kung fu fighter
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How do you stop a double leg take down?
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STOP THE TAKEDOWN! - Wing Chun / JKD / Tai Chi
- Thread starter kung fu fighter
- Start date
How do you stop a double leg take down?
How do you stop a double leg take down?
The
- conservative approach is to use "double under hooks" to prevent your opponent from coming any closer.
- aggressive approach is to use "撳(Qin) - downward pulling" to let your opponent to "kiss the ground".
The
- conservative approach is to use "double under hooks" to prevent your opponent from coming any closer.
- aggressive approach is to use "撳(Qin) - downward pulling" to let your opponent to "kiss the ground".
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drop bear
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Oh look at that same vid. And same advice from me.
Sprawl, cross face,over hook.
I disagree with the half sprawl by the way. Sprawl as much as you need to so you don't end up on your back. If he face dumps into the ground that will only benefit you. You are not Immobile there. You can circle or get up very easily.
Sprawl, cross face,over hook.
I disagree with the half sprawl by the way. Sprawl as much as you need to so you don't end up on your back. If he face dumps into the ground that will only benefit you. You are not Immobile there. You can circle or get up very easily.
Saw this video a while ago. I don't recall any of them discussing PREventative measures like distance management or mobility. They just start from the scenario of a guy down around their waist hugging their legs.
Grapplers learn to manage distance and timing to go from outside striking range, to inside for the shoot. It's important in the other role as a striker to also manage distance, timing, and have evasive footwork to avoid the opportunity of being shot on successfully in the first place. I think these things are of primary importance, before we get to what we would do if someone shoots on us.
That said, if it does happen, good VT structure with elbows down to prevent them getting under you along with a well-practiced side sprawl is a good, tried-and-true method; hips pressed forward, elbows in and down. In any case don't stand right in front of them and go straight back in line with their momentum. We learn this early in basic seung-ma | teui-ma drills.
Some of those guys tried staying face-on and using grappling-like ideas against their force. That's like a bullfighter playing the bull's game, rather than moving his ***!
Like grapplers have strategies for going from out of range into theirs, we have strategies for going from out of range into ours. One of our goals when we get into our range is to be turning our opponent, or letting them turn themselves as they try to recover and overshoot, as we unload a continual assault until the finish. In theory, this should make it difficult for them to counter effectively or go for a takedown, since they'll be busy trying to recover from being turned and off balance. But yeah, that takes skill and doesn't always work out as we'd hope. It'd be much trickier for the WC guys who have only a chain punching strategy (no strategy), or seek arms to stick to and over-trap (poor strategy).
This is a great post with some helpful solutions. Ideally, we should use distance management at all times. Anyone can go for a takedown so we have to always be aware of our space while we position and enter. If someone breaks your distance and rhythm to make it inside for the double-leg, sprawling with fence pressure is very effective.
This is more "theory" and "concepts" from the martial arts community that refuses to just go and learn a bit of grappling. These guys need to stop talking and get some Bjj white belts or 6 month wrestlers to come at them with a double leg. These guys are all pretty experienced so if their "concepts" are sound they should be able to stop a relatively inexperienced grappler from getting the take down. Once they can successfully stop newb grapplers they can attempt to move up the chain to more challenging grapplers. What we see in these videos are poor attempt at a double leg given in a compliant fashion, I'm sure there are hundreds of ways to stop a compliant attacker that doesn't know how to do a double leg but that doesn't make them effective. We don't see boxers making anti grappling videos or Muay thai fighters trying to anti grapple it seems these guys generally respect grapplers and go to them to learn how to stop takedowns, rather than to try to use a system based on striking that wasn't intended to stop a takedown for such a technique. Any system can simply range out and step back as the shoot comes, the problem is that a double leg doesn't come from five feet away, you likely won't have time to stop it, all you can do is learn to grapple and sprawl and do damage control to avoid the worst scenario. Yeah I know iizzo has a wrestling background, so why doesn't he just teach these guys to sprawl, he seems to ignore the fact that a wrestler who trains takedowns all day and is good at it will eventually take you down. Range is a luxury and it's very difficult to maintain with someone who knows how to take it from you. Even is close trapping range a takedown can happen very quickly you're that much closer to grappling range. Until these guys actually show video of them successfully preventing being taken down by someone who at least knows a little about a proper takedown their videos will remain pointless.
I think this is a rude put down. If you were to say get some high profile WC people together and go consult some of the top BJJ people, I could agree. (For all I know they may have already done that.) That way they may be able to develop top solutions for the situations they wish to counter. Preventing take downs against BJJ white belt is dumb idea, about as clever as saying they should just learn to grapple.
:asian:
Izzo actually has a wrestling background (I don't know why he only did the feeding for one demonstration instead of all of them) and has previously put up video of himself working with very skilled wrestlers.
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kung fu fighter
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I learnt "撳(Qin) - downward pulling" to let your opponent to "kiss the ground" during my tai chi days to stop the double leg take down, and it's good, but I was asking specificly about wing chun techniques and strategies.
I agree! One strategy that's embeddded into my WCK is I use saam gok ma to distroy the grappler's lower triangle to uproot his base.
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When you use WC Fu Shou to re-direct your opponent's face punch, you are using exactly the same principle as "撳(Qin) - downward pulling".
- borrow your opponent's incoming force (force A),
- add your own force (A + B > A),
- alter/redirect the direction of incoming force (change forward vector to forward-downward vector),
- lead your opponent into the emptiness (help your opponent to kiss the ground).
If your opponent wants to go low, you will help him to go even lower than he truly wants to.
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I have always believed that if you can beat up all
- kid in elementary school,
- young boys in junior high,
- adult boys in senior high,
you will develop some dependable MA skill. If you try with college students to start with, you may get beaten up badly, lose your confidence, and quit. IMO, it's better to start from easy and go into hard slowly. This way, your "take down resistance" ability can be developed slowly and that's a good thing.
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You can easily beat up the little kids and that can give you a false sense of security. If you start with the big kids (top grapplers) you might just learn something valuable.
:asian:
Can we please stop using terms like THE TAKEDOWN/THE GRAPPLER like they're these mystical ideas from another dimension?
I say this not only because it's annoying, but because the further you distance yourself from a certain set of techniques/create a distance between those techniques and you/the more foreign you make them/whatever words you want to use, the less accurate your perception of them, and the context in which they occur, will be and the less accurate of an idea you'll have against how to defend against them.
I know I'm not really contributing anything to the conversation here but I think I know enough to say that the idea that the only thing a grappler does to take you down is shoot in from fifty feet away is ludicrous.
I say this not only because it's annoying, but because the further you distance yourself from a certain set of techniques/create a distance between those techniques and you/the more foreign you make them/whatever words you want to use, the less accurate your perception of them, and the context in which they occur, will be and the less accurate of an idea you'll have against how to defend against them.
I know I'm not really contributing anything to the conversation here but I think I know enough to say that the idea that the only thing a grappler does to take you down is shoot in from fifty feet away is ludicrous.
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Preventing take downs against a white belt is a start, that's all I'm suggesting. Sitting around and theorizing doesn't mean anything if you don't test your theories. Do you really think these guys could avoid being taken down by a top level grappler? Sorry to upset the wc royal court but they are not beyond question. If anything anti grappling is disrespectful to all of the grappling arts as a whole. It's ridiculous to think you can learn one or two moves or "concepts" that can stop someone who devotes all of their training time to take downs. What would you think about a BJJ guy teaching how to out trap a wc guy in trapping range?
Yeah izzos wrestling and Leo background are the only things that gain him any credibility. Honestly I like his ideas, I'm just saying lets see some action and less talk. I really don't have anything against wc and think it has some fair points. I just don't like all the ant-grappling, anti-boxing, and anti this and that without evidence to prove what they propose has any credibility. It's the Internet and they can say what they want, but questions can't be stopped and should be considered.
I didn't say just to beat up 1 kid. I said to beat up the all elementary school kids. If you can step and crash 10,000 bugs on the ground, you may have developed something. I also didn't say just stop there. That's just a starting point but not an ending point.
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Which term do you suggest? We can use
- "throw" to replace "takedown".
- "wrestler" to replace "grappler".
You are right the throw (or takedown) is more than just "single leg" and "double legs". There are more than 60 different categories of throw and more than 400 different throws. Even the "single leg", there are more than 20 different ways to execute it.
