Sticks are easy to come by

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I found this on bear attacks in Yellowstone park (figured I'd go with there since it's a park within bear country).

Type of Recreational Activity: Risk of Grizzly Bear Attack
Remain in developed areas, roadsides, and boardwalks: 1 in 59.5 million visits
Camp in roadside campgrounds: 1 in 26.6 million overnight stays
Camp in the backcountry: 1 in 1.7 million overnight stays
Hike in the backcountry: 1 in 232,613 person travel days
All park activities combined: 1 in 2.7 million visits

Quick note, this says bear attack, not necessarily injury or death. They go into both of those on the site, but this part specifies just an attack occurring on a visit there.

I found this on a different site, although it's not from a government/official website, just a blog, and I don't see a reference. It also doesn't state what time period it's looking at for this data, or if X has to be the primary cause of death, only cause of death, or if it's including secondary/tertiary causes, so I'd take it with a huge grain of salt.

# OF DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES PER YEAR

Cause of death ………………… # dead
Cardiovascular disease …….. 856,030
Transportation accidents …. 48,441
Drowning ……………………….. 3,582
Hypothermia ……………………699
West Nile virus ……………….. 119
Hornet/bee/wasp stings ….. 48.5
Snake bites …………………….. 5.2
Bear attacks …………….. 2

None of this is relevant to my point, just something that I found interesting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some martial arts schools like to teach stick fighting because sticks are easy to come by and therefore its a good weapon to learn. Chances are you're not going to be carrying around a weapon such as a naginata or a pair of kamas nor are you likely to find such weapons lying around but with sticks its another story.

Some people here have disagreed with me about that, I've even been asked where I live, that I must live in an area where sticks are common such as the woods, but I have this to say, how would sticks be not hard to come by? You can find them just about everywhere. Baseball bats, umbrellas, chair legs, golf clubs, crowbars, canes, lamp stands, tire irons, fireplace pokers, the list goes on and on. I don't see how in most cases sticks would be hard to come by.

I tend to agree they are far more common (in concept) than other weapons. Put me in a department store, and there are likely a number of potential "sticks" within a few steps most of the time. True in a lot of other stores, as well (I sometimes play a game where I stop and count how many usable "sticks" are nearby, and estimate how well they'd work).

Of course, they may not be literal sticks. At the courthouse, I'm usually working the X-ray outtake. The outfeed ramp is a series of rollers. The first roller is not locked in place, is made of sturdy PVC, and weighs a couple of pounds - likely effective, though it may not last more than two hard hits. There's a push stick nearby for clearing stuck items - pretty light and likely to break, but effective for pokes and hitting softer targets. There's an umbrella stand outside the door, and usually someone forgets one, so there's almost always one there - unpredictable in durability, but perhaps usable if I need it more defensively.

 

[Steve]

My point was that you are more likely to have issues with snakes and spider than you are to have issues with bears. This comes from experience... being in bear country and seeing people bit by spiders and snakes instead of by bears.

But lets get some data...
Bear Attacks | Wise About Bears


Spider Bites: How Dangerous Are They?


Snakebite envenoming.

Couple of additional data points we really need, if we're going to assess how dangerous these two situations are.

First, where are all of those spider bites coming from? I mean, are they all in the forest? If not, and we're comparing apples to apples situations, we'd need to screen out all spider bites that do not occur in the forest (as well as the bear attacks not in the forest). Do you have that?

Second, we'd also need to figure out the likelihood of death or serious injury. If you get bitten by a spider and all you need to do is put some antibiotic ointment on it, are we really talking about an "attack" that is analogous to a bear attack?

Snake bites are a bit more common, but even there, they are not frequent.

Third thing we need in order for this to make any sense at all on the topic of this thread is, how helpful is a stick going to be in each situation? If you're being "attacked" by a spider, a snake, or a bear, is the idea that a stick is unhelpful in each situation, helpful in each, or more helpful in some than others?

Ultimately, my point is, you're responding to the idea of a bear attack being rare with other things that are also very rare, and completely different. I mean, if you're going to pick nits about this, use something that is statistically significant, like being killed due to exposure, or drowning.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sure, sticks are common in the woods. Just not sticks that are viable for self defense or martial arts.

I don't know about that. When I'm out hiking, I often come across nice hiking sticks that only need a bit of clean-up. Plenty that were too short for that usage.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a big flaw in this logic. The main reason a stick is lying on the ground is because if is weak or dying and the wind has blown it off. It would be useless self defense tool.

Not necessarily. When hiking, I often find branches on the ground that have good heft and work well as hiking sticks, with minimal clean-up. Not as good as a nicely turned dowel with no obvious flaws, but it would certainly serve.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My point was... finding a stick to fight with is harder than most people think. Especially out in the woods. Sure there are a lot of sticks... but not many you can fight with. And even fewer that resemble your jo. In fact, naginata might be a better training weapon for what you would find in the woods that you could fight with.... its going to be heavier on one end than the other, and you probably won't be wielding it from the center of the stick.

This is part of the reason I train with various sticks, including some that are not evenly weighted.

 

[Steve]

I tend to agree they are far more common (in concept) than other weapons. Put me in a department store, and there are likely a number of potential "sticks" within a few steps most of the time. True in a lot of other stores, as well (I sometimes play a game where I stop and count how many usable "sticks" are nearby, and estimate how well they'd work).

Of course, they may not be literal sticks. At the courthouse, I'm usually working the X-ray outtake. The outfeed ramp is a series of rollers. The first roller is not locked in place, is made of sturdy PVC, and weighs a couple of pounds - likely effective, though it may not last more than two hard hits. There's a push stick nearby for clearing stuck items - pretty light and likely to break, but effective for pokes and hitting softer targets. There's an umbrella stand outside the door, and usually someone forgets one, so there's almost always one there - unpredictable in durability, but perhaps usable if I need it more defensively.

PVC can be pretty durable, depending on how thick it is. I've made some sticks for horsing around using lengths of PVC pipe, some insulation for padding, and bicycle grips. They'll leave a bruise if you get hit too hard, but are generally safe to wail on friends with, and they were very sturdy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't know about that. When I'm out hiking, I often come across nice hiking sticks that only need a bit of clean-up. Plenty that were too short for that usage.

Do you carry them around with you? And how often do you come across them? This may be a geographical thing, but I think I come across nice hiking sticks when I hike, but in reality I'll probably come across one actual good one every couple of miles. Which means if I were attacked, it would only be useful if I were in that 30 minute period where I was nearby (unless I pick it up then and carry it with me, which brings me back to my "it's not easy to find while being attacked, it's something to prepare with" argument), and even then it might be too far off the path for me to be able to pick it up quickly before I get attacked.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

An interesting thing to practice, in ptk there is a payong technique/drill, that can very easily be adapted to grabbing the stick from the ground and doing an all-purpose block. It's something interesting to practice-how quickly you can actually pick up a stick without being too rushed and dropping it, and immediately use it to defend yourself. Also a nice thing to practice with knives/pens. Have someone mock-attack you while you try to do it, and you might be surprised that it's tougher to do quickly than you'd think.

 

[Flying Crane]

Alaska comes to mind, they've got the big brown bears in the woods up there.

Out in the midwest its not uncommon to find black bears, grizzly bears, and cougars in the woods.

Grizzly in the Midwest? Nope.

Black bears and cougars are common? Again, nope. Yes, they are there, it’s possible you could encounter one. But common? No they are not.

Out here in California we have mountain lions, and there can be dangerous encounters as we have deeply encroached on their territory and given them no other options. But still, encounters are not common.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

PVC can be pretty durable, depending on how thick it is. I've made some sticks for horsing around using lengths of PVC pipe, some insulation for padding, and bicycle grips. They'll leave a bruise if you get hit too hard, but are generally safe to wail on friends with, and they were very sturdy.

Yep. The stuff on that roller seems of the more durable variety. I have some padded practice sticks I've made that......aren't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you carry them around with you? And how often do you come across them? This may be a geographical thing, but I think I come across nice hiking sticks when I hike, but in reality I'll probably come across one actual good one every couple of miles. Which means if I were attacked, it would only be useful if I were in that 30 minute period where I was nearby (unless I pick it up then and carry it with me, which brings me back to my "it's not easy to find while being attacked, it's something to prepare with" argument), and even then it might be too far off the path for me to be able to pick it up quickly before I get attacked.

I think this may be the crux of the disagreement on this topic. I don't typically think of a stick as something I'd pick up in the middle of a confrontation. If it's not on me, I'm not stopping what I'm doing to get it. But if I have a chance to do so because a threat is imminent (snake blocking the only reasonable passage to where I need to get to), then I can go grab something.

From a self-defense perspective, the example I use most is someone who has a knife. If they are threatening (not attacking) from a few steps away, I can reach for possible weapons. If they are attacking (or closer), I can't spare the attention. That would apply whether in the woods or a store. I don't think it's a matter of "will you always" or even "will you mostly", but "which weapon is most likely to be handy". And the answer to that last, in my opinion, is some kind of stick.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

An interesting thing to practice, in ptk there is a payong technique/drill, that can very easily be adapted to grabbing the stick from the ground and doing an all-purpose block. It's something interesting to practice-how quickly you can actually pick up a stick without being too rushed and dropping it, and immediately use it to defend yourself. Also a nice thing to practice with knives/pens. Have someone mock-attack you while you try to do it, and you might be surprised that it's tougher to do quickly than you'd think.

I think it's also interesting to practice throwing things at a person. Many folks think throwing anything at someone will cause a long blink. If you manage to throw it accurately at their head, that may be true. If you toss it outside their shoulder, it's unlikely to have much effect - and most folks can't quick-toss something nearly as well as they think.

 

[Steve]

Yep. The stuff on that roller seems of the more durable variety. I have some padded practice sticks I've made that......aren't.

Probably safer, if they give before your arm bone does. To be clear, I think a little restraint was called for, even though they were padded, as they definitely weren't going to break.

These ones I made actually had some weight to them, and made a very satisfying "thwap" when you tagged someone with them. I used 1" diameter, schedule 80 PVC (the black pipe with a thicker wall), and (IIRC) the 1/2" thick insulation for padding. I used liquid nails to keep the padding on, and bike handles for grips... the entire set up cost maybe $20 for four sticks, each about 2 feet long. You can get the entire set up at Lowe's.

 

[wab25]

Couple of additional data points we really need, if we're going to assess how dangerous these two situations are.

First, where are all of those spider bites coming from? I mean, are they all in the forest? If not, and we're comparing apples to apples situations, we'd need to screen out all spider bites that do not occur in the forest (as well as the bear attacks not in the forest). Do you have that?

Second, we'd also need to figure out the likelihood of death or serious injury. If you get bitten by a spider and all you need to do is put some antibiotic ointment on it, are we really talking about an "attack" that is analogous to a bear attack?

Snake bites are a bit more common, but even there, they are not frequent.

Third thing we need in order for this to make any sense at all on the topic of this thread is, how helpful is a stick going to be in each situation? If you're being "attacked" by a spider, a snake, or a bear, is the idea that a stick is unhelpful in each situation, helpful in each, or more helpful in some than others?

Ultimately, my point is, you're responding to the idea of a bear attack being rare with other things that are also very rare, and completely different. I mean, if you're going to pick nits about this, use something that is statistically significant, like being killed due to exposure, or drowning.

First... there are orders of magnitude differences here. Bear deaths are being measured in 100s per century, spider bites are being measured in 1000s per year and snake bites are being measured in millions per year.

Second... I was not the one that brought up finding sticks in the woods and whether you should use them to fight off the bear that is attacking you.

My point was that in the real world... the woods are a bit different than some expectations. They are not littered with hanbos, jos and bos. They are not full of bear on the hunt for people to prey upon. The real dangers in the woods are getting lost, exposure, hunger, falling... things like this.

Whether you are in the woods or in the city... being prepared and bringing things with you is the best bet that you will be able to find it if needed. I do think that sticks are easier to find in the urban areas... as there are many things manufactured that resemble sticks. I like the game of find the improvised weapon... (I may have played that myself) Sure, you can rip the leg off a chair to use... if you can find a wooden chair, and if you have the time to rip it off... last time I tried to rip the leg off a chair, it took some doing... and a tool... and if I had the tool to get the leg off the chair off... I would use the tool for my stick / knife...

When you find the Hanbo Forest... let me know.

 

[wab25]

I think it's also interesting to practice throwing things at a person.

If you are in the woods... why not grab a handful of dirt to throw at the attackers face? Dirt you can find in the woods, and you should be able to get a reaction from most folks by throwing dirt in their face.

 

[Steve]

First... there are orders of magnitude differences here. Bear deaths are being measured in 100s per century, spider bites are being measured in 1000s per year and snake bites are being measured in millions per year.

Second... I was not the one that brought up finding sticks in the woods and whether you should use them to fight off the bear that is attacking you.

My point was that in the real world... the woods are a bit different than some expectations. They are not littered with hanbos, jos and bos. They are not full of bear on the hunt for people to prey upon. The real dangers in the woods are getting lost, exposure, hunger, falling... things like this.

Whether you are in the woods or in the city... being prepared and bringing things with you is the best bet that you will be able to find it if needed. I do think that sticks are easier to find in the urban areas... as there are many things manufactured that resemble sticks. I like the game of find the improvised weapon... (I may have played that myself) Sure, you can rip the leg off a chair to use... if you can find a wooden chair, and if you have the time to rip it off... last time I tried to rip the leg off a chair, it took some doing... and a tool... and if I had the tool to get the leg off the chair off... I would use the tool for my stick / knife...

When you find the Hanbo Forest... let me know.

If your point is about getting lost, exposure, hunger, falling, I'm right there with you. I wish you'd started there instead of going on about spider attacks.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think this may be the crux of the disagreement on this topic. I don't typically think of a stick as something I'd pick up in the middle of a confrontation. If it's not on me, I'm not stopping what I'm doing to get it. But if I have a chance to do so because a threat is imminent (snake blocking the only reasonable passage to where I need to get to), then I can go grab something.

From a self-defense perspective, the example I use most is someone who has a knife. If they are threatening (not attacking) from a few steps away, I can reach for possible weapons. If they are attacking (or closer), I can't spare the attention. That would apply whether in the woods or a store. I don't think it's a matter of "will you always" or even "will you mostly", but "which weapon is most likely to be handy". And the answer to that last, in my opinion, is some kind of stick.

I agree with the last part of that, which is that which weapon is most likely to be handy, is most likely a stick, or an improvised knife, depending on your setting. But that doesn't mean they are easy to come by, which was the argument proton was making in the OP.

As for the rest, I'd agree that if you are aware of some sort of attack you might have a chance to grab something; that goes along with the idea of preparing something. Most of the time though, the better option is to avoid whatever the threat is, rather than grabbing a stick. For your example of a snake blocking the way while hiking, the better option would be to make a little loop and look for a better way across, if the snake looks to be a dangerous snake. Grabbing a stick and trying to move it or attack it only increases the chance of a bite. It's only in specific, contrived situations (You're hiking with someone, someone you're with just got injured and needs help ASAP, and the only way for you to get back is through a bridge/small trail surrounded by cliff/etc. that has a snake on it) where you can recognize an imminent threat, while at the same time not having the option of avoiding the said threat.

Granted, there are more likely situations, like photon's-a guy gets mugged, he gets out but his girlfriend/wife/friend is still there and needs help, but even then we're back to the situation of if you prepare for an eventuality, you get to decide the tool you prepared with.

 

[drop bear]

 

[PhotonGuy]

I missed this initially.
"do you train with weapons": I do.

"what kinds of weapons": Currently, I train primarily stick, machete, and knife (well-sort of currently. Haven't been in the gym for a bit, and the snow makes it difficult to train outside). I've also trained nunchuck, sai, bo staff, and a couple of different sword styles.

"why?": I enjoy it. That's really the main reason; I'm not really expecting to get into a SD situation where I have a weapon on me, and if that was my main concern, statistically I'd probably be better off just training cardio and sprinting a ton.

As to where I think you're going with this, yes I train with sticks and knives. I actually think there's a good chance I will have a knife or a improvised knife (scissor, pen, screwdriver, etc.) available, but that is because I'm almost always carrying one of those on me. So it's a matter of me being prepared, not a matter of there always being something easily found (although with an improvised knife the odds are much higher than other weapons). As for a stick, like I said there are very specific situations that I wouldn't rely on getting attacked in, but I can prepare by having one in my car or near my front door, for instance. But back when I was training another weapon, I'd be just as likely to have a sai, for instance, in those places. Depending on where I was, you might even be able to hide a sai or nunchuck in a backpack or a purse/man-bag if you wanted, that you can grab easily.

Alright, enjoyment is a common reason why people train with weapons, after all they're fun to train with. However, some people do train with weapons for the possibility of using them in self defense in which case sticks and knives would be the most practical. I train with weapons for that purpose and also because they help to develop coordination and also, as you point out, enjoyment. Chances are you aren't going to be carrying around a katana or a naginata. Training with katanas and naginatas could help you deal with home invaders if your house is broken into and you've got such weapons at home but they're not going to be much help at home when you're away from home. But as you said, there's a good chance to either have access to a knife or an improvised knife if you're not carrying one. Same thing with sticks, you could keep a tire iron or a baseball bat in your car. As it is

Of course if you are training with weapons for self defense as the main reason it would make sense to train with guns, that would be the most practical. However you also have to take into account if you can legally own and carry guns, guns tend to be more heavily regulated than other weapons.