Stances are over rated!

[Tames D]

I know that this will make me very unpopular and there will be quite a few people that will disagree with me but this is how I feel.

But before you send out the lynch mob let me say that I do believe that proper stances are important and a strong foundation is a major benefit.

As a beginner I learned and 'mastered' proper stance and alignment and then moved on to making sure that I can defend myself regardless of my body position and angle. The last thing I want to do if confronted by someone is to jump into a fighting stance and escalate a problem that isn't necessary. So I feel it's important to be able to fight from a relaxed standing or sitting position (appearing to be non aggresive). I wouldn't want to have to ask my opponent to wait a second while I adjust my fighting stance because my toe's are out of alignment.

Anyway these thoughts came to me while training with a guy in Las Vegas recently. He's a black belt with almost 20 years experience but kept interupting the work out because his "stances were just off a bit".

Just some thoughts I have. Now let the attacks begin.

 

[Kacey]

Stances, like any other technique, have their good and bad points. As you said, proper stances teach balance, provide a strong foundation, and how to move and balance. Doing stances correctly requires on-going practice, as little errors creep in constantly, and have to be corrected before they become bigger errors - or worse, ingrained bad habits.

When I am working out - whether alone or in class - I am always working on something. If my sahbum says "work on this", then that's what I work on - but if not, I pick something for the workout or class, and unless I'm given other direction, that's what I work on. It could be stances, it could be preparatory movements, could be doing all my tuls at a certain speed, working on putting all of my kicks at a certain height, making all hand techniques double speed, work on focus... there are all sorts of things, and sometimes, I might pick several and trade off. On a night when I'm working on stances, I might indeed stop my tuls, my kicking drills, my step sparring, etc., to correct my stances - but it's not all the time. No one piece of an art should, IMHO, take over one's entire practice all the time, especially not to the extent that it keeps you from working on anything else.

 

[jks9199]

I know that this will make me very unpopular and there will be quite a few people that will disagree with me but this is how I feel.

But before you send out the lynch mob let me say that I do believe that proper stances are important and a strong foundation is a major benefit.

As a beginner I learned and 'mastered' proper stance and alignment and then moved on to making sure that I can defend myself regardless of my body position and angle. The last thing I want to do if confronted by someone is to jump into a fighting stance and escalate a problem that isn't necessary. So I feel it's important to be able to fight from a relaxed standing or sitting position (appearing to be non aggresive). I wouldn't want to have to ask my opponent to wait a second while I adjust my fighting stance because my toe's are out of alignment.

Anyway these thoughts came to me while training with a guy in Las Vegas recently. He's a black belt with almost 20 years experience but kept interupting the work out because his "stances were just off a bit".

Just some thoughts I have. Now let the attacks begin.

I've gotta disagree; stances are vital. Without a proper stance, you lack stability to do anything, and you lack the balance and mobility to respond to attacks. You should never be more than a step or pivot from a stable stance.

But stances also have to be flexible. Under pressure, you're not going to step into a textbook front stance, knee bent just so, toes aligned thusly. Because in the real world -- even the "real world" of a sparring match -- your step isn't perfect. You may lean a little too far forward, or your opponent may be just a shade to close for you to really lean into that the way you've practiced. So, all that practice developing perfect stances leads to effective modified stances in use.

Then there's the whole issue of postures of readiness... Whether it's a personal combat stance or simply sitting, standing, or walking through your day, you need to know how to be ready and where your escape and attack options are. You need to know how you can step, lean, twist, bend, or sway if you're attacked and can't move. Your personal fighting stance has to enable you to use your weapons, offensive and defensive. And you have to know what you need to protect. If you're carrying a gun, you may not want to use a strong side lead that puts the gun near to your adversary.

 

[Jai]

to a point stances i think are over rated, as mentioned above, if you put -to- much focus on them, what does it do? In a fight on the streets, you think "God is my (blank) stance look good?" and BAM you eat a fist for it. But then again stances are the basic building tool to everything. You have to have that nice happy medium and not over do or under do stances.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I think the fellow you trained with in Las Vegas is a very good example of why so many people are down on stances. He clearly viewed stances as some form of static beast that needed to be perfect in order for him to be comfortable with what he was doing.

It comes down to the word stance. Understandably it is taken to mean what it should mean. The problem of course stems from translation from Chinese or Japanese. Like Exile, I believe that once you have learned the correct position of the stance then it is not something you adopt so much as move through. They are supposed to teach correct balance and position while moving.

I also think that this obsession with perfect stance is a product of forms competition. In such a situation perfect stances are very important but that seems to have translated into combat somehow.

 

[Sukerkin]

Most succinctly and accurately put, ST :rei:.

In swordwork, a proper stance is absolutely vital to executing any offensive or defensive technique and the same applies to the empty handed arts - the trick is not to be deceived into thinking a 'stance' is a static thing.

It sounds a bit 'twee' to express it this way but if stances are rigid rather than fluid then they are limiting rather than enabling.

 

[MBuzzy]

First off, I consider however you are standing to be your stance. From that perspective, I completely agree that you have to be able to fight from ANY stance....including sitting, standing casually, front stance, or however you happen to be.

But I do believe strongly in practicing and working on perfecting your stances. The reason behind it is that the stances that we learn have been time tested as "good" stances for one reason or another and one situation or another. The more you practice those stances, the more of a chance you have to be in the right stance at the right time. That once the fight starts, your muscle memory takes over and you're not caught off balance as a result of a bad stance.

There is a reason why every style of martial arts in the world bases EVERYTHING off of the stance. A stable base is very improtant, but to be completely proficient and to be able to confidently defend yourself, you must be able to react from any position.

 

[Brian S]

I know that this will make me very unpopular and there will be quite a few people that will disagree with me but this is how I feel.

But before you send out the lynch mob let me say that I do believe that proper stances are important and a strong foundation is a major benefit.

As a beginner I learned and 'mastered' proper stance and alignment and then moved on to making sure that I can defend myself regardless of my body position and angle. The last thing I want to do if confronted by someone is to jump into a fighting stance and escalate a problem that isn't necessary. So I feel it's important to be able to fight from a relaxed standing or sitting position (appearing to be non aggresive). I wouldn't want to have to ask my opponent to wait a second while I adjust my fighting stance because my toe's are out of alignment.

Anyway these thoughts came to me while training with a guy in Las Vegas recently. He's a black belt with almost 20 years experience but kept interupting the work out because his "stances were just off a bit".

Just some thoughts I have. Now let the attacks begin.

Makes me wonder how long you have been training in your art. Have you shared this thought with your instructor? i'll bet he might have something to say about it.

You don't seem to understand the uses for stances. Stances are not static. You aren't meant to "fight" from a particular stance at all. You transition into that stance only for a short burst.

Stances are critical in your training. I believe Funakoshi said it best. "At first practice stances with utmost diligance,then rely on your own posture."

 

[Tames D]

Makes me wonder how long you have been training in your art. Have you shared this thought with your instructor? i'll bet he might have something to say about it.

You don't seem to understand the uses for stances. Stances are not static. You aren't meant to "fight" from a particular stance at all. You transition into that stance only for a short burst.

Stances are critical in your training. I believe Funakoshi said it best. "At first practice stances with utmost diligance,then rely on your own posture."

As I stated in my OP I do believe in the importance of good stances and strong foundation. I just feel they are over rated. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't need to be fanatical about it. And your right, Funakoshi did say it best and I have lived by that. After 35 years of training I feel my stances are automatic and I don't rely on being in a perfect stance to fight well. Do you?

And for the record I don't pretend to be the best Martial Artist alive. My art is nicknamed Ugly Fu for a reason.

But highly effective.

 

[Tames D]

First off, I consider however you are standing to be your stance. From that perspective, I completely agree that you have to be able to fight from ANY stance....including sitting, standing casually, front stance, or however you happen to be.

But I do believe strongly in practicing and working on perfecting your stances. The reason behind it is that the stances that we learn have been time tested as "good" stances for one reason or another and one situation or another. The more you practice those stances, the more of a chance you have to be in the right stance at the right time. That once the fight starts, your muscle memory takes over and you're not caught off balance as a result of a bad stance.

There is a reason why every style of martial arts in the world bases EVERYTHING off of the stance. A stable base is very improtant, but to be completely proficient and to be able to confidently defend yourself, you must be able to react from any position.

Beautifully said.

 

[kidswarrior]

I think the fellow you trained with in Las Vegas is a very good example of why so many people are down on stances. He clearly viewed stances as some form of static beast that needed to be perfect in order for him to be comfortable with what he was doing.

It comes down to the word stance. Understandably it is taken to mean what it should mean. The problem of course stems from translation from Chinese or Japanese. Like Exile, I believe that once you have learned the correct position of the stance then it is not something you adopt so much as move through. They are supposed to teach correct balance and position while moving.

Exactly my view.

...the trick is not to be deceived into thinking a 'stance' is a static thing.

It sounds a bit 'twee' to express it this way but if stances are rigid rather than fluid then they are limiting rather than enabling.

Again, I think this is exactly right (although I don't know what 'twee' means ). And I believe, by the way, this is what QUI-GON is also saying. If I had to sum it up for an advancing student, I'd say Learn the stances and then learn to move through them.

As my Master in Q-G's Ugly Fu says, If he knows where you are, he can hurt you. What he usually leaves unsaid but demonstrates often is, While you're moving to avoid and confuse (using 'stances' for defense), you should be hurting him (using 'stances' for power on offense).

 

[Tames D]

Exactly my view.

Again, I think this is exactly right (although I don't know what 'twee' means ). And I believe, by the way, this is what QUI-GON is also saying. If I had to sum it up for an advancing student, I'd say Learn the stances and then learn to move through them.

As my Master in Q-G's Ugly Fu says, If he knows where you are, he can hurt you. What he usually leaves unsaid but demonstrates often is, While you're moving to avoid and confuse (using 'stances' for defense), you should be hurting him (using 'stances' for power on offense).

Jeeze KW. I wish I could express my intent the way you do.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I know that this will make me very unpopular and there will be quite a few people that will disagree with me but this is how I feel.

But before you send out the lynch mob let me say that I do believe that proper stances are important and a strong foundation is a major benefit.

As a beginner I learned and 'mastered' proper stance and alignment and then moved on to making sure that I can defend myself regardless of my body position and angle. The last thing I want to do if confronted by someone is to jump into a fighting stance and escalate a problem that isn't necessary. So I feel it's important to be able to fight from a relaxed standing or sitting position (appearing to be non aggresive). I wouldn't want to have to ask my opponent to wait a second while I adjust my fighting stance because my toe's are out of alignment.

Anyway these thoughts came to me while training with a guy in Las Vegas recently. He's a black belt with almost 20 years experience but kept interupting the work out because his "stances were just off a bit".

Just some thoughts I have. Now let the attacks begin.

While I understand your issue of defending yourself and going into a stance that gives away your training, I think stances are important.

In the FMA's I teach, I use normal walking length stance and normal width stance as well. It is not a true walking stance or front stance as some call it, but if you just walk as most people who practice martial arts do, and you measure this, this is the stance I look for and teach. With this stance you can have good balance and use of force in your techniques.

I also understand that stances can isolate a body part and or increase leg strength, or flexibility. I look at this as part of a drill that teaches a concept, and that this will not be exactly what one does for self-defense. Hense my preference to have my stnaces be what I use normally.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Before you even take a horse stance or boxer stance you are in some other stance already! just standing there normal is a ready stance in some arts. Being on your knees in Seiza could be another stance even if it is just sitting. No matter what your doing even typing on a pc you are in a stance. A stance being for that moment a brief period of time until the body transits into another brief moment of another posture. As I was taught stances are not stationary but alive meaning they are transits to understanding bodies movement and should flow usually leading into what ever the circumstance is needed to adjust the body. When you grasp the concept of what a stance is you no longer assume stances they become natural parts of your every movement.

 

[Sukerkin]

Se very good insights and consensus developing here chaps :tup:.

One thing that I forgot to add before was that almost all standing forms on MJER presume that you are walking when you execute the techniques - I suppose that's one reason why I certainly favour the view that 'stances' are fluid and momentary.

 

[terryl965]

I think the fellow you trained with in Las Vegas is a very good example of why so many people are down on stances. He clearly viewed stances as some form of static beast that needed to be perfect in order for him to be comfortable with what he was doing.

It comes down to the word stance. Understandably it is taken to mean what it should mean. The problem of course stems from translation from Chinese or Japanese. Like Exile, I believe that once you have learned the correct position of the stance then it is not something you adopt so much as move through. They are supposed to teach correct balance and position while moving.

I also think that this obsession with perfect stance is a product of forms competition. In such a situation perfect stances are very important but that seems to have translated into combat somehow.

Excellent points.

 

[MJS]

Great thread!

I am certianly in agreement, that stances are the foundation. Considering that the majority of what we do is done from a stance, if the stance is incorrect or weak, whatever it is that we're attempting to do, be it kick, punch or move, will not be as structurally sound.

Throw a punch on a focus mit or heavy bag. The first time, use an incorrect stance. Throw another with correct stance/footwork/body position and see what happens. Big difference.

Mike

 

[Xue Sheng]

The last thing I want to do if confronted by someone is to jump into a fighting stance and escalate a problem that isn't necessary.

You don't take a fighting stance to start that is not why you do stance training. However after it does start, it is a good base to work from. My Xingyi teacher made us do stance training but he also showed us how he would deal with a confrontation and he did not jump into Santi, he actually took, what appeared to be a very non-threatening stance. But from there is attacked what he had learned from stance training came in very handy, very naturally and yet he may still not be in Santi but the work on Santi trained him how to unify his entire body for attack. There is much more to stance training than a ready stance and leg strengthening.

So I feel it's important to be able to fight from a relaxed standing or sitting position (appearing to be non aggresive). I wouldn't want to have to ask my opponent to wait a second while I adjust my fighting stance because my toe's are out of alignment.

This is why you do stance training so you can be relaxed while standing and you train more than one stance. If you have to adjust your stance because your toe is out of alignment then you have not trained it long enough or properly. CMA stance training and martial effectiveness take time, years actually and if you do not want to put in the time then train something that does not require it that is assuming you are training CMA

Anyway these thoughts came to me while training with a guy in Las Vegas recently. He's a black belt with almost 20 years experience but kept interupting the work out because his "stances were just off a bit".

Then he did not train stances long enough or correctly or he did not understand them or a combination of any or all or he did not train them at all.

 

[MJS]

The last thing I want to do if confronted by someone is to jump into a fighting stance and escalate a problem that isn't necessary. So I feel it's important to be able to fight from a relaxed standing or sitting position (appearing to be non aggresive).

I like to begin the majority of my defense from the stance(s) that I'll most likely be in if I was attacked. The majority of the time, I'll begin from a natural standing position. I do understand the concern of escalating by jumping into a stance, however, at the least, I think a slightly bladed stance is a good idea, with hands up and open, palms facing the other person, in a non threatening posture.

I wouldn't want to have to ask my opponent to wait a second while I adjust my fighting stance because my toe's are out of alignment.

Hey, that may work, as the bad guy may look at us and think, "This guy is nuts! I'm outta here!" Seriously though, I see what you're saying. I guess this is why its important to make good use of training sessions...to work out those kinks, so we don't have to think and hopefully things just fall into place.

Mike

 

[pstarr]

Stance is vitally important for two reasons:

1. They provide a stable platform from which you can deliver powerful techniques.

2. They provide a stable platform from which you can move quickly and easily.

A "natural posture" is actually a form of stance and it's important to practice defending yourself from such positions. But there's a right and a wrong way to stand in these "natural" postures.

Without a firm root, your techniques will lose most of their power and speed. As one old karate master once told me, "Stance and stepping is one of the great secrets of karate but nobody practices them anymore..."