Started my sparring training with staff - Is it possible to learn on my own

[JowGaWolf]

It's official. My son and I are training staff technique for functional application. We aren't doing the 2 man set kung fu stuff. We are actually using common swings and attacks and learning how to address them using the techniques we learned in Jow Ga.

I'm going to also take a look at some staff swings that are used in dog brother's gathering for the purpose of understanding how Jow Ga techniques would handle such swings. I think 2 years of training may get us to a good place.

This will be interesting since this will me learning 90% of it on my own. I know the techniques through formal training but as for the application. I'm almost starting at zero. So the real questions are going to be.

Do I have enough knowledge and understanding that will make it possible for me to
1. Learn kung fu staff fighting on my own with minimum assistance
2. Learn kung fu staff fighting at a high level with minimum assistance.

This is going to be a true challenge of my knowledge and understanding. Once I think I have it down pat, then I'll go a few rounds with untrained users and work my way up to may Dog Brother level.

I think this is something I can realistically do. I'll eventually start documenting it online.

 

[drop bear]

If you don't learn it right. It is probably not really going to matter.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you don't learn it right. It is probably not really going to matter.

ha ha ha very true..

This is basically going to be like someone who was taught how to kick and punch and then telling them to do sparring and figure out how the kick and punch works out best for you. This is why untrained people can still cause damage in a fighting and untrained people can still pick up a knife and make it work.

My theory on this is based on general fighting. If you can do some basic stuff correctly then you can figure out how to put it together. But like always it requires sparring.

One of the first things was to get a realistic idea of what type of things go on in a staff fight. I already know how to correctly do the motions of swinging and defending with the staff through my kung fu form. So I can fast forward through getting to that point. But I still need to know what goes on when someone attacks with a staff. This is one of the videos I use. To help me. It's a video of people attacking with staffs.

So first attack I must be able to deal with is an over head swinging attack for single end staff. What speeds am I looking at, how fast do I need to be able to move? What will be the risks. What type of speeds do I need to be able to achieve? What type of endurance do I need? What are the chances my fingers are going to get smashed.

Some people in this video so signs of training while others don't. They are fighting with a shovel and a garden hoe. I count how quickly each one is able to reload their strikes using this type of over head strikes, which gives me a good idea of how much time I have to counter with a Jow Ga staff technique. So I watched a lot of this stuff

After I watch this stuff I think of the Jow Ga techniques that I may be able to use. As long as I'm honest with myself with success and failure then I should be able to identify some things I can do. I think yesterday I tried 6 or 7 responses and all but one failed miserably. The failures helped me gain a better understanding. Sometimes I failed because I didn't do the technique as I was taught and it became really clear why the technique is done as it is instructed.

The other thing I learned from day 1 sparring is that the goal is to smash your opponent in the face or bones as quickly as possible. The 1 minute worth of bashing sticks in a downward strike isn't what Jow Ga staff techniques try to accomplish. It's more aggressive than what is shown in the videos. I'm basing that on how I felt when sparring my son. There was sense of urgency to do what you could before your opponent could use or reload there staff.

I don't know if this changes if I use a lighter staff. If the staff is too light then you'll have the speed that you'll need but not the mass. If it's too heavy then you'll have the mass but not the speed. The best way to fix that is to make the body stronger and faster.

The sparring was more like drill work, but is important so you can get used to the motion of the attacks.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don’t know what nor how much you have learned. From my own example, I first learned some fundamentals and then learned some forms. As I continued to practice, I began to extract portions of the forms and turned them into fundamentals that I would drill separately. From there, I began to develop my own combinations that I consider fundamentals, and practice them separately from the forms. Unfortunately I don’t have someone to practice with, but I am convinced it is functional stuff, fully lethal.

If you approach it in a similar way, I think you will figure out some good things. But if you have already learned some solid stuff, then This isn’t really self-teaching, in my opinion. Rather, you are exploring possibilities based on what you have learned. There is a foundation there upon which you are basing it.

 

[drop bear]

ha ha ha very true..

This is basically going to be like someone who was taught how to kick and punch and then telling them to do sparring and figure out how the kick and punch works out best for you. This is why untrained people can still cause damage in a fighting and untrained people can still pick up a knife and make it work.

My theory on this is based on general fighting. If you can do some basic stuff correctly then you can figure out how to put it together. But like always it requires sparring.

One of the first things was to get a realistic idea of what type of things go on in a staff fight. I already know how to correctly do the motions of swinging and defending with the staff through my kung fu form. So I can fast forward through getting to that point. But I still need to know what goes on when someone attacks with a staff. This is one of the videos I use. To help me. It's a video of people attacking with staffs.

So first attack I must be able to deal with is an over head swinging attack for single end staff. What speeds am I looking at, how fast do I need to be able to move? What will be the risks. What type of speeds do I need to be able to achieve? What type of endurance do I need? What are the chances my fingers are going to get smashed.

Some people in this video so signs of training while others don't. They are fighting with a shovel and a garden hoe. I count how quickly each one is able to reload their strikes using this type of over head strikes, which gives me a good idea of how much time I have to counter with a Jow Ga staff technique. So I watched a lot of this stuff

After I watch this stuff I think of the Jow Ga techniques that I may be able to use. As long as I'm honest with myself with success and failure then I should be able to identify some things I can do. I think yesterday I tried 6 or 7 responses and all but one failed miserably. The failures helped me gain a better understanding. Sometimes I failed because I didn't do the technique as I was taught and it became really clear why the technique is done as it is instructed.

The other thing I learned from day 1 sparring is that the goal is to smash your opponent in the face or bones as quickly as possible. The 1 minute worth of bashing sticks in a downward strike isn't what Jow Ga staff techniques try to accomplish. It's more aggressive than what is shown in the videos. I'm basing that on how I felt when sparring my son. There was sense of urgency to do what you could before your opponent could use or reload there staff.

I don't know if this changes if I use a lighter staff. If the staff is too light then you'll have the speed that you'll need but not the mass. If it's too heavy then you'll have the mass but not the speed. The best way to fix that is to make the body stronger and faster.

The sparring was more like drill work, but is important so you can get used to the motion of the attacks.

It is your end game that is important. If you are planning on getting in to some sort of stick battle. Then you probably want to be good at it.

If not then it doesn't matter so much.

And this is the thing with weapons in general. A lot of it is untested. So who would you have learned off that had a single clue what they are doing?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don’t know what nor how much you have learned. From my own example, I first learned some fundamentals and then learned some forms.

I learned the staff form that we have so I have the striking techniques down. Those I can do correctly.

I don’t know what nor how much you have learned. From my own example, I first learned some fundamentals and then learned some forms. As I continued to practice, I began to extract portions of the forms and turned them into fundamentals that I would drill separately. From there, I began to develop my own combinations that I consider fundamentals, and practice them separately from the forms.

This is the path I'm taking as well. Start with the easy stuff the foundations. Get that stuff down and correct.

But if you have already learned some solid stuff, then This isn’t really self-teaching, in my opinion.

The techniques of how to strike and how to block are things that I were taught, but it was taught through a form and not through application, I've done some drills in the past, but none of what I'm doing now are things I've done in the past. The drills that we de were the obvious low hanging fruit which I really didn't like. Of all the things that one could teach themselves it was that stuff.

I have had no staff applications training before. Drills yes, but not applications. Drills that I had had the same benefit of me holding a pad up and telling you to punch it. With the training I'm doing, when I screw up I know it right way. My son and I get into a fighting position as if we were actually going to try to hit each other with the staff. From there we work out the corrections.

The big thing about double head staff techniques is that it's easy to come up short on stick length. Being able to really move hand positioning is crucial. The larger the staff is in comparison to one's height makes a different. It's something that one has to be aware of all the time.

 

[Flying Crane]

I learned the staff form that we have so I have the striking techniques down. Those I can do correctly.


This is the path I'm taking as well. Start with the easy stuff the foundations. Get that stuff down and correct.

The techniques of how to strike and how to block are things that I were taught, but it was taught through a form and not through application, I've done some drills in the past, but none of what I'm doing now are things I've done in the past. The drills that we de were the obvious low hanging fruit which I really didn't like. Of all the things that one could teach themselves it was that stuff.

I have had no staff applications training before. Drills yes, but not applications. Drills that I had had the same benefit of me holding a pad up and telling you to punch it. With the training I'm doing, when I screw up I know it right way. My son and I get into a fighting position as if we were actually going to try to hit each other with the staff. From there we work out the corrections.

The big thing about double head staff techniques is that it's easy to come up short on stick length. Being able to really move hand positioning is crucial. The larger the staff is in comparison to one's height makes a different. It's something that one has to be aware of all the time.

Sounds like a good start. Don’t sell yourself short though. I think as you work on it, a lot will become intuitive if you are really thinking about it. And here is a critical thing: don’t get complicated. Don’t forget: movie-fu isn’t real fighting. Simple and straight forward stuff works very well. You know your strikes. Identify your guards. Recognize how you can move to defend an attack. And when an engagement happens, don’t spar the enemy. Rather, drive in to destroy him utterly. A staff is a lethal weapon. Use it like you mean it. And I understand that you and your son need to use caution so you don’t injure each other. But seriously, when your eyes open up to it, it’s pretty direct and deadly. If an attack comes in, just smash it down and break his hands/wrists, then crush his skull. That’s how you need to think about it. Not twirling the staff and looking for 18-step combinations. You aren’t choreographing for a movie. You are killing a man who wants to kill you and your family.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And this is the thing with weapons in general. A lot of it is untested. So who would you have learned off that had a single clue what they are doing?

To be honest, in terms of Jow Gan No one, that I have studied under to my knowledge knows how to actually fight with the staff. They can demo the applications for a technique, but actually having the skill set to fight with the technique doesn't exist. I'm kind of ok on that so long as the demo of the technique isn't BS. If that much is correct then I can figure the rest out with little problems. So far Jow Ga has been good with the "applications demo." So if I get stuck on something that I just can't figure out then I may be able to ask one of the Old School Jow Ga teachers about. Maybe they will help me, maybe not.

But for the most part I have to figure this stuff out. "Demo application" isn't the same as "real world application" Demo application helps, but it's not always a demo against what would be a common attack from someone today.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm going to also take a look at some staff swings that are used in dog brother's gathering for the purpose of understanding how Jow Ga techniques would handle such swings. I think 2 years of training may get us to a good place.

.

It might be worth your while to pay $30 for at least a month’s membership with the DBMA. That gets you access to all their instructional videos including a course on their approach to staff work. Seeing that broken down in detail will probably be more helpful than just trying to analyze what you see in gathering videos.
Start Learning Dog Brothers Martial Arts Today – Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association

 

[Anarax]

Once I think I have it down pat, then I'll go a few rounds with untrained users and work my way up to may Dog Brother level.

If you're referring to the founding Dog Brothers, they were trained by Dan Inosanto and have put at least hundreds of hours of sparring in. Not saying it's impossible for you to reach that level, but it's a long path to get there.

1. Learn kung fu staff fighting on my own with minimum assistance
2. Learn kung fu staff fighting at a high level with minimum assistance.

My "experience" with weaponry started with my friends and I swinging shinais at each other. I could beat all of my friends(not bragging)at the time, so I thought I was great with weapons. However, I quickly learned how inept I was when I started to train/spar with fencing coaches and Kali instructors. IMO, weapons, like empty handed training, requires training with high level people that have a firm understanding of that art/style. I think you can gain something from what you're planning to do though.

I think this is something I can realistically do. I'll eventually start documenting it online.

I look forward to you sharing your experience.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And here is a critical thing: don’t get complicated.

I learned this the hard way with kung fu in general. Which is probably why I get so irritated when people make it sound as if it's impossible to do some the things we talked about. For example, the long guard. I tell them the same thing that you just stated "don't make it complicated." Now all I have to do is tell myself that lol. I'll probably print out a reminder on paper saying that much. Sometimes it's easier to tell others than to follow the same advice.

And I understand that you and your son need to use caution so you don’t injure each other. But seriously, when your eyes open up to it, it’s pretty direct and deadly. If an attack comes in, just smash it down and break his hands/wrists, then crush his skull.

ha ha ha.. yeah. I don't think his mom (my wife) would like that. She trained with us today and 2 minutes into training she attacks me. Today's work out was footwork only lol. So I'm going to make sure my the cheap shots stay below a certain level lol.


But I do tell my son to do that with me. Not attack the hands, but to attack the staff. I'll probably use foam staffs to train attacking the hands. With strikes to the face I have him stab to the outside of my shoulder. Instead of my face. I'll probably rig some inexpensive training equipment for striking the face and specific areas and buy some lacrosse gloves. To help train better accuracy and control. I think once we get to that level we'll be able to really cuts loose.

Not twirling the staff and looking for 18-step combinations.

You are breaking my heart. You mean I can't do this? Man. I don't even want to train staff if I can do this stuff. ha ha ha

When I see stuff like that I think of stuff like this

 

[JowGaWolf]

It might be worth your while to pay $30 for at least a month’s membership with the DBMA. That gets you access to all their instructional videos including a course on their approach to staff work. Seeing that broken down in detail will probably be more helpful than just trying to analyze what you see in gathering videos.
Start Learning Dog Brothers Martial Arts Today – Dog Brothers Martial Arts Association

I'll give it some thought. From what I've seen in many of the Dog Brother's sparring videos, they do not use double head staff techniques. There techniques are closer to spear techniques. Double head staff is a closer range staff technique. In Theory it should actually beat out the spear technique once it gets inside the spear range

If they only fight with one end of the staff then it won't help at all in terms of trying to figure out Jow Ga Double head staff. It will how ever help me become more familiar with spear movement and staff fighting where the fighter only uses one end of the staff.

This is Jow Ga Staff Form. Our striking techniques look like this (actually these are our striking techniques mixed with some spear tecnniques). I have learn how to fight with this

These are the exact strikes from the Jow Ga Association that I train under

The technique at 0:18 is what my son and I trained yesterday. I like my application better. I'm not saying that what is showing here is wrong. There are many uses for that one motion. The one that I use just makes more sense to me. If the Concept is based on the assumption that someone is trying to grab your weapon then my application prevents that and it punished my attacker.

I just watched the whole video for the first time just now. Some of the applications that I saw here are the same thing I've learned in 1 day of sparring. Similar to what I was training my son, so that makes me feel good. The only difference is that in the video, the students here are using the spear technique on one of the techniques. and I was using a double head staff technique to do the same thing .

 

[isshinryuronin]

My Okinawan style staff (hard wood) use (most of the time) is to hold it in thirds, allowing for quick blocks and strikes with either end, and making thrusts easy. Chinese style seems to favor a more stand off distance, holding the staff with both hands near one end (most of the time,) and striking with the other with broad sweeps. Don't know much else about it, so I'll limit my comments to those that I think can apply to both styles.

Hand position - This is overlooked by most, yet in contact application (sparring with power) is of great importance. When you make contact, you do not want the force to be pushing against your fingers which can separate and cause the staff to be knocked out of your hands. The wrist must twist to position the hand so the palm takes the force. The necessity of this cannot be seen in self practice and forms. Since few practice with hard contact, this fact is not common knowledge, as you can see from many posted videos of blackbelts doing staff forms. Most all these guys will be disarmed in seconds if sparring with power.

Entering - Just like empty hand, get inside the guard and quickly strike with a shorter range move. You can attack the guard in various ways. Also, a prime exposed target is the hand and wrist. Strike these first and immediately follow up with a strike to the head.

Practicality - Forget much of what you see in weapon's demo/competition on video. In sparring, keeping control of the weapon is everything, looking cool counts for nothing. Any move that does not directly effect the opponent's weapon or strike a target is useless. Simple and direct is best.

Protection - A standard foam chest protector (TKD type) will be good for the body. For the head, a kendo/lacrosse helmet is needed that protects the top and sides. For the hands, lacrosse gloves work well. May feel a little cumbersome at first, but offer great protection. Maintain good form during sparring. Now you're ready to have some (responsible) fun!

These are the basics that come to mind. As for specific techniques, their value (or lack of) will be quickly seen when banging wood.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you're referring to the founding Dog Brothers, they were trained by Dan Inosanto and have put at least hundreds of hours of sparring in. Not saying it's impossible for you to reach that level, but it's a long path to get there.

Nothing I've done in kung fu has ever been on a short path.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'll give it some thought. From what I've seen in many of the Dog Brother's sparring videos, they do not use double head staff techniques. There techniques are closer to spear techniques. Double head staff is a closer range staff technique. In Theory it should actually beat out the spear technique once it gets inside the spear range

If they only fight with one end of the staff then it won't help at all in terms of trying to figure out Jow Ga Double head staff. It will how ever help me become more familiar with spear movement and staff fighting where the fighter only uses one end of the staff.

This is Jow Ga Staff Form. Our striking techniques look like this (actually these are our striking techniques mixed with some spear tecnniques). I have learn how to fight with this

These are the exact strikes from the Jow Ga Association that I train under

The technique at 0:18 is what my son and I trained yesterday. I like my application better. I'm not saying that what is showing here is wrong. There are many uses for that one motion. The one that I use just makes more sense to me. If the Concept is based on the assumption that someone is trying to grab your weapon then my application prevents that and it punished my attacker.

I just watched the whole video for the first time just now. Some of the applications that I saw here are the same thing I've learned in 1 day of sparring. Similar to what I was training my son, so that makes me feel good. The only difference is that in the video, the students here are using the spear technique on one of the techniques. and I was using a double head staff technique to do the same thing .

The second video in particular has some good stuff in it, in terms of the body mechanics in the striking. Very similar to what we do, switching from one end to the other and striking down with torso rotation for power. They can be very strong. The same fundamental movement can be done for upward and horizontal strikes as well.

a few of their applications look decent, but for much of it I feel they are getting too complicated. I don’t like in particular where they begin the confrontation with the staff horizontal behind the neck and down their shoulder. I suppose they are trying to start from a casual “walk in the woods” posture or something, but I don’t like it. Get the damn staff out in front where it belongs and use the length to your advantage.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My Okinawan style staff (hard wood) use (most of the time) is to hold it in thirds, allowing for quick blocks and strikes with either end, and making thrusts easy. Chinese style seems to favor a more stand off distance, holding the staff with both hands near one end (most of the time,) and striking with the other with broad sweeps. Don't know much else about it, so I'll limit my comments to those that I think can apply to both styles.

This is correct. From my understanding this is from the spear techniques. In Jow Ga the Double head staff technique uses both and the grip is different. With spear, hand grip opposite ways. In double head staff both hand grip the same way and there is a lot of staff movement with the grip. If I'm not mindful then it's easy to knock the staff out of my hand. That's not uncommon in drills where students get lazy about gripping the staff. Holding the staff is not the same a gripping the staff. Most people hold the staff.

The method that you speak sounds similar to how double head staff works.

Hand position - This is overlooked by most, yet in contact application (sparring with power) is of great importance. When you make contact, you do not want the force to be pushing against your fingers which can separate and cause the staff to be knocked out of your hands. The wrist must twist to position the hand so the palm takes the force. The necessity of this cannot be seen in self practice and forms. Since few practice with hard contact, this fact is not common knowledge, as you can see from many posted videos of blackbelts doing staff forms. Most all these guys will be disarmed in seconds if sparring with power

Exactly the same for me as well.

Entering - Just like empty hand, get inside the guard and quickly strike with a shorter range move. You can attack the guard in various ways. Also, a prime exposed target is the hand and wrist. Strike these first and immediately follow up with a strike to the head.

Almost the same for me as well. Hand are a bonus but optional. If I get them great, If I don't then my staff should still be in a position where my opponent cannot strike me but I can strike him or the staff again.

Practicality - Forget much of what you see in weapon's demo/competition on video. In sparring, keeping control of the weapon is everything, looking cool counts for nothing. Any move that does not directly effect the opponent's weapon or strike a target is useless. Simple and direct is best.

This is what I like about Jow Ga staff form. Very boring and very practical. It barely has flowering of the staff in it. Flowering for us is one rotation. A redirect followed by a strike. There are no multiple spins.

These are the basics that come to mind. As for specific techniques, their value (or lack of) will be quickly seen when banging wood.

Very true. When I fail when learning hand techniques. I get the feeling that I can just tweek it. But in staff when I failed it was like. "Dang I screwed up big time. There's no doubt. It's clear as day. Having the incorrect angle could mean the difference between blocking a strike and getting cracked in the head. Or in spear form, stabbed in the face. Right now I screw up in those areas too much. But it's only been one day so it will be something keep in mind. I'm screwing up on some fundamentals that haven't hit home yet. I do them in drilling but in sparring I'm not mindful about it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Jow Ga the Double head staff technique uses both and the grip is different.

This is why the stick is also called "2 heads snake".

I learned the stick fight when I was 11. There are only 3 drills. The 1st drill is as simple as the following.

Both you and your opponent hold stick on the 1/3 and 2/3 spots.

- You step in right leg. Use your right side of your stick to hit your opponent's head. Your opponent steps back and use the right side of the stick to block it.
- You step in left leg. Use your left side of your stick to hit your opponent's groin. Your opponent steps back and use the left side of the stick to block it.
- Without stepping, you use the left side of your stick to hit your opponent's head. Without stepping, your opponent uses the left side of his stick to block it.
- You release your right hand hold. Swing your stick at your opponent's head. Your opponent steps back. Use the right side of his stick to knock your stick away.

It's 4 moves combo as simple as "right high, left low, left high, release and swing". Even when you hold on the 1/3 and 2/3 spots you can only have 1/3 reach. When you release one hand and swing, it will give you 2/3 reach.

This is one of the long fist system stick form.

 

[geezer]

I've been doing a lot of staff work lately myself, drawing both on Escrima and adapting some WC movements from the luk-dim-boon kwoon to fit a heavy, six-foot 1 1/2 inch rattan pole. I'd like to compare notes at some point. Maybe I can get some videoclips. Warning in advance. I'm not good with tech. They'd be of very poor production quality.

The real problem we've been having is how to do any free sparring safely. A light or padded stick doesn't move or work like a heavy fighting staff. And we tend to favor really compact movements unlike most of what you see. Using the lead end to parry and jab.

One of the guys asked if you can generate good power with a short, one foot jab. So I jabbed the hard, old palm tree next to him. Made a loud thud and dented the trunk about 3/4 of an inch deep. Like you had really whaled on it with a 25 oz. framing hammer. He was like "Holy shiite!" ...And I'm small and old. Most can hit harder than I can.

Anyway, it's a work in progress. Let's keep this conversation going!

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'd like to compare notes at some point. Maybe I can get some videoclips. Warning in advance. I'm not good with tech. They'd be of very poor production quality.

I don't mind sharing. I'm happy to share my failures as well lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don’t like in particular where they begin the confrontation with the staff horizontal behind the neck and down their shoulder. I suppose they are trying to start from a casual “walk in the woods” posture or something, but I don’t like it.

I was taught that it's more of a taunt than anything else.

The purpose of that technique is that it's simply a taunt to lure someone in so you can get off a cheap shot. But I wouldn't suggest doing it unless you are at boss level staff assassin with 200 staff kills. lol It's more of a performance thing for forms. Sort of like how Bruce Lee wiped his nose. 100% Jow Ga Ego. If you see any form that does this then you can pretty much mark is as a Jow Ga seal of authenticity. There will be a 99% chance you are looking as someone from a Jow Ga school.

I application after you reach your 200th staff kill, you would use this to lure your opponent in. Most likely some one without a staff some one with a staff but wasn't good with it. If I were to use it then I would taunt the person well within the safety range and as the person approach I would flip the staff over into a ready position. I could be wrong I could be right. I just know that I personally wouldn't try to use it as I'm not big on taunting people.

Taunting works sometimes, but when it fails, it fails big time. For me I rather appear that I'm not ready but actually be ready. I prefer lure people in that way. This seems to be a safer way for me. But once I get to that Boss Level. I might give it a try ha ha ha.