Started my sparring training with staff - Is it possible to learn on my own

[_Simon_]

Firstly, that's darn awesome!

Secondly, no idea if it's doable hehe. But hey, how did the people back in the day figure stuff out? By giving it a go and just figuring it out on the fly. Trial and error. It may take longer, but a heck of a lot of fun, especially training it with your son.

I'd say with your experience you'd be able to gain alot of ground. But seriously, have fun

 

[jobo]

It's official. My son and I are training staff technique for functional application. We aren't doing the 2 man set kung fu stuff. We are actually using common swings and attacks and learning how to address them using the techniques we learned in Jow Ga.

I'm going to also take a look at some staff swings that are used in dog brother's gathering for the purpose of understanding how Jow Ga techniques would handle such swings. I think 2 years of training may get us to a good place.

This will be interesting since this will me learning 90% of it on my own. I know the techniques through formal training but as for the application. I'm almost starting at zero. So the real questions are going to be.

Do I have enough knowledge and understanding that will make it possible for me to
1. Learn kung fu staff fighting on my own with minimum assistance
2. Learn kung fu staff fighting at a high level with minimum assistance.

This is going to be a true challenge of my knowledge and understanding. Once I think I have it down pat, then I'll go a few rounds with untrained users and work my way up to may Dog Brother level.

I think this is something I can realistically do. I'll eventually start documenting it online.

no mate, its impossible to learn any hand to hand weapons training on your own, thats if learnt means youcan fight someone else with training and a staff, but as finding anyone else with both a staff and training, is difficult unless you seek them out,that doesnt seem to matter much

can you teach yourself how to attack an unarmed person using a staff, yes I think that may be possible to at least some level

 

[Flying Crane]

The real problem we've been having is how to do any free sparring safely. A light or padded stick doesn't move or work like a heavy fighting staff. And we tend to favor really compact movements unlike most of what you see. Using the lead end to parry and jab.

I think this is a really important point. I am not convinced that sparring will closely resemble actual combat with a staff. Because in sparring, you need to not kill your partner, so how we will engage with the staff will be different. That doesn’t mean that sparring can’t be beneficial. But you need to be able to understand that there is a big difference.

One of the guys asked if you can generate good power with a short, one foot jab. So I jabbed the hard, old palm tree next to him. Made a loud thud and dented the trunk about 3/4 of an inch deep. Like you had really whaled on it with a 25 oz. framing hammer. He was like "Holy shiite!" ...And I'm small and old. Most can hit harder than I can.

Anyway, it's a work in progress. Let's keep this conversation going!

Yup, you can crush a skull and break lots of bones with a good staff. This is deadly stuff if you are doing it with real intent. I think a lot of people fail to recognize that. Too many movies where the hero takes a beating and keeps coming back for more. I can promise you that if I hit you with my staff, you will not get up. Ever.

 

[JowGaWolf]

no mate, its impossible to learn any hand to hand weapons training on your own, thats if learnt means youcan fight someone else with training and a staff, but as finding anyone else with both a staff and training, is difficult unless you seek them out,that doesnt seem to matter much

can you teach yourself how to attack an unarmed person using a staff, yes I think that may be possible to at least some level

We shall see.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Firstly, that's darn awesome!

Secondly, no idea if it's doable hehe. But hey, how did the people back in the day figure stuff out? By giving it a go and just figuring it out on the fly. Trial and error. It may take longer, but a heck of a lot of fun, especially training it with your son.

I'd say with your experience you'd be able to gain alot of ground. But seriously, have fun

My new saying "If you want to really understand something then learn how to correct your own mistakes." That's what I'm going with here. lol.

But lately I've been taking a closer look at how I learn martial arts vs how others might be learning it. I'm teaching my son and I'm forcing him to learn how to figure things out. I don't just give him answers. So when I give him questions of what he can do next, I often get a blank stare and no answer. I think of it like this.

This is martial arts. Some people will take that cube and try to see where it fits. This is me. This is how I learn martial arts. Seems crazy, but by doing this I become familiar with the other shapes and the resistance that it gives when it confronted by the cube. Most people will be taught that the cube goes into the square shape. So that's what they do. Because of this they do not become familiar with the resistance of the other shapes. This is how my son learns, so when I ask him, what are some of the things he can try, he's not able to answer because that would require him to try to fit the peg in every shape.

Fitting a square peg in a round hole seems insane. Would I try it. sure will. Then I would try to understand if this is always false or are there some exceptions to this reality. A lot of people will say that it's inpossible to fit a square peg to a round hole. The truth is that it isn't . Make the round hold larger or the square peg smaller or both and you'll have a working solution. If I'm the square peg and my opponent is a triangle. Then I have to figure out is there something I can do with my square technique that will allow it to be fit in a triangle shape defense. Or is there something I can do to the defense to either enlarge it or change it's shape. When does that reality exist, if it exists? By exploring it I understand my technique better and I understand the technique that my opponent is using to defend or attack better.

In terms of martial arts, I want him to be the person who tries to different solutions and not just pick the one I tell him it is. I want him to take what he knows try them each or run it through his head and see what the options are, understand where it fails and how it fails and where the exploits are. At the moment he's not there. People naturally do this with video games, crossword puzzles, and technology. I just need him to take the same approach with Martial arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think this is a really important point. I am not convinced that sparring will closely resemble actual combat with a staff. Because in sparring, you need to not kill your partner, so how we will engage with the staff will be different. That doesn’t mean that sparring can’t be beneficial. But you need to be able to understand that there is a big difference.

Shooting a gun at a target isn't the same as being in a gun fight, but it sure helps and it's better than not shooting at a target at all. If you know you are going to be in a gun fight, you'll want those targets. You'll need those targets

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yup, you can crush a skull and break lots of bones with a good staff. This is deadly stuff if you are doing it with real intent. I think a lot of people fail to recognize that. Too many movies where the hero takes a beating and keeps coming back for more. I can promise you that if I hit you with my staff, you will not get up. Ever.

We are going to train with real intent. But we'll be selective on how we direct that. One thing that I did doing our drill was to tell my son to hit my staff. He did, but it wasn't at the intensity level that I need him to do it at. So I told him to hit the staff to try to knock it out of my hands. In this particular drill it requires that he hits the staff twice while advancing so that he's in range to actually hit me. It requires lot speed, so he'll be lifting some weights to build up the strength for it. So in this particular drill I have him to attack the staff with real intent, like he's trying to get within range and that it's game over if he doesn't get that second hit on the staff in. When he goes hard at it like that it's full intent and you can hear the staffs echo through the neighborhood. He's full intensity right up to the point where he's about to strike me in the face. Once he's at the striking position he slows down, then does the strike. This way he doesn't have worry about pulling power off the strike.

He'll know if he can get the head strike in by what happens with the second staff strike. If it gets there on time. I don't just hold the staff there to receive a second strike. I try to move it in various ways to send it towards his body as if I'm still trying to use the staff. Unfortunately I will only be able to use intent with speed, with him. He'll get hurt if I go all out with striking his staff in the same manner. This is where I need someone my size or bigger so I can really go at it. But I'll take what I can get.

 

[Flying Crane]

Shooting a gun at a target isn't the same as being in a gun fight, but it sure helps and it's better than not shooting at a target at all. If you know you are going to be in a gun fight, you'll want those targets. You'll need those targets

Of course, but shooting a gun at a target is not sparring with a gun. It is more like controlled drilling with the weapon, akin to drilling fundamentals with the staff. Important stuff.

We don’t spar with real guns, although I suppose you could argue that paintball and soft pellet guns can be a type of gun sparring. But right there, how we engage with paintball is different from how we engage with a real gun. With paintball, there is recognition that there will not be lethal results from the engagement and that gives us freedom to behave differently on the paintball battlefield than we would in a real gun engagement. On the paintball battlefield, we can take risks in the pursuit of winning the game, and if we get shot it’s no big deal, all just a game. In a real gun engagement we would never take the same kind of risks because if you are wrong, you are dead.

I think it can be similar with staff sparring. Sure it can be beneficial because it gets you comfortable facing the adversary. But the back-and-forth that typically happens in sparring is unrealistic. If it was a real staff fight, the first thing I am going to do is smash your weapon out of the way by hitting your hands if possible. Now your hands are mangled and the fight is effectively over. My next shot crushes your skull and kills you. There is no back-and-forth sparring. It is decisive.

so if sparring is a component of the training, using some kind of light/padded weaponry and protective equipment, what also needs to be a component of the training is a more controlled set of engagement drills where you use real weapons and learn what it is like to smash aside and defend against something that is coming at you with real weight and purpose. Because that is nothing like smacking back and forth with light, padded weapons.

 

[Flying Crane]

We are going to train with real intent. But we'll be selective on how we direct that. One thing that I did doing our drill was to tell my son to hit my staff. He did, but it wasn't at the intensity level that I need him to do it at. So I told him to hit the staff to try to knock it out of my hands. In this particular drill it requires that he hits the staff twice while advancing so that he's in range to actually hit me. It requires lot speed, so he'll be lifting some weights to build up the strength for it. So in this particular drill I have him to attack the staff with real intent, like he's trying to get within range and that it's game over if he doesn't get that second hit on the staff in. When he goes hard at it like that it's full intent and you can hear the staffs echo through the neighborhood. He's full intensity right up to the point where he's about to strike me in the face. Once he's at the striking position he slows down, then does the strike. This way he doesn't have worry about pulling power off the strike.

He'll know if he can get the head strike in by what happens with the second staff strike. If it gets there on time. I don't just hold the staff there to receive a second strike. I try to move it in various ways to send it towards his body as if I'm still trying to use the staff. Unfortunately I will only be able to use intent with speed, with him. He'll get hurt if I go all out with striking his staff in the same manner. This is where I need someone my size or bigger so I can really go at it. But I'll take what I can get.

This is what I’m talking about. I think you are on the right path.
I was teaching my wife a bit of staff work a while back and I was trying to integrate similar engagement drills. One thing that became apparent very quickly was how powerfully you can smash down a weapon, or send it out of their grasp, when you properly engage the full-body connection. My wife is hardly a hulking bruiser, but it was still an eye-opener. I very quickly realized I needed to tone it way down with her because I was going to send her staff flying through a neighbor’s window when I defended her attack.

 

[drop bear]

Of course, but shooting a gun at a target is not sparring with a gun. It is more like controlled drilling with the weapon, akin to drilling fundamentals with the staff. Important stuff.

We don’t spar with real guns, although I suppose you could argue that paintball and soft pellet guns can be a type of gun sparring. But right there, how we engage with paintball is different from how we engage with a real gun. With paintball, there is recognition that there will not be lethal results from the engagement and that gives us freedom to behave differently on the paintball battlefield than we would in a real gun engagement. On the paintball battlefield, we can take risks in the pursuit of winning the game, and if we get shot it’s no big deal, all just a game. In a real gun engagement we would never take the same kind of risks because if you are wrong, you are dead.

I think it can be similar with staff sparring. Sure it can be beneficial because it gets you comfortable facing the adversary. But the back-and-forth that typically happens in sparring is unrealistic. If it was a real staff fight, the first thing I am going to do is smash your weapon out of the way by hitting your hands if possible. Now your hands are mangled and the fight is effectively over. My next shot crushes your skull and kills you. There is no back-and-forth sparring. It is decisive.

so if sparring is a component of the training, using some kind of light/padded weaponry and protective equipment, what also needs to be a component of the training is a more controlled set of engagement drills where you use real weapons and learn what it is like to smash aside and defend against something that is coming at you with real weight and purpose. Because that is nothing like smacking back and forth with light, padded weapons.

Not really. You learn timing. Basically each 3 or4 second exchange will be equivalent to a whole fight. But you just don't reset after 3 seconds.

And what you get is unrealistic volume of engagement which is a good thing.

 

[_Simon_]

My new saying "If you want to really understand something then learn how to correct your own mistakes." That's what I'm going with here. lol.

But lately I've been taking a closer look at how I learn martial arts vs how others might be learning it. I'm teaching my son and I'm forcing him to learn how to figure things out. I don't just give him answers. So when I give him questions of what he can do next, I often get a blank stare and no answer. I think of it like this.

This is martial arts. Some people will take that cube and try to see where it fits. This is me. This is how I learn martial arts. Seems crazy, but by doing this I become familiar with the other shapes and the resistance that it gives when it confronted by the cube. Most people will be taught that the cube goes into the square shape. So that's what they do. Because of this they do not become familiar with the resistance of the other shapes. This is how my son learns, so when I ask him, what are some of the things he can try, he's not able to answer because that would require him to try to fit the peg in every shape.

Fitting a square peg in a round hole seems insane. Would I try it. sure will. Then I would try to understand if this is always false or are there some exceptions to this reality. A lot of people will say that it's inpossible to fit a square peg to a round hole. The truth is that it isn't . Make the round hold larger or the square peg smaller or both and you'll have a working solution. If I'm the square peg and my opponent is a triangle. Then I have to figure out is there something I can do with my square technique that will allow it to be fit in a triangle shape defense. Or is there something I can do to the defense to either enlarge it or change it's shape. When does that reality exist, if it exists? By exploring it I understand my technique better and I understand the technique that my opponent is using to defend or attack better.

In terms of martial arts, I want him to be the person who tries to different solutions and not just pick the one I tell him it is. I want him to take what he knows try them each or run it through his head and see what the options are, understand where it fails and how it fails and where the exploits are. At the moment he's not there. People naturally do this with video games, crossword puzzles, and technology. I just need him to take the same approach with Martial arts.

That's brilliant, absolutely love that approach, and not only is it healthy but it encourages creativity, openmindedness and weaving and honouring your own journey, and growth into BECOMING a martial artist instead of just doing martial arts. Bravo

 

[jobo]

My new saying "If you want to really understand something then learn how to correct your own mistakes." That's what I'm going with here. lol.

But lately I've been taking a closer look at how I learn martial arts vs how others might be learning it. I'm teaching my son and I'm forcing him to learn how to figure things out. I don't just give him answers. So when I give him questions of what he can do next, I often get a blank stare and no answer. I think of it like this.

This is martial arts. Some people will take that cube and try to see where it fits. This is me. This is how I learn martial arts. Seems crazy, but by doing this I become familiar with the other shapes and the resistance that it gives when it confronted by the cube. Most people will be taught that the cube goes into the square shape. So that's what they do. Because of this they do not become familiar with the resistance of the other shapes. This is how my son learns, so when I ask him, what are some of the things he can try, he's not able to answer because that would require him to try to fit the peg in every shape.

Fitting a square peg in a round hole seems insane. Would I try it. sure will. Then I would try to understand if this is always false or are there some exceptions to this reality. A lot of people will say that it's inpossible to fit a square peg to a round hole. The truth is that it isn't . Make the round hold larger or the square peg smaller or both and you'll have a working solution. If I'm the square peg and my opponent is a triangle. Then I have to figure out is there something I can do with my square technique that will allow it to be fit in a triangle shape defense. Or is there something I can do to the defense to either enlarge it or change it's shape. When does that reality exist, if it exists? By exploring it I understand my technique better and I understand the technique that my opponent is using to defend or attack better.

In terms of martial arts, I want him to be the person who tries to different solutions and not just pick the one I tell him it is. I want him to take what he knows try them each or run it through his head and see what the options are, understand where it fails and how it fails and where the exploits are. At the moment he's not there. People naturally do this with video games, crossword puzzles, and technology. I just need him to take the same approach with Martial arts.

I think you need some ballance in your life, really ma is not that complicated that you need to spend a great deal of time analysing it, if you fighting someone with a triangle defence, hit them with a bigger cube attack that's if the shape thing makes any sense at all, which I'm not sure it does

 

[JowGaWolf]

ma is not that complicated that you need to spend a great deal of time analysing it

I find that people don't analyze it enough. For example my conversation about the Low kung fu stance.

I was once told that all sweeps had to be done from a low position. Then I started nailing people from sweeps from a high stance. You can analyze sweeps from a low stance and say "yes, that works." but if people don't analyze it beyond that then they may often be missing out on another viable way to sweep someone.

Jow Ga Kung Fu does low sweeps. I don't know anyone else in Jow Ga that do sweeps as high as I do. This was my own analysis beyond what I was told and as a result I'm able deliver sweeps that are faster than the lower sweeps that are taught.

 

[jobo]

I find that people don't analyze it enough. For example my conversation about the Low kung fu stance.

how long does it take to analyse a stance, I've analysed your stances previously, told you they were rubbish, took about 30 seconds, what else is there to think about

serious though, get another hobby to spread you considerable intellect around. you in serious danger of becoming an obsessive. try and crack cold fusion that will keep you busy

 

[JowGaWolf]

how long does it take to analyse a stance, I've analysed your stances previously, told you they were rubbish, took about 30 seconds, what else is there to think about

Not even worth it

 

[Blindside]

He'll know if he can get the head strike in by what happens with the second staff strike. If it gets there on time. I don't just hold the staff there to receive a second strike. I try to move it in various ways to send it towards his body as if I'm still trying to use the staff. Unfortunately I will only be able to use intent with speed, with him. He'll get hurt if I go all out with striking his staff in the same manner. This is where I need someone my size or bigger so I can really go at it. But I'll take what I can get.

You can still go fast and light with the right gear and some level of control. It is the equivalent of a boxing sparring match, it isn't full force all the time, that is for the ring (park?). I am not a good staff fighter by any stretch of the imagination, but I have people I can train against light and fast and then in a couple of weeks I'll go down and play harder at Dog Brothers.

Is is what I mean by light and fast (well maybe medium).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You can still go fast and light with the right gear and some level of control. It is the equivalent of a boxing sparring match, it isn't full force all the time, that is for the ring (park?). I am not a good staff fighter by any stretch of the imagination, but I have people I can train against light and fast and then in a couple of weeks I'll go down and play harder at Dog Brothers.

Is is what I mean by light and fast (well maybe medium).

Nice!

I've been thinking about how to safely add some staff sparring to my training. It looks like the staffs you're using are pretty light and have a little bit of flexibility. Are those rubber tips on the end to give some padding for thrusts?

 

[Blindside]

Nice!

I've been thinking about how to safely add some staff sparring to my training. It looks like the staffs you're using are pretty light and have a little bit of flexibility. Are those rubber tips on the end to give some padding for thrusts?

they are rattan, about 1 inch in diameter. We had previously used thinner ones but they flexed too much. The rubber caps are these: Blunt Thrusting Tip, Black

They just spread out the impact a bit and cover any sharpish edges, they aren't really "padding,' they are pretty solid.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

they are rattan, about 1 inch in diameter. We had previously used thinner ones but they flexed too much. The rubber caps are these: Blunt Thrusting Tip, Black

They just spread out the impact a bit and cover any sharpish edges, they aren't really "padding,' they are pretty solid.

Hmm ... those look like the right size for my rattan staff. Maybe next time I order something from PurpleHeart I'll add a couple of those to my order. Still have to be careful with thrusts, though, especially if your sparring partner happens to walk into them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can still go fast and light with the right gear and some level of control. It is the equivalent of a boxing sparring match, it isn't full force all the time, that is for the ring (park?). I am not a good staff fighter by any stretch of the imagination, but I have people I can train against light and fast and then in a couple of weeks I'll go down and play harder at Dog Brothers.

Is is what I mean by light and fast (well maybe medium).

I'll try a get a video of my son and I doing drills. If we hold the staff as if it's a spear then yes. If we hold it like a double head staff (which is how we use it) then the other end of that staff comes around really fast. If we aren't careful then it's possible to that one of us will get hit before we even realize that the staff was ever close. Maybe this weekend will be good to get some video.