Standing, bones and breath

[Elbowgrease]

So I've been standing in training for the last few months. Just standing. Occasionally moving just a little bit, but mostly just standing there. Staring at the white wall. Now it feels completely different. I'm starting to feel my bones. Starting to feel the space between them. Feeling my breath move them. Feeling my feet. My toes. My fourth toe. I started to move again on new years eve. Still not done standing there, but moving again now. It's been interesting. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

 

[mograph]

Excellent. How do you maintain this sensitivity when you move?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Stance training is a big part of Xingyiquan and when I was training Xingyi and standing it ws at first painful and then when I got to about 15 minutes things got interesting and started to feel all sorts of connection...from head to toe

Xingyiquan Santi Shi Standing (XInggyiquan, and Yiquan)

also have done stance training using Zhan Zhuang (XInggyiquan, Yiquan and Taijiquan)

ad Wuji standing (XInggyiquan, Yiquan and Taijiquan)

I have found all of then rather beneficial. But then any posture will work, it is just some are harder than others to stand in for long period of time

If I may ask, what posture are you using to stand and how many minutes have you built to? and how long was it when you noticed the connections?

 

[Tez3]

As I don't do CMA I've never heard of this before and it sounds absolutely fascinating. Hope you don't mind if I follow this thread with great interest.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just standing. ... Anyone have any thoughts on that?

- Running is better than walking.
- Walking is better than standing.
- Standing is better than sitting.
- Sitting is better than laying down.
- Laying down is better than to be dead.

The moving water won't grow bugs. The daily used garbage disposal won't get rusty.

When you move a

- tree, that tree may die.
- person, that person will live longer.

For example, you can train "钝链割谷(Dun Lian Ge Gu) - dull sickle cut rice" through the static method.

But you can also train it through dynamic method. The CMA "十三太保 (13 Tai Bo)" has 13 static training postures. For each static training posture, it also has dynamic training posture. IMO, you will get more benefit out of your training through the dynamic method. The reason is simple. When you train the dynamic method, you also train the "application". This way, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[mograph]

As I don't do CMA I've never heard of this before and it sounds absolutely fascinating. Hope you don't mind if I follow this thread with great interest.

Stance training is the foundation of Yiquan, Tez3. Some see the practices as conditioning, useful to martial artists of many styles.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So I've been standing in training for the last few months. Just standing. Occasionally moving just a little bit, but mostly just standing there. Staring at the white wall. Now it feels completely different. I'm starting to feel my bones. Starting to feel the space between them. Feeling my breath move them. Feeling my feet. My toes. My fourth toe. I started to move again on new years eve. Still not done standing there, but moving again now. It's been interesting. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Interesting. We train various stances, but nothing like that (Okinawan TMA).

 

[Xue Sheng]

In some cases, such as Santi Shi in Xingyiquan, it is training structure as well. Ultimately you have to move and the idea is to be able to maintain and/or return to that structure without thinking.

 

[mograph]

IMO, you will get more benefit out of your training through the dynamic method. The reason is simple. When you train the dynamic method, you also train the "application". This way, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Attempting to kill two birds with one stone by combining two practices simultaneously isn't always productive: often the focus is divided, and each practice suffers. For example: simultaneous texting and driving often results in bad texting and bad driving. In the martial case, attempting to combine static and dynamic would likely introduce distractions (the motion) into the static training, preventing the adaptation and incrementally-increasing internal focus that comes from static training.

Dynamic practices are a useful complement, but not a substitute, for static stance training, in my opinion. The benefits of the latter can be found with long-term standing, at least 30 minutes at a time (we did 45), over a long period. At first, it seems difficult, and, well, boring and pointless. But after a time (months to years, depending on the artist and frequency), the mind and body adapt, leading to unexpected benefits that could not be felt before.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Kung Fu Wang's post reminded me of a conversation I once had about stance training, specifically Santi shi, with a student of Wang Peisheng

He said his teacher stood about 1 hour, but no one has that much time these days so.....

- 30 minutes is better than 20.
- 20 minutes is better than 15
- 15 minutes is better than 10
- 10 minutes minutes is better than 5
- 5 minutes is better than nothing

but preferred his students stand at least 15 minute a day, but he understood that time was much tighter these days and if all they got was 5, it was better than nothing. Had another Xingyi sifu, in China, tell me less than 20 minutes you are wasting your time. And one of my XIngyi sifu's sifu was known to say that your not even a beginner unless you can stand 20 minutes per side per day.

 

[mograph]

I agree that 15-20 minutes would be the minimum in order to make a breakthrough. Less than that is just endurance and leg training, IMO.
(There's nothing wrong with endurance and leg training, but it ain't no breakthrough.)

We shouldn't make the assumption that stance training is just like standing, only longer. It's quite different, but to see that, we have to stand in one spot long enough to make a cognitive/sensory breakthrough.

Edit: once you make the breakthrough, the benefits of standing are different. I found that standing for about ten minutes gave me a lot of energy. It certainly helped my squash game, to the point where I was described as a jack rabbit. But I had to make the breakthrough.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Absolutely, I had a teacher who would have us switch sides every 5 minutes until we go to 20 per side. Basically, IMO, you get not much from that. You have to maintain the stance for an extended period of time and then things get beyond endurance and start to get real interesting. But you can never forget, at least in the case of Xingyiquan, that you also have to be able to move, which is also very important.

 

[mograph]

But you can never forget, at least in the case of Xingyiquan, that you also have to be able to move, which is also very important.

Yes. In our practice, we had exercises that helped us make a gentle transition from standing to moving. If we lost the "feeling," we could stop to get it back, then continue. The exercises looked similar to walking in santi shi, changing sides, but with hands out to the side as if on the water's surface.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think I did some of that when I went to the Rengang Wang seminar last year, I did not do it right, but it was quite interesting, actually I found his approach to training in general rather interesting as well.

 

[23rdwave]

One of the mistakes made in zz is that people try to take a zen approach and tune out. It is actually an awareness exercise, both mentally and physically.

One should be asking oneself:
Are my shoulders down?
Are my elbows heavy?
Do I have an energetic feeling in my fingertips?
Are my joints all open?
Am I holding the bao in all those joints?
As I compress the imaginary ball I am holding does my body expand?
Re: Is the energy going in/out at the same time?

The body should be alive like an animal not semi-alive like a tree. There should be movement in the stillness. Try standing on the balls of your feet, ready to move. Try moving while holding the bao. Stay mentally focused. It's hard to do it this way for 10 minutes let alone 5. I have done the standing for an hour and it develops more bad habits than good ones. But I wouldn't know the difference unless I had spent some time treading those unfamiliar waters.

 

[ChenAn]

ZZ nowadays is one of favorite way of Chenjiagou masters to makes money Traditionally Chen didn't really have ZZ, but there were some standing exercises with limited motion that are pretty useful. Chen Zhaokui was teaching them.

My personal opinion ZZ can help at beginners stage, for the rest it's pretty useless as it develops absolutely nothing that can be used in motion. I remember Chen Bing used to advocate to practice ZZ in motion. I think motion add more value to it.

Oh yeas and I used to spend hours in ZZ for years. Fortunately I don't practice village method, so no more ZZ for me

 

[mograph]

Sustained, calm, aware, curious practice of zhan zhuang can lead to great speed and unified application force by connecting components of the body and helping us become aware of subtelties in the function of our bodies. In my opinion, its best application is at the moments where motion changes: at the start of motion, and at changes of direction. However, it also allows the body to maintain a desired motion in the face of interrupting forces.

Standing requires patience, humility and an appreciation of subtlety: it is a game of millimetres. However, without those qualities, standing is indeed a waste of time.

 

[ChenAn]

Chen Xin in his "Illustrated Explanation of Chen Family Taijiquan" has never mentioned ZZ. ZZ and SSG (silk reeling) are something what Chen Xiaowang generation brought in.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And yet Yang Chengfu said Wuji standing is not used enough in training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

One of the mistakes made in zz is that people try to take a zen approach and tune out. It is actually an awareness exercise, both mentally and physically.

One should be asking oneself:
Are my shoulders down?
Are my elbows heavy?
Do I have an energetic feeling in my fingertips?
Are my joints all open?
Am I holding the bao in all those joints?
As I compress the imaginary ball I am holding does my body expand?
Re: Is the energy going in/out at the same time?

The body should be alive like an animal not semi-alive like a tree. There should be movement in the stillness. Try standing on the balls of your feet, ready to move. Try moving while holding the bao. Stay mentally focused. It's hard to do it this way for 10 minutes let alone 5. I have done the standing for an hour and it develops more bad habits than good ones. But I wouldn't know the difference unless I had spent some time treading those unfamiliar waters.

Yes and no. You need to do that at the beginning but as you progress you do actually end up in a Zen like place, you no longer think of all that, but that is not tuning out, you are focused on what is now going on in your body, the connections and what happens when you move your foot, where does that energy/force go, then it moves.