Staying On Your Feet

[NotQuiteDead]

Did you bother to read the description of the double leg that I posted a link to? Someone doing a double leg isn't going to charge at you from ten feet away. You won't have enough room or time to spin around and extend your leg. Even if you did, what are the chances of you actually hitting them?

 

[arnisador]

Don't get me wrong, I believe all arts are equally beneficial in self defense

All equally beneficial? That seems pretty strong. I think some are better than others, but that most are good if trained well.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Did you bother to read the description of the double leg that I posted a link to?

Yes

Someone doing a double leg isn't going to charge at you from ten feet away.

*shrug* then don't do a technique that requires someone to start ten feet away. But the original post *was* about someone trying to charge and tackle you football style and about self-defense for TKD in general. It's all about situational awareness and choosing the right reaction. Not all defense work the same against all attack

If you are talking about a spinning side kick, though, in particular. I've done one with a person so close he was able to reach with my elbows. I did it because he was too close to me and I wanted to force him back.

Even if you did, what are the chances of you actually hitting them?

If they started charging from 10 feet away? Pretty freaking good. I practice that Well, not really, but I do practice spinning sidekicks against a swinging heavy bag to perfect the timing against an incoming opponent (too soon and you miss...too late and yo don't get proper power at the point of impact).

Two people in arms reach? Interesting question...take two people; Person X has done 10000 spinning sidekicks in his life, person Y had done 10000 double leg takedowns. Now, if I am X, and I know Y is about to attempt that technique, will I do a spinning sidekick...probably not...I'm going to gain distance instead. If you are Y and you know X s about to do a spinning sidekick, are you going to drop and try to beat him...hopefully not. A good spinning sidekicks is very fast and powerful and crouching down to put your face into the line of fire is...not smart. Any other situation? Like anything else..who's fastest? Is Y's attack faster than X's defense?

One issue in your description is the need for a proper setup, and this is problematical for two reasons. One is that you have to be very close..and that means you have to get very close. In open combat against someone who uses kicking strikes as a first live of defense to keep someone from getting close....

The other is that the setup has to work. Most of the moves you describe as a setup move for distraction are moves that there are defenses against; many of which I practice already.

Not to say that they wouldn't work, but again...it comes down to who is better.

The reality though is that *most* people are not so skilled as to do a proper double leg takedown so that the trained TKD practioner (like our OP) versus an untrained guy trying to grab his legs without proper training; *any* technique has a much higher chance of success

 

[TX_BB]

Did you bother to read the description of the double leg that I posted a link to? Someone doing a double leg isn't going to charge at you from ten feet away. You won't have enough room or time to spin around and extend your leg. Even if you did, what are the chances of you actually hitting them?

A) The response was to TKDkid which was a tackle type situation.

B) This is plenty of space for most black belts to hit most people. Hey at age 40 I sent a 225lb marine airbourne holding an air shield for approximately 6ft in the direction of my kick. The drill was jab-back kick on a charging opponent similar to the situation.

c) For your situation I'd start with breaking the nose with a jab, followed by finger jab to eyes, cross to chin/eye after that I like breaking knees.

 

[NotQuiteDead]

TX_BB, FearlessFreep wasn't talking about the original situation. In his post he clearly mentioned using a kick to stop a wrestler. 'Wrestler' isn't a term to describe someone who uses tackles in street fights; a wrestler is a person who trains (and probably competes) in wrestling, and would then use wrestling techniques where they apply.

How many times have you broken someone's nose with a jab? The jab isn't a power punch. How many knees have you broken? Probably none, it's not as easy as some people would like to think. I recently had to do physical therapy for my knees (and I'm still continuing with the exercises because my knees aren't healed all the way) so needless to say they are in pretty bad shape, but last Tuesday during sparring I took several hard kicks to my left knee and nothing bad happened. The knee, when bent, is difficult to damage. The only time you're going to break it is if the other person stands with their leg perfectly straight and puts all of their weight onto it... which isn't likely.

FearlessFreep,
You brought up using a kick against a wrestler so I went from there. If you really think that during a fight (when you're surprised, probably frightened, full of adrenaline, and on rough, uneven surface) you would be able to time a spinning kick just right so that you hit the opponent who attempts a double leg from within arm's reach, then I think you need to do some realistic training.

One issue in your description is the need for a proper setup, and this is problematical for two reasons. One is that you have to be very close..and that means you have to get very close. In open combat against someone who uses kicking strikes as a first live of defense to keep someone from getting close....

You sound like you're talking from theory, not from experience. Those with experience will tell you that it is a lot easier to close distance than maintain it.

Which is easier?

1) Cover your face to stop punches and rush at the opponent until you can clinch, possibly absorbing a couple punches on the way.

2) Run backwards from someone charging you while trying to kick them.

Why is it that the only people who suggest using kicks to stop a takedown are those that know very little about grappling?

 

[FearlessFreep]

I 'brought a wrestler into it' to simply identify a different kind of trained fighter as in an encounter between two people who were trained in much different styles to make the point that it is the amount and quality of training, not the art, that will win. A fighter well trained to fight in A against a fighter not trained as well in B will most likely suceed *regardless* of what A and B are.

In a fight, you will probably be surprised. You will probably have an adrenaline dump. You probably won't be on a flat surface. How likely are you to be able to overcome your surprise, adrenaline, and lack of balance due to the uneven surface and pull off a perfectly timed spinning back kick on someone who is only a couple of feet away?

Well, it works both ways. But most bar floors and parking lots are *relatively* flat Anyone is going to face the same stress. How likely is it for someone to do the perfect double-leg takedown? Including the proper setup and timing of the drop and then forward motion? It's all stress and adrenaline for everbody.

The answer is simply 'training'. Do you train your technique a few thousand times so that you can execute it without thinking? Do you train in stressful situations to overcome that stress and adrenaline surge? If you don't, then *any* technique is going to be hard to pull off, if you do then you're going to have a much better chance of success.

Closing distance is a lot easier than maintaining it. You sound like you're talking from theory, not experience.

It's about personal space...everyone is aware of their personal space...when someone gets beligerant, you want that space to be bigger. Part of training is knowing how far you can reach, which means guaging how far they can reach, which leads to knowing how far to move to stay out of their reach. Put that together with the idea of 'personal space' and the first point of encounter is going to be further out. Nobodies saying it will stay at that range, but a person comfortable fighting at that distance is going to make life uncomfortable for someone who wants to get in close enough to touch like you describe as the starting position of a double leg takedown.



I admit it seems as if you think you have the perfect attack that cannot be counterd by techniques from other arts. The original poster said "I do X, I want to counter a guy attack like so...how do I use X in that context" Try be a little constructive here.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Why is it that the only people who suggest using kicks to stop a takedown are those that know very little about grappling?

Actually, the people who suggest using kicks to stop a takedown seem to be the ones who spend a lot of time perfecting kicks in many situations..including takedowns.

You do what you know.

I could ask the counter...why is it that the people who say you can't kick to stop a takedown know very little about how to kick?

Which is easier?

The one you practice the most

2) Run backwards from someone charging you while trying to kick them.

No where did I say to run backwards while attempting to kick. That's truly insane...when I said maintain distance I was meaning either a) move backwards and stay balanced or b) kick them to make *them* stay back. A or B depends on the size and speed of the opponent

 

[Adept]

From experience, if a big strong guy pulls off a clean double leg take down, you have three reliable options. Go down and get him in your guard, sprawl, or get knocked onto your back and have your face turned to pulp.

The problem with relying on maintaining distance, is that it isn't always, or even often, possible in a SD situation. Sure, in a carpark you've got a bit of room. Until you get backed up into a car and they close the gap. Moving around in a crowded bar wont give you many options, and alleys and streets dont leave much room for maneuvere either. So while it's good to be able to keep your opponent at your preferred distance, you have to be competent at all the fighting ranges, or you'll be in trouble.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Adept, I agree about the various distances. Our self-defense training works at various distances (including grabs) and I would not rely on being able to *maintain* a long distance throughout an encounter. Most of my point was that to get in range for what was being described in the takedown (within hand tounching range) is going to be well within leg striking range so to get to that point means you have to come into that first line of defense and someone who trains TKD (or any MA with a strong kicking component) for self-defense is going to do their best to damage you out at that range and keep you from getting close enough to setup that takedown

From experience, if a big strong guy pulls off a clean double leg take down

I think part of the discussion was first how to prevent that 'if' from occuring

 

[NotQuiteDead]

Well, it works both ways. But most bar floors and parking lots are *relatively* flat Anyone is going to face the same stress. How likely is it for someone to do the perfect double-leg takedown? Including the proper setup and timing of the drop and then forward motion? It's all stress and adrenaline for everbody.

If someone is attacking you, chances are they aren't going to be surprised. A spinning kick that needs to be perfectly timed to stop a takedown is going to require a lot more skill than a double leg...

It's about personal space...everyone is aware of their personal space...when someone gets beligerant, you want that space to be bigger. Part of training is knowing how far you can reach, which means guaging how far they can reach, which leads to knowing how far to move to stay out of their reach. Put that together with the idea of 'personal space' and the first point of encounter is going to be further out. Nobodies saying it will stay at that range, but a person comfortable fighting at that distance is going to make life uncomfortable for someone who wants to get in close enough to touch like you describe as the starting position of a double leg takedown.

Again, more theory. I bet someone can run forwards faster than you can move backwards while trying to kick.

I admit it seems as if you think you have the perfect attack that cannot be counterd by techniques from other arts.

You assume all of that just because I'm trying to explain that a spinning kick isn't likely to work against a double leg? It is very possible to counter a double leg, try sprawling.

Try be a little constructive here.

I am; if I sat back and said nothing while you fooled yourself with ideas of using spinning back kicks to stop a takedown I wouldn't be helping you any.

Actually, the people who suggest using kicks to stop a takedown seem to be the ones who spend a lot of time perfecting kicks in many situations..including takedowns.

When you're practicing stopping takedowns, do you do this against actual competent wrestlers, or just other TKD students? My guess is the latter, in which case none of them will know how to do a double leg.

I could ask the counter...why is it that the people who say you can't kick to stop a takedown know very little about how to kick?

More assumptions. Try looking at my profile...

Believe what you will but I'm wasting my time with this thread.

 

[Shu2jack]

FearlessFreep, I understand what your saying about TKD guys doing their best to keep a guy in kicking range, yet out of grappling range. However, after training in the TKD for 12 years it just doesn't work like that. I am a puncher in a kicking art and I have competed against guys ranked in the top ten in the organization I belong to. Even though they (the top ranked guys) have studied TKD for years as well and they are fast, flexible, and strong I can still easily get inside kicking range. A feint, or a quick evade of the kick, or working my way inside, or something can negate your distance keeping. The fact that I can't grab them to keep them from jumping and spinning makes it difficult to win a TKD match, but that is the nature of the game.

IF you start at a good range and IF the attacker is not totally dedicated to bringing you to the ground and IF you are not taken by surprize, then yes what you are suggesting can work. Otherwise, my money is on the guy doing the charging/takedown if you are planning on kicking or jump kicking the charger.

 

[MJS]

IMO, the best way to learn to defend against something is to have some experience in whatever it is you're trying to defend against. For example, if you want to learn defense against a grappler, having some grappling experience is helpful here. Not always cross training, but to cross referrence from other arts will give you a better understanding of the defense.

As for the kicking defense against a rushing opponent. Just like anything, we are taking a 50-50 shot (no pun intended ) that it may or may not work. If it works...great, but if it does not, having a backup plan is very important here. Keep in mind that the person running is going to have alot more momentum built up. Again, we are taking a chance that our kick is going to stop him. How far is the person charging in from? Across the room? 6ft.? There is also the chance that the kick can get jammed and the takedown still happens.

Adjusting your response to what is happening at the time is a great way to go! :ultracool

Mike

 

[FearlessFreep]

Thanks, MJS, you pretty much said what I was trying to say but took it further; it depends..it maky work..have yor next move ready (one difference I see between beginners and advanced students, at least in sparring...and I count myself closer to the first, is that beginners throw an attack, advanced throw an attack and follow it up with another attack...and another..reacting to the results of each attack)

Shu2jack, I think you actually backed into a point I was making, and I mean that in a good way. You said you had trained for 12 years and were a in a kicking art and could get inside someone else's kicks. Well, of course You've trained for 12 years or so to do that. There's a difference between someone who has trained to counter a move, and someone who hasn't. *Most* people haven't. I know where I am now and I know where I was before and I know that if the 'before me' tried to attack the 'now me', the unskilled 'before me' would *not* be able to get inside the more skilled 'now me' with being seriously hurt. Sure, it's possible or likely for someone to get inside that first level of attack, depending on their intention and experience, but I don't think that means you shouldn't at least try to hurt them when they are out there.

FWIW, TX_BB first brought up the idea if a spinning sidekick, and I'm not even sure if he was really thinking against the takedown or the general rush-and-tackle. Mostly since I've known him to have good advice and much more experience then me, I've been trying to think through the logistics and mechanics of how that could work out (or when it wouldn't)

 

[FearlessFreep]

So let's be honest, most street fights, school yard fights, etc..., end up on the ground.


For what it's worth...

Most street fights go to the ground!

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In my experience the reason most fights go to the ground is because the participants don’t really know how to fight, as was the case here. Succumbing to the adrenal rush people tend to flail ineffectually. Eventually a clinch ensues because nothing else is working. These inept grappling matches often end up on the ground due to the force of gravity more than anything else.

Years later when I did learn how to fight, not a single altercation took place where I ended up on the ground. A good stand up fighter should be able to take care of business without going down (and that is IF awareness and verbal skills didn’t stop the altercation). In speaking with several other experienced 'experts', we all seem to agree that most fights actually do not go to the ground if one of the people has any fighting skill at all. In fact we concur that the ground is not a good place at all to be in a fight.
==============

 

[Andrew Green]

In speaking with several other experienced 'experts', we all seem to agree that most fights actually do not go to the ground if one of the people has any fighting skill at all. In fact we concur that the ground is not a good place at all to be in a fight.
==============

Strange how all professional fighters that fight when there are no rules preventing a fight from continuing on the ground seem to end up there quite regullarly...

This statement is meaningless. If one fighter is substantially better then the other that fighter can control where the fight is. Which will be where they are strongest, whether it is standing up, in a clinch or on the ground. The stronger fighter will get to decide that.

 

[TX_BB]

How many times have you broken someone's nose with a jab?

None-Not a legal target area for me, but in sparring I've broken opponents ribs twice and dislocated an opponents shoulder once with jab punches.

The jab isn't a power punch.

Generally everything a heavyweight throws is a power technique.

How many knees have you broken?

Three, none of them mine.

Next, if you really think the two legged takedown can not be beaten with strikes check NFL linemen vs linebackers.

Lastly, if you don't like the jab, try a double jab (forearm shiver) to the shoulders, back kick. Something we practice alot for tournaments.

Have fun I'm headed to San Antonio.

 

[FearlessFreep]

You answered it yourself; the superior fighter. That was the same as the article's point, a superior standup fighter will not go to the ground. Whoever is superior controls where it goes...

I saw a match, I think it was between Tank Abbot and some big guy named Cabbage. Abbot kept trying to rush in and take Cabbage down. It didn't work, Cabbage just evaded and brushed him off. So the fight stayed up. Instead, they stayed up, exchanged blows and clinched. Abbot *wanted* to go to the ground, and he tried, but it didn't work because Cabbage did not...and in that match...Cabbage was better at staying up then Abbot was at going down.

 

[terryl965]

I have read most of the post here and my question is every great fighter knows there limitation and will make the right moves not to expose there weakness, lastly yes I have seen heaveywieght knock some guy out with a jab. Power will always out do speed if the one with the power has any ability and no I'm a small guy by today standerds. I'm on my way to San Antonio as well see you TXBB. and anybody else that goes.

Terry Lee Stoker

 

[FearlessFreep]

For what it's worth, I talked about this subject with my instructor on Friday night.

I asked about various defenses from a double-leg takedown attempt. The only realy offensive leg response he mentioned was to grab the head and knee into it. He also mentioned the sprawl. He also did show/demonstrate some various evasions mostly involving side stepping and using hanns to the head and shoulders to redirect/realign the incoming attack.

Ironically one of the techniques he showed me I happened to see in a UFC match last night, I think it was between Ian "The Machine" someone or other versus another guy. Twice one guy tried to shoot in and the defender blocked the takedown attempt with the same foot evasion and hand motions that my instructor had showed me. The first time, the fight stayed up. The second time, the defender got under the arm of the attacker and turned him over and went down on top of him

So anyway, it seems as though I was over-enthusiastic in attempting to promote/justify spinning kicks as takedown defense.

Anyway, I noticed in two fights last night (the second was with Sylvia vs Rodriguez), that a stiker with good defense *against* takedowns can keep the fight standing up and end up winning. At least in UFC rules fighting

 

[Adept]

Anyway, I noticed in two fights last night (the second was with Sylvia vs Rodriguez), that a stiker with good defense *against* takedowns can keep the fight standing up and end up winning. At least in UFC rules fighting

Absolutely, which relates back to what you were saying before. The striker wants to stay upright, and the grappler wants to go to the ground. Whoever is the better fighter will take it where they want it to go, and usually win.

A striker doesn't need to know how to fight on the ground (although I still highly recommend it for everyone) he just needs to know how to stay on his feet.