Stigma Against Women Who Wrestle

[Buka]

The question I have is.....are you still sporting the stache?

Unfortunately, yes. I say that because I'm a beard guy. But, alas, various jobs I've had, including at the present, do not allow beards. Sons-O-bitches!

 

[CB Jones]

Unfortunately, yes. I say that because I'm a beard guy. But, alas, various jobs I've had, including at the present, do not allow beards. Sons-O-bitches!

Awesome. I go back and forth between beard and goatee.

After a couple years My wife finally accepted that she married an extra from the Vikings.

 

[Tez3]

Awesome. I go back and forth between beard and goatee.

After a couple years My wife finally accepted that she married an extra from the Vikings.

You need beads in the beard then Runic Hair/Beard Rings

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you think men or women should decide whether 'tomboy' and 'girly girl' are wrong labels? I wouldn't say prejudices and biases are natural instincts but learned behaviours. I would say they are a problem even if not derogatory or spiteful.

In the UK we rarely use the word 'jocks' to describe male athletic types as Jocks to us are Scottish people male and female. We tend not to do the nerd/dork/motorheads thing either. Our 'labels' if you like are more individual to the person regardless of gender.

Labels are never correct, but that doesn't make them wrong. To call me a "martial artist" isn't incorrect, but it certainly misses the entire rest of what/who I am. The same goes for calling me a "consultant", "trainer", "professional speaker", or "High-I" (DISC behavior model). But all are effective descriptors of that facet of me.

Labels don't have to restrict anyone. They simply let us communicate something about the person. "Tomboy" is no more harmful than "long-haired" or "engineer", so long as it's not used in a hurtful way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm British not politically correct. I'm also not being offensive, I am asking people to think.
I am also a Rainbow, Brownie and Guide leader with responsibility for girls aged 5-14, and funnily enough they don't like being labelled 'tomboy' and especially don't like being called 'girly girls' they are what they are ...themselves. They want to be able to do what they enjoy doing without comments, is that too much to ask? they want to be seen as their unique selves, not pigeon holed into boxes. They want to be able to do things without comments that it's unusual for a girl. It's not politically correct to want girls to be able to go out and enjoy.
Think about it like this, as a bloke you enjoy knitting/sewing/ shopping, should you be called a 'janegirl' or similar? It's such an outdated way of thinking about things, old fashioned which is what our girls pointed out, times have moved on and changed, that's again nothing to do with political correctness ( perhaps you get more of that than we do) it's about treating people as individuals. We have female Prime Ministers, Presidents, Heads of State, fire chiefs, senior police officers and military, senior politicians and government ministers etc etc now yet you are still clinging to old fashioned views that put women in a box.
Girls Don’t Like Being Called Tomboys Anymore. Here’s Why… - Mpora

As for being offensive just because you don't like what someone says.....

Once upon a time, "tomboy" was an unusual thing for a girl to be called. These days, it accurately describes about half the women and girls I know - maybe more than half. Just because a term is used to describe someone, that doesn't mean they're being called something un-feminine (whatever that would actually mean). There are some labels that work across genders (though some of them didn't originally), like geek, nerd, punk, rocker, hipster, bookish, etc. And there are some that tend to apply to one gender or the other, like tomboy, macho, etc. I don't care what someone calls me - I care about why they call me that. If someone wants to call me a nerd, I'm okay with that if they say it because I am knowledgeable (a common usage among folks I know). If the call me that in an attempt to demean me, it won't ruffle my feathers, but I will probably like them a bit less for their intent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tez, maybe that is just a cultural difference. In America, most women don't mind being called a tom-boys or girlie-girls....many are proud to it.

Agreed. I know women who proudly claim each of those. I can think of two who proudly claim both.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I imagine it is sadly.
We teach girls that they are unique, that they don't have to fit any boxes, they can go climb a mountain wearing makeup if they want to, they can sit and knit wearing Doc Martin boots and ripped jeans if they wish, that in fact they don't have to fit into stereotypes which of course 'girly girl' and tomboy' are.
This is the UK campaign to get girls and women into sport, which of course the 'girly girl' appellation works against, one can't be a 'girly girl' and get sweaty and physical, that's what 'tomboys' do, they can't of course get dressed up and wear high heels. We have to teach young girls that they can be and do whatever they want without being labelled or mocked.
This girl can - This Girl Can

This Girl Can: campaign launches new ad – video

Again, you seem to be saying the labels limit them somehow. I know two women who will proudly claim to be both girly-girl and tomboy (not one each, both claiming both). They are precisely the kind of person you're talking about: they might hike with makeup and jewelry if that's what they're wearing when the opportunity presents. (Come to think of it, I'm the male version of that. I've hiked in a suit and tie, because I had one on and found out there was a waterfall a mile or two down a trail nearby.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have also taken psychology and you are misunderstanding the above. Of course she isn't doing it because she has been labelled as a girly girl by someone, she is doing it because she has been raised to be a girly girl which is what I meant. Young children are free from biased judgements, they don't see colour or even notice much about gender but this is changed by adults. 'Boys don't cry', 'girls don't fight', boys behave one way girls another according to many. The difficulties I have teaching females to fight is because they aren't brought up to be tough, boys are even if they don't want to be. Girls are expected by many to be nurturing not punching or kicking in martial arts, boys are expected by the same people to cultivate 'manly' pursuits hence when girls want to do the same as boys they are called 'tomboys' because they can't possibly be 'proper' girls can they? Girls are 'sugar and spice and all things nice' and boys, well you know the rhyme.
Fedor: Women shouldn’t fight. MMA is for men

That's an entirely different issue than using descriptive labels. In the US, tomboy isn't seen as a negative label by anyone I know. The cultural upbringing continues to be something of an issue (note that we don't have a decent descriptive word for a boy who likes to go out and climb trees, nor one I'm aware of for a boy who is clean and fastidious). Some of the labels came from that problem, but they don't necessarily continue the issue, once they are embraced with a different meaning and intent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Awesome. I go back and forth between beard and goatee.

After a couple years My wife finally accepted that she married an extra from the Vikings.

My wife has never known me without my beard. She has warned me that if I ever remove it, she won't recognize me, and I'll be in danger in my own house.

 

[CB Jones]

You need beads in the beard then Runic Hair/Beard Rings

How do you know I don't already have them.

I once braided my goatee only to find out that every time I opened my mouth it brought tears to me eyes due to it being braided too tight....total fail.


Labels don't bother me that much. Take me for example, I am totally fine labeled as eye candy.

 

[Tez3]

Again, you seem to be saying the labels limit them somehow. I know two women who will proudly claim to be both girly-girl and tomboy (not one each, both claiming both). They are precisely the kind of person you're talking about: they might hike with makeup and jewelry if that's what they're wearing when the opportunity presents. (Come to think of it, I'm the male version of that. I've hiked in a suit and tie, because I had one on and found out there was a waterfall a mile or two down a trail nearby.)

Why call them anything? Why not call them by their name and have done with it? The limiting is in the eye of the person calling them 'tomboys' and girly girls, ( the latter is very twee and somewhat cringeworthy) As I said it's old fashioned now to call girls these, it's luckily dying out. This thread is the first time I've heard it for a very long time. I think things are culturally different between us, more perhaps than we think. Call someone a girly girl here now and she'll look at you with pity for being a dinosaur, the Spice Girls are history, what we have now is Emma Watson, Malala, J K Rowling, Nicola Adams, Hope Powell and Caitlin Moran all strong women.

You can all think I'm wrong of course, but I work with hundreds of girls and young women, we talk and the old fashioned ideas of what girls should be, how they are described, how they are treated are different now. Do you really need to call girls tomboys and girlygirls? Or can you think of them as just being unique human beings?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why call them anything? Why not call them by their name and have done with it? The limiting is in the eye of the person calling them 'tomboys' and girly girls, ( the latter is very twee and somewhat cringeworthy) As I said it's old fashioned now to call girls these, it's luckily dying out. This thread is the first time I've heard it for a very long time. I think things are culturally different between us, more perhaps than we think. Call someone a girly girl here now and she'll look at you with pity for being a dinosaur, the Spice Girls are history, what we have now is Emma Watson, Malala, J K Rowling, Nicola Adams, Hope Powell and Caitlin Moran all strong women.

You can all think I'm wrong of course, but I work with hundreds of girls and young women, we talk and the old fashioned ideas of what girls should be, how they are described, how they are treated are different now. Do you really need to call girls tomboys and girlygirls? Or can you think of them as just being unique human beings?

We use words to describe people. If someone can't use any labels, they can only call me Gerry. When someone asks for a description, they'd have to stop there, because any description is a label. They can't say I'm a man, have brown hair, like to hike, or anything else, because all of those are labels. Or, they could call me an outdoorsy guy who's a bit of a clothes horse and has brown hair. None of that changes or controls who I am - it describes who I am...rather, part of who I am.

And I'll repeat that there are women I know who call themselves tomboy and/or girly-girl. In fact, I don't hear those terms used often by men - far more often by women, and mostly to describe themselves.

 

[JR 137]

My wife has never known me without my beard. She has warned me that if I ever remove it, she won't recognize me, and I'll be in danger in my own house.

I just shaved my goatee 2 months ago. I had it for 18 years and felt like a change was in order. When my wife met me for lunch that day, the only reason she recognized me was because I had our daughters with me. She'd never seen me without it.

I'm growing it back. I waited until summer break where I can go the 2 weeks or so without shaving.

 

[JR 137]

Typical Tomboy....

View attachment 20840

Looking at that picture, I'd say 80s porn star or cop. Since I knew you're a cop, I figure maybe both?

 

[CB Jones]

I just shaved my goatee 2 months ago.

 

[Tez3]

We use words to describe people. If someone can't use any labels, they can only call me Gerry. When someone asks for a description, they'd have to stop there, because any description is a label. They can't say I'm a man, have brown hair, like to hike, or anything else, because all of those are labels. Or, they could call me an outdoorsy guy who's a bit of a clothes horse and has brown hair. None of that changes or controls who I am - it describes who I am...rather, part of who I am.

And I'll repeat that there are women I know who call themselves tomboy and/or girly-girl. In fact, I don't hear those terms used often by men - far more often by women, and mostly to describe themselves.

Again though that is different from here and Europe, tomboy and girly girl are slang terms not adjectives. Here girly girl is just about synonymous with Essex girl which is not a compliment. This American site instruction girls how to be girly girls is actually pretty vomit inducing. How to Be Girly and More Feminine

 

[drop bear]

Once upon a time, "tomboy" was an unusual thing for a girl to be called. These days, it accurately describes about half the women and girls I know - maybe more than half. Just because a term is used to describe someone, that doesn't mean they're being called something un-feminine (whatever that would actually mean). There are some labels that work across genders (though some of them didn't originally), like geek, nerd, punk, rocker, hipster, bookish, etc. And there are some that tend to apply to one gender or the other, like tomboy, macho, etc. I don't care what someone calls me - I care about why they call me that. If someone wants to call me a nerd, I'm okay with that if they say it because I am knowledgeable (a common usage among folks I know). If the call me that in an attempt to demean me, it won't ruffle my feathers, but I will probably like them a bit less for their intent.

I live in a society that drops the C bomb as a compliment. Tom boy would not even bee a blip.

 

[kuniggety]

Again though that is different from here and Europe, tomboy and girly girl are slang terms not adjectives. Here girly girl is just about synonymous with Essex girl which is not a compliment. This American site instruction girls how to be girly girls is actually pretty vomit inducing. How to Be Girly and More Feminine

It's a girly-girl website. It doesn't capture the opinion or attitude of all Americans. We have 5 x the population of the UK spread out over 40 x the land area. The amount of subcultures we have is pretty substantial. But I still think think it's okay for websites like that to exist. I might not be into it, or even see the appeal, but I respect that others are into it.

 

[Tez3]

I live in a society that drops the C bomb as a compliment. Tom boy would not even bee a blip.

Oh I know, it's the land where 'brace yourself Sheila' is deemed foreplay.

 

[Tez3]

It's a girly-girl website. It doesn't capture the opinion or attitude of all Americans. We have 5 x the population of the UK spread out over 40 x the land area. The amount of subcultures we have is pretty substantial. But I still think think it's okay for websites like that to exist. I might not be into it, or even see the appeal, but I respect that others are into it.

Even the part about gossiping about others? In the age of internet bullying? Okay.