when necessary, as I described in an early post, I think is a good VT strategy to avoid leg shoots. Of course nothing is ever 100%.

Additionally, what's the general consensus of Wing Chun against Judo throws/takedowns?

No idea about a general consensus. I don't agree with 90% of _ing _un in the world. But, Wang Zhipeng in Beijing is an example of someone who seems to combine Shuaijiao with his VT quite effectively. I've given my ideas on VT strategy in previous posts, but I don't think it's wise to stay with purely one style for the sake of purity or reinvent the wheel. If ultimately self-defense is your goal, it doesn't hurt to know at least some basic grappling and defense from their perspective.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting breakdown. So do you feel that these strengths against the clinch is what contributes to Wing Chun's comparable weakness against leg-based takedowns?

Additionally, what's the general consensus of Wing Chun against Judo throws/takedowns? While they're fairly rare now, there's been a fairly large upswing in interest of no-gi Judo throws thanks to Rhonda Rousey in MMA. So its conceivable that in the near future, someone performing a no-gi throw from Judo could be a significant (and potentially deadly) threat.

Effectively that is where I am going. The change levels will generally be the better option. Where if the other guy is throwing bombs you may find it easier to clinch.

Regardless grapplers should learn to strike. So they can open up more options to get that clinch. Maybe get those strikes a little more desperate.

Another factor that we have been playing with is gi,s doing some Kudo sparring. Clothing makes that clinch considerably easier as well.

 

[geezer]

Interesting breakdown. So do you feel that these strengths against the clinch is what contributes to Wing Chun's comparable weakness against leg-based takedowns?

WC's "weakness" against leg-based takedowns is simply a consequence of its relatively upright and narrow stance. Nothing is gained without giving up something. By preferring an upright and narrow structure WC sacrifices the greater protection of the legs provided by the wrestler's crouch. On the other hand, the wrestler in more vulnerable to getting punched in the head.

This doesn't mean I'd abandon the WC stance. But you need to recognise your vulnerabilitites. Then work on what you can do to remedy the problem. LFJ had good advice:

Combining elbows down and in with a neutral stance and evasive footwork, especially lateral, with a side sprawl when necessary, as I described in an early post, I think is a good VT strategy to avoid leg shoots. Of course nothing is ever 100%.

 

[Vajramusti]

WC's "weakness" against leg-based takedowns is simply a consequence of its relatively upright and narrow stance. Nothing is gained without giving up something. By preferring an upright and narrow structure WC sacrifices the greater protection of the legs provided by the wrestler's crouch. On the other hand, the wrestler in more vulnerable to getting punched in the head.

This doesn't mean I'd abandon the WC stance. But you need to recognise your vulnerabilitites. Then work on what you can do to remedy the problem. LFJ had good advice:

Combining elbows down and in with a neutral stance and evasive footwork, especially lateral, with a side sprawl when necessary, as I described in an early post, I think is a good VT strategy to avoid leg shoots. Of course nothing is ever 100%.

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REGULAR students in our lineage work regularly on structure and dynamics and practice against takedowns.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

There is only one Chinese word "摔(Shuai) - throw". That word came from 2 deer tries to use horn to flip the other to the ground.

The only concern that I have is "take down" may imply a "downward motion" while "throw" may imply both "downward motion" and "upward motion".

The term

- "throw" may imply that to "let the earth to do the punch for you".
- "takedown" doesn't imply that at all.

This is an "upward motion". Will you call this takedown?

Sorry but I really feel the need to clear this up.

Takedown means you both go down and end up on the ground, at least momentarily. You can put your opponent down in other ways, like trips, throws, kicks, punches, whatever, but if you take them down then you are going down too.

If I take anything anywhere, then by definition I'm going too.

So your clip was a throw, not a takedown.

HTH, and I'll leave you guys to get on with discussing the actual topic and I'll go back to reading it

 

[K-man]

Sorry but I really feel the need to clear this up.

Takedown means you both go down and end up on the ground, at least momentarily. You can put your opponent down in other ways, like trips, throws, kicks, punches, whatever, but if you take them down then you are going down too.

If I take anything anywhere, then by definition I'm going too.

So your clip was a throw, not a takedown.

HTH, and I'll leave you guys to get on with discussing the actual topic and I'll go back to reading it

Well that torpedoes my definition. What do you call it when I put a person on the ground with for example a wrist lock but remain upright myself? I haven't thrown him, I haven't tripped him but I have taken him to the ground, and I am still in control.
:asian:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sorry but I really feel the need to clear this up.

Takedown means you both go down and end up on the ground, at least momentarily. You can put your opponent down in other ways, like trips, throws, kicks, punches, whatever, but if you take them down then you are going down too.

If I take anything anywhere, then by definition I'm going too.

So your clip was a throw, not a takedown.

HTH, and I'll leave you guys to get on with discussing the actual topic and I'll go back to reading it

i think that definition may be unique to you. I've never heard anyone else use the term that way. I've always used "takedown" for any move which puts the other guy on the ground, whether it's a throw, trip, tackle, wrist lock, or whatever. I suppose it might seem more logical to refer to such a technique as a "putdown" except a) that term is already taken for something else and b) language isn't logical.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

Well that torpedoes my definition. What do you call it when I put a person on the ground with for example a wrist lock but remain upright myself? I haven't thrown him, I haven't tripped him but I have taken him to the ground, and I am still in control.
:asian:

You've manipulated him down.

Not quite as snappy as take down though, I'll agree.

But you still put him down rather than took him down so I'll stand by my initial statement.