Stationary leading rollback

[Sammy Naur]

That was not the claim.

Peter Ralston's 1978 victory in a full-contact martial arts tournament in Taiwan is recognized within certain martial arts communities. He was noted for integrating internal martial arts principles into full-contact competition, which has contributed to his reputation in this context.


What level do you think it was ?


He fought at a weight higher then what he trained for.


The Korean mentioned, dropped out. Problem ?
Probably part of a team, from Korea...

The International Chinese Kuoshu Federation (I.C.K.F.) was officially established in Taiwan in 1978 to promote traditional Chinese martial arts with strict standards.

Like his work....Relevant to the OP , he talked about and demoed some of his concepts on leading.
and maintaining a connection without physical contact..

Nearly 50 years later, many original articles documenting the event are unavailable,
as some magazines have ceased publication.

After doing some research, the only video evidence of any 1978 full contact tournament in Taiwan is a DVD..sold by Peter Ralston? But it's out of stock. Convenient.

Fight Play Demo DVD – Cheng Hsin

chenghsin.com

Yet it's easy to find others from the same year, here is Singapore 1978.

There are some "full contact" videos claiming to be from Taiwan in the 80s, but they are quite frankly very poor examples of of amateur fighting compared to the last video.

I'll leave it alone at this point, because I don't want to cross lines or style bash, but I find it odd someone would claim be be a champion who swept opponents at a massive tournament, but there's no official record and the only video evidence the tournament even existed is on the webpage of the same guy, and his "fight DVD" is $50 and out of stock.

Maybe I'm just struggling with the whole premise still, because I've been watching all of Ralston's available videos and it's making me irritated as an experienced grappler.

And that's without even taking into consideration the dozens and dozens of wacky self help videos this guy has put out. He comes across as a real nut, but one with a following. Sorry, not for I.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

After doing some research, the only video evidence of any 1978 full contact tournament in Taiwan is a DVD..sold by Peter Ralston? But it's out of stock. Convenient.

Fight Play Demo DVD – Cheng Hsin

chenghsin.com

Yet it's easy to find others from the same year, here is Singapore 1978.

There are some "full contact" videos claiming to be from Taiwan in the 80s, but they are quite frankly very poor examples of of amateur fighting compared to the last video.

I'll leave it alone at this point, because I don't want to cross lines or style bash, but I find it odd someone would claim be be a champion who swept opponents at a massive tournament, but there's no official record and the only video evidence the tournament even existed is on the webpage of the same guy, and his "fight DVD" is $50 and out of stock.

Maybe I'm just struggling with the whole premise still, because I've been watching all of Ralston's available videos and it's making me irritated as an experienced grappler.

Here, I will do it for you, that video of effortless power is the reason people think all CMA is crap. Because if it smells like crap and it looks like crap, chances are… it reminds me of Steven seagull videos, but worse.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Here, I will do it for you, that video of effortless power is the reason people think all CMA is crap. Because if it smells like crap and it looks like crap, chances are… it reminds me of Steven seagull videos, but worse.

So the more I fall down the Peter Ralston hole...this guy is a New Age self help guru type who sells a $400 kit and has a pretty sizeable YouTube subscriber base (5,000). He's put out a lot of videos that are basically just rambling. And there is no other sources I can find that back up his bio. Big tournaments keep records.

Sorry, not for me. Maybe there are just a million better examples of what the OP was trying to discuss, but this would be like asking Uri Geller to explain physics.

Like other things we've discussed....its 2025. Let's have a modern conversation with modern, concrete examples.

 

[windwalker099]

Here, I will do it for you, that video of effortless power is the reason people think all CMA is crap. Because if it smells like crap and it looks like crap, chances are… it reminds me of Steven seagull videos, but worse.

Something about glass houses comes to mind

Of course you have other videos of your work or others work that shows differently ?

May be a little older than some posting on the thread. At the time his work was noted among those looking for the type of work that he specialized in .

As he mentioned, he participated in the tournament to validate his Work, apparently also monetized clips of it taken at the time .

 

[Sammy Naur]

Something about glass houses comes to mind

Of course you have other videos of your work or others work that shows differently ?

May be a little older than some posting on the thread. At the time his work was noted among those looking for the type of work that he specialized in .

As he mentioned, he participated in the tournament to validate his Work, apparently also monetized clips of it taken at the time .

He doesn't and should not have to post his own video to dismiss Ralston's. You are effectively trying to move goalposts and claim Wing is a fraud? What's his "glass house"?

That's a logical fallacy.

The burden of proof is on your claim. I did my homework like you mocked other people about. If your only research is chengshin.com and Peter's channel, well...pretty weak stuff.

I'm an evidence based guy, and you quoted Sagan earlier incorrectly, too. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...

Unless there's no evidence of existence. And there's no evidence of this 1978 tournament.

 

[windwalker099]

Like other things we've discussed....its 2025. Let's have a modern conversation with modern, concrete examples.

By all means

Here’s an idea

Why not start your own thread

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Shang Shou (上手) translates literally to "upper hand" or "superior hand."
emphasizes the importance of sensitivity, timing, and positioning. It represents the practitioner’s
ability to sense and respond to changes in the opponent’s energy (jin) with precision.

Let's examine the Shang Shou usage in striking art and in throwing art.

What can Shang Shou do if your opponent kicks your groin and then punches to your face?



Also, what can Shang Shou do if your opponent underhooks your arm and then spring your leg?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

By all means

Here’s an idea

Why not start your own thread

Something about glass houses comes to mind

Of course you have other videos of your work or others work that shows differently ?

May be a little older than some posting on the thread. At the time his work was noted among those looking for the type of work that he specialized in .

As he mentioned, he participated in the tournament to validate his Work, apparently also monetized clips of it taken at the time .

I touched a nerve? Every time I see some video of some frail out of shape codger with students who fly through the air at his very touch I smell that same old smell. Performance should be skilled, or at the very least, entertaining. I don’t make videos because I’m not trying to sell anything or convince anyone.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

He doesn't and should not have to post his own video to dismiss Ralston's. You are effectively trying to move goalposts and claim Wing is a fraud? What's his "glass house"?

That's a logical fallacy.

The burden of proof is on your claim. I did my homework like you mocked other people about. If your only research is chengshin.com and Peter's channel, well...pretty weak stuff.

I'm an evidence based guy, and you quoted Sagan earlier incorrectly, too. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...

Unless there's no evidence of existence. And there's no evidence of this 1978 tournament.

I couldn’t care less if they call me a fraud. I do, however, resent videos or purported CMA masters performing no touch knockouts and claiming magical wuxia powers. There are some few rare practitioners that can do some interesting things others cannot do, but in my experience, they are never frail by any standard, they do not post videos, and they do not claim mysterious powers or championships. That is what grieves me the most.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the real world, when you make 1 move, your opponent will respond with 1 move. What will Shang Shou do you your opponent throws:

- left jab,
- right cross,
- left hook,
- right uppercut,

a 4 punches combo within 1 second (1/4 second for each punch)? Your respond to your opponent's punch may create an opening for your opponent's next punch.

 

[windwalker099]

I don’t make videos because I’m not trying to sell anything or convince anyone.

Peter Ralston, a noted figure in the development of full-contact fighting, presents a concept he calls "stationary leading rollback."
What he outlines aligns with the principles described in

" **Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"** by Tang Fengchi.

Neither am I...
The OP wasn't about Peter Ralston

There are some few rare practitioners that can do some interesting things others cannot do, but in my experience, they are never frail by any standard, they do not post videos, and they do not claim mysterious powers or championships. That is what grieves me the most.

our experiences are different
Maybe when I was younger it did bother me,,,
not much any more...

What others claim or do neither validates nor invalidates my own experiences. This is a space to exchange ideas and discuss different perspectives. Disagreements are to be expected, but it seems some are attempting to dismiss historical references that were presented to support a concept.

 

[windwalker099]

What will Shang Shou do you your opponent throws:

There seems to be some confusion about what it is, and refers to.

Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"
By Tang Fengchi

The primary characteristic of the Yang-style Wang lineage of Taijiquan lies in “Dian, Duan,
Pai” (Point, Break, and Strike). As it is often said, “True mastery lies in understanding
Dian-Duan.”

The essence of Dian-Duan Jin (Point-Break Energy) is rooted in Shang Shou
(a state of mastery in connection and application).


While "Shang Shou" could be applied to throwing or other techniques, it specifically pertains to certain types of connection used in applications. In this context, it often involves very light or even no physical contact, a characteristic noted in the Wang Yongquan line of Taiji.

Thought the Ralston video, in talking about leading demoed this in a way most might understand.
guess not

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There seems to be some confusion about what it is, and refers to.

Understanding the State of "Shang Shou"
By Tang Fengchi

The primary characteristic of the Yang-style Wang lineage of Taijiquan lies in “Dian, Duan,
Pai” (Point, Break, and Strike). As it is often said, “True mastery lies in understanding
Dian-Duan.”

The essence of Dian-Duan Jin (Point-Break Energy) is rooted in Shang Shou
(a state of mastery in connection and application).


While "Shang Shou" could be applied to throwing or other techniques, it specifically pertains to certain types of connection used in applications. In this context, it often involves very light or even no physical contact, a characteristic noted in the Wang Yongquan line of Taiji.

Thought the Ralston video, in talking about leading demoed this in a way most might understand.
guess not

Understanding the video, most can understand once they have experience. That’s precisely the reason there was pushback. Historical references aside, the video demonstrates nothing of value, save that of persuasion and lackluster performance. What is more perplexing is that you would even bother to post and then defend such a thing.

 

[Same Trick]

That was not the claim.

Peter Ralston's 1978 victory in a full-contact martial arts tournament in Taiwan is recognized within certain martial arts communities. He was noted for integrating internal martial arts principles into full-contact competition, which has contributed to his reputation in this context.


What level do you think it was ?


He fought at a weight higher then what he trained for.


The Korean mentioned, dropped out. Problem ?
Probably part of a team, from Korea...

The International Chinese Kuoshu Federation (I.C.K.F.) was officially established in Taiwan in 1978 to promote traditional Chinese martial arts with strict standards.

Like his work....Relevant to the OP , he talked about and demoed some of his concepts on leading.
and maintaining a connection without physical contact..

Nearly 50 years later, many original articles documenting the event are unavailable,
as some magazines have ceased publication.

Sure, what i wrote was not word for word citation but I don’t see that the inherent meaning is different .



I don’t really think Ralston integrated any specific internal martial arts into full contact fighting, as the article mention - “he was doing boxing”, what he probably did was to realize that boxing have some same essence as what internal martial arts are designed to convey to its practitioners .



The level I speak of is the level of that world championship tournament, I already answered your question about this, that - participants qualified for a world championship don’t leave walk overs because they get scared by seeing opponents warmup - that’s not high level world championship spirit.



That he fought a weight higher was because he had gained that weight…..and, with his “specific” expertise weight divisions shouldn’t be of any concern .



And, what, There was two US teams in the world championships??
The line up pic show a “Cheng hsin USA” team and a “white dragon USA”team ??

 

[Same Trick]

He doesn't and should not have to post his own video to dismiss Ralston's. You are effectively trying to move goalposts and claim Wing is a fraud? What's his "glass house"?

That's a logical fallacy.

The burden of proof is on your claim. I did my homework like you mocked other people about. If your only research is chengshin.com and Peter's channel, well...pretty weak stuff.

I'm an evidence based guy, and you quoted Sagan earlier incorrectly, too. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...

Unless there's no evidence of existence. And there's no evidence of this 1978 tournament.

I think the tournament happened, but that it was not a world class tournament, far from it it seems