Stand up grappling applications in Isshin Ryu kata at 10:22

[Kung Fu Wang]

In your example that "This is a book" can be changed to "This is not a book," or even "This is a pen", the grammar may be correct, but the meaning has changed!

The grammar (principle, strategy) is more important that the sentence (technique).

Form (technique) is your dessert. Your main meal is principle and strategy.

 

[Buka]

I'm not qualified to judge.

I love when you're right.

 

[Buka]

This will sound completely nuts, but here it is.

You might know that I am not a fan of George Dillman, other than for entertainment purposes, not a fan at all.

But if you ever get the chance, and can get him to not try and sell you something - talk to him about Kata. Kata from any style, from anywhere. The man is a walking encyclopedia on Kata and Kata history. Really.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This will sound completely nuts, but here it is.

You might know that I am not a fan of George Dillman, other than for entertainment purposes, not a fan at all.

But if you ever get the chance, and can get him to not try and sell you something - talk to him about Kata. Kata from any style, from anywhere. The man is a walking encyclopedia on Kata and Kata history. Really.

Dillman Sensei came from Isshinryu, originally studying with a first-generation student of Master Shimabuki, Harry G. Smith, who has his own interesting backstory.

Neither comes from my lineage, but there is little doubt that they were at one time the 'real deal'. Where things changed I have no idea.

I find that my own sensei has a great deal of information about our kata and a great deal to teach; more than I could ever process in the years remaining to me. I am content to continue what I have started and walk the path I am on.

I no longer attend seminars, courses, or competitions. I have come to realize that all I need is in my dojo, I just need to work harder and study more.

 

[Buka]

Dillman Sensei came from Isshinryu, originally studying with a first-generation student of Master Shimabuki, Harry G. Smith, who has his own interesting backstory.

Neither comes from my lineage, but there is little doubt that they were at one time the 'real deal'. Where things changed I have no idea.

I find that my own sensei has a great deal of information about our kata and a great deal to teach; more than I could ever process in the years remaining to me. I am content to continue what I have started and walk the path I am on.

I no longer attend seminars, courses, or competitions. I have come to realize that all I need is in my dojo, I just need to work harder and study more.

I have walked far and wide, still kind of do at times. But with every step of the way I have always had that very same thought in my mind and heart - "I have come to realize that all I need is in my dojo"

Ain't that the truth.

 

[Flying Crane]

Dillman Sensei came from Isshinryu, originally studying with a first-generation student of Master Shimabuki, Harry G. Smith, who has his own interesting backstory.

Neither comes from my lineage, but there is little doubt that they were at one time the 'real deal'. Where things changed I have no idea.

I find that my own sensei has a great deal of information about our kata and a great deal to teach; more than I could ever process in the years remaining to me. I am content to continue what I have started and walk the path I am on.

I no longer attend seminars, courses, or competitions. I have come to realize that all I need is in my dojo, I just need to work harder and study more.

I largely feel the same way that you do. I work within the methods of my system because the method makes sense to me. I have little interest in seminars or competitions or exploring other schools or other systems.

I also largely agree with you about kata and making changes to it: by far, most people have no business making changes to it, and by far most people have a long way to go before they come close to understanding their kata completely. For the vast majority, they have more than enough on their plates.

That being said, I also believe that some people are in a legitimate position to make changes and move the system in another direction. I do believe that we can build upon what earlier generations have done, and that does not make the system into something else, it does not require a name change, although it might become a hallmark of a lineage through a certain person.

 

[Buka]

Dillman Sensei came from Isshinryu, originally studying with a first-generation student of Master Shimabuki, Harry G. Smith, who has his own interesting backstory.

Neither comes from my lineage, but there is little doubt that they were at one time the 'real deal'. Where things changed I have no idea.

I find that my own sensei has a great deal of information about our kata and a great deal to teach; more than I could ever process in the years remaining to me. I am content to continue what I have started and walk the path I am on.

I no longer attend seminars, courses, or competitions. I have come to realize that all I need is in my dojo, I just need to work harder and study more.

There is something to be said for going exploring. If I had never done that I never would have done any Okinawan Karate. I think that would have been a shame.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What is the value to the scribe, in reproducing the book by copying the symbols that he does not know, if he does not speak the language?

I could copy a text written in Chinese or Russian, copy the characters or the Cyrillic letters perfectly, and I could do that over and over, but I don’t speak nor read Chinese or Russian. The exercise will teach me nothing of the meaning of the text.

Copying the movements of a kata without understanding what it all means is a very slow path to developing one’s skill. And in the context of a kata, it is virtually guaranteed that there will be subtleties within the kata that would be lost to such a person who is copying the movements. That is a huge reason why I argue against learning by video: because it essentially amounts to the same thing, and those subtleties can mean the difference between time well-spent or time wasted.

I think Chinese (or Japanese) is a good analogy for kata. If I copy an ideogram without understanding it, I may believe I've copied it exactly properly, but might actually make a mistake because I don't understand the drawing. This is especially true of written calligraphy, because there is some interpretation in the strokes. If you don't know the language, it's virtually impossible to figure out what's interpretation and what's error.

I hang around the dojo after my class sometimes. The black belt class (really, just a study group for the BBs) starts right after us. I watch them go through some kata, discussing the nuances. This isn't Isshin-ryu, so I can't say how similar it is, but it's a very structured, kata-rich Okinawan art (Shorin-ryu) that has folks with many years of training still discussing the interpretation of moves.

 

[punisher73]

It seems that there are two different arguments going on. Further refinement of a kata/movement and changing the kata. Again, the kata should teach principles and concepts along with the techniques. So, in Kung Fu Wang's example of the throws, if that movement was in a kata you don't need to change the kata. You take that base and show the student two different applications based on the movement. But, I have seen people who couldn't do an application and change the kata to something that they liked better. They lost the applications and concept that the movement was showing and if passed on that information would be lost to future generations.

There is also a difference between "changing" and "tailoring". Kata generally show punches to the middle level, if I am applying and practicing the kata and throw a punch to the face or lower to the bladder or practice throwing my block to a higher or lower level, I am tailoring my approach and not necessarily changing the kata. Again, something that students should be doing in their training to make it their own.

I have known many instructors who do alternative movements, but will tell students the change and why, but keep the original template.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think Chinese (or Japanese) is a good analogy for kata. If I copy an ideogram without understanding it, I may believe I've copied it exactly properly, but might actually make a mistake because I don't understand the drawing. This is especially true of written calligraphy, because there is some interpretation in the strokes. If you don't know the language, it's virtually impossible to figure out what's interpretation and what's error.

I hang around the dojo after my class sometimes. The black belt class (really, just a study group for the BBs) starts right after us. I watch them go through some kata, discussing the nuances. This isn't Isshin-ryu, so I can't say how similar it is, but it's a very structured, kata-rich Okinawan art (Shorin-ryu) that has folks with many years of training still discussing the interpretation of moves.

Very true

 

[Bruce7]

At about 10:22 Javier Martinez shows applications commencing with finger and elbow locks. Interesting !! Towards the end a kata is performed as applications are shown. Anyone know if the kata is Seisan ?

Cool Video.

Years ago my aikido instructure used a lot of the same techniques.