Standing, bones and breath

[mograph]

As we progress and make breakthroughs, the form and frequency of our questions, focus and inner dialogue change. We become more mindful and aware of our bodies, giving less time to random thoughts; instead, observing the miniscule events in our bodies as they occur. We still "check in," but what we check and how changes as we progress.

 

[ChenAn]

And yet Yang Chengfu said Wuji standing is not used enough in training.

Chenshi comes with set of setting meditation as part of neigong. The focus of neigong in achieving wuji state

 

[Elbowgrease]

Lots of replies. I'll have to respond in pieces. Standing in wuji, mostly. And I do have to move. Standing is not moving and moving is not standing, but if I can't move correctly then I might as well not be moving at all, and if I can't stand correctly, I'm far less likely to move correctly. Duration changes daily. Usually not less than ten minutes, and usually not more than one hour at a time. But sometimes several hours in a day. I've started reading the Tao te ching for an hour a day while I'm standing if I just can't get in the right space. Lots of little things. Fixing a nasty foot injury by standing and feeling my feet. Fixing my foot but finding a lot more than just that. Not just standing there, posture is a verb. The entire body is fully engaged in the act of standing upright. In motion in every direction at once without moving anywhere.

 

[Elbowgrease]

Excellent. How do you maintain this sensitivity when you move?

Exactly.

 

[Elbowgrease]

Some breakthroughs happened really fast, honestly. Doesn't mean I've attained any sort of mastery of whatever thing, just finding it, knowing it's there and being unable to allow myself to go back to the old say voluntarily because of it. Last winter I started this and did it briefly, at least one hour every morning before I had coffee. Found the center of my foot the first day. When I started it this time, roughly the end of September, I was holding the iron rings. Ten per arm for a half hour then down to five per arm to finish the hour, listening to the clock for some amount of seconds and then changing posture. Get to the point of shaking, rings jingling like bells, then just let go and suddenly feel the breath hold all that weight for me. Then realized my foot was out of whack and needed to be dealt with first. So I stopped using the rings and stopped moving because I just really could NOT move without adding to my injury. Still can't really, but its getting closer. I can't move correctly but I can move very carefully and gently without hurting my foot. Sorry, I'm a bit out of it today.

 

[Elbowgrease]

Also, bitter. Eating bitter. Of the most unbelievable kind. On so many levels its just ridiculous. You just don't even want to know. With myself, its no problem. I have been dealing with all that for as long as a 30 year old can call a long time. The gym I train at might have to close. The other alternatives are even less positive. No one is really talking about it, but the tension is growing. Just one of the many bitter things. I guess maybe the challenge is to accept the bitter without becoming bitter.

 

[ChenAn]

You can stand all anyway you want and can feel good about. Form consists of multiple postures that can be tested by spending as much time as you want.

However, one thing is begging a question if you can't move correctly what may you think that you can stand correctly?

Sensitivity ? It can only be achieved through the touch. Push hands is our friend here, not ZZ


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[mograph]

Elbowgrease, Tez3, 23rdwave, Bill: if you'd like to learn more, you can google Zhan Zhuang, Santi Shi, Yiquan, Dachengquan or Taikiken. Here are a few links for you:

Yiquan - Power of the Mind
Publications
Four Paradoxes of Standing Meditation

 

[mograph]

While many sources call Zhan Zhuang "standing meditation," probably to distinguish it from simple standing in one spot, I try to avoid looking at it as a standing version of other types of meditation (concentration, insight) that call for specific mental practices not addressed in Zhan Zhuang practice. I think that standing while meditating might distract from those practices.

Meditation is really mentally-focused, doing head stuff that isn't called for in Zhan Zhuang. ZZ is really body-focused, in my opinion, where we note changes happening in how we stand, how we sense our bodies and their components, and how we can help them interact together, more efficiently.

However, I think that mindfulness can enhance Zhan Zhuang practice, allowing for an unbiased, non-judgmental examination and awareness of the changes happening (at the present moment) during standing practice. Mindfulness doesn't have to be practiced sitting down in a monastery: instead, it's an approach to how we sense things around us: unbiased, non-judgmental, non-evaluating, current. Mindfulness can be practiced while doing anything: eating, working, walking, cleaning. It's also called paying "bare attention" to what's at hand, without letting our mind wander to judge the thing, to compare it to things not at hand, to "multi-task" ... that sort of thing.

Mindfulness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article defines mindfulness as "a moment-to-moment awareness of one's experience without judgment." http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/07-08/ce-corner.aspx

Here's an article on concentration meditation vs. mindfulness:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/07-08/ce-corner.aspx

 

[mograph]

The body should be alive like an animal not semi-alive like a tree. There should be movement in the stillness. Try standing on the balls of your feet, ready to move. Try moving while holding the bao. Stay mentally focused. It's hard to do it this way for 10 minutes let alone 5. I have done the standing for an hour and it develops more bad habits than good ones. But I wouldn't know the difference unless I had spent some time treading those unfamiliar waters.

23rdwave, please feel free to contribute more -- I look forward to hearing about your experiences.

 

[East Winds]

I agree with what Xue Sheng and mograph wrote about ZZ. Yang Cheng Fu did indeed advocate ZZ although he did not call it that. Read his description of the Preparatory Posture (illustrated by Xue Sheng in the OP) where he finishes by saying ".......Let it happen naturally, for you cannot make it happen. I preserve my stillness to await the opponent's movrment. However people typically are liable to neglect this posture, ignorant in particular that regradlessof whatever technique is being practised or applied, none of them can be disassociated from this one. I hope the reader or student will give it first priority and pay attention to it" To me, the whole essence of Taijiquan is here. Ignoring this is to ignore the meaning of Taijiquan as a martial art.

Very best wishes

Alistair

The above quote comes from "Methods of Applying Taiji Boxing" by Yang Cheng Fu and Dong Yingjie, 1931.

 

[Xue Sheng]

While many sources call Zhan Zhuang "standing meditation," probably to distinguish it from simple standing in one spot, I try to avoid looking at it as a standing version of other types of meditation (concentration, insight) that call for specific mental practices not addressed in Zhan Zhuang practice. I think that standing while meditating might distract from those practices.

Meditation is really mentally-focused, doing head stuff that isn't called for in Zhan Zhuang. ZZ is really body-focused, in my opinion, where we note changes happening in how we stand, how we sense our bodies and their components, and how we can help them interact together, more efficiently.

However, I think that mindfulness can enhance Zhan Zhuang practice, allowing for an unbiased, non-judgmental examination and awareness of the changes happening (at the present moment) during standing practice. Mindfulness doesn't have to be practiced sitting down in a monastery: instead, it's an approach to how we sense things around us: unbiased, non-judgmental, non-evaluating, current. Mindfulness can be practiced while doing anything: eating, working, walking, cleaning. It's also called paying "bare attention" to what's at hand, without letting our mind wander to judge the thing, to compare it to things not at hand, to "multi-task" ... that sort of thing.

Mindfulness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article defines mindfulness as "a moment-to-moment awareness of one's experience without judgment." http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/07-08/ce-corner.aspx

Here's an article on concentration meditation vs. mindfulness:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/07-08/ce-corner.aspx

I agree, except on one minor point. Early in your ZZ training it becomes rather similar to meditation training. You do need to quiet the mind in order to get to the body focused bits. Past the; hold my arms like this, there are balloons between my fingers, I'm holding a ball, did I leave the coffee maker on, hey that's a siren.....etc. Then you find you can focus on the body...or at least that was my experience with just about any standing form I did.

I will admit early in my Xingyi training my first sifu talked about standing; Santi Shi and Zhan Zhuang, although we never stood in either all that long, and he was talking about Micro-cosmic circulation and macro-cosmic circulation,and although it all made very little sense to me based on all I had read over the years about XIngyi, I went through with it, go frustrated and eventually stopped. After a bit of a break I went back to what I had read and tried to apply that to what he had shown me, but I was at that point unsure about any of it. Went to my Yang sifu and the stuff he was saying about ZZ and Wuji made sense so I used that in Santi as well. It was not until after I trained with my 2nd xingyi sifu that my 1st sifu was way off the mark, what I read was right, and then the real Santi started.

 

[Ruhaani]

I did zz for a year and it greatly helped my vascular and breathing system very quickly I tested it while playing sports although I did 10mins a day now looking back at it what you say makes complete sense I think also you have to let go and go into half wake half deep sleepy focused state to go deeper within

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[23rdwave]

I did zz for a year and it greatly helped my vascular and breathing system very quickly I tested it while playing sports although I did 10mins a day now looking back at it what you say makes complete sense I think also you have to let go and go into half wake half deep sleepy focused state to go deeper within

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When I first started zz I would practice for a few minutes at night right before getting into bed. I thought that half wake half deep sleepy focused state would help my zz. But I realized the fallacy in this later because in zz we want to be in an awakened, alive state. It is a soft focus rather than a half wake half deep sleepy focused state.

Capture the feeling and hold onto it.

 

[Ruhaani]

Yh thats what I meant I practised alot at night and sunrise since I live in rural country side was perfect

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[Ruhaani]

I think I stopped when my body started shaking once I got kinda freaked out so stopped lol

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[23rdwave]

You can stand all anyway you want and can feel good about. Form consists of multiple postures that can be tested by spending as much time as you want.

However, one thing is begging a question if you can't move correctly what may you think that you can stand correctly?

Sensitivity ? It can only be achieved through the touch. Push hands is our friend here, not ZZ


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Without zz one cannot generate power without force. Push hands without a foundation in zz is just that, a sensitivity exercise without power. It should be both.

This is why all push hands competitions turn into shoving matches. No zz.

 

[23rdwave]

I think I stopped when my body started shaking once I got kinda freaked out so stopped lol

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That happened to me the first time I did qi gong. If it did not occur I may have given up.

 

[ChenAn]

Chen family was doing just find before Chen Xiaowang introduced ZZ.

I guess modern taiji marketing really works. People are reciting something they don't really understand. ZZ has nothing to do with generating power. Before practitioner even can think about power he has to learn a proper body method - shenfa and stepping method -bufa.

Given that practitioner understand basic body method there comes jibengong and etc.

It's just like a Lego pieces that has to come together before you can build anything else

As mentioned before ZZ may make feel people comfortable and happy. However, ultimate test of gongfu come under stress of actually using it. We can all talk about great benefits and theory. But unless any of us able to manifest it, it really means nothing.

Standing endlessly in ZZ see will not provide practitioner with much benefit or practical usage. Yes one will gets stronger legs, but so what? Weight lifters have strong legs as well does it make them great taiji practitioners? No!

Taiji is alive art not static, so maintaining body composure in the motion is very important. There is a taolu practice for that..



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[Xue Sheng]

Chen family was doing just find before Chen Xiaowang introduced ZZ.

I guess modern taiji marketing really works. People are reciting something they don't really understand. ZZ has nothing to do with generating power. Before practitioner even can think about power he has to learn a proper body method - shenfa and stepping method -bufa.

Given that practitioner understand basic body method there comes jibengong and etc.

It's just like a Lego pieces that has to come together before you can build anything else

As mentioned before ZZ may make feel people comfortable and happy. However, ultimate test of gongfu come under stress of actually using it. We can all talk about great benefits and theory. But unless any of us able to manifest it, it really means nothing.

Standing endlessly in ZZ see will not provide practitioner with much benefit or practical usage. Yes one will gets stronger legs, but so what? Weight lifters have strong legs as well does it make them great taiji practitioners? No!

Taiji is alive art not static, so maintaining body composure in the motion is very important. There is a taolu practice for that..



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You find ZZ as a integral part of Dai Xinyi (that would be pre-1700) and after that it is found in Xingyiquan. There is a variation form Dai Xinyi called Ape standing that did not transfer into things like Hebei Xingyiquan. Dai family could not understand how you could make Xingyi work without Ape standing.

ZZ does not generate power, but it helps you understand how to get things form the root to where you want it to go.

Bottom Line, Zhan Zhaung has been around a lot longer than Chen Xiaowang.