Stance training in ancient Shaolin styles

[PhotonGuy]

I read that in the ancient Shaolin styles a student would only learn stances for the first 6 months. They would train in different stances and in transitioning between stances. Only after a good 6 months of stance training would they start to learn techniques. Now days, in most martial arts schools students are learning techniques on their first day, but supposedly in ancient times you wouldn't learn techniques until you developed a good basis in stances.

 

[clfsean]

Yeah ... but it wasn't just "shaolin". It was pretty much the way of things in general. There's a saying "bat ma, bat gung fu" or "no horse, no gung fu". What's the point in having "things to do" if you can't stand strong & not be up rooted easily when you go at something or something comes to you. It leads to "fah sao gam toi" or "flower hands and brocade legs", or useless skills.

But that was then with a different mindset completely.

Nowadays, 99.9% of the MA consumer base wouldn't do it. So things had to change to keep things from dying out completely. Instead they just get watered down.

 

[yak sao]

All of us have heard the old stories of how training was much more difficult in the old days.
Would it have died out completely had training not been altered? How many of us that are training today would be off doing something else entirely had things not been adapted/watered down for the times?
There has been many a time I have wished I could go back to my youth and train my kung fu harder and smarter, but would I even still be training today if it had been so extreme?

 

[Elbowgrease]

There are people who say that things have to be trained for a certain length of time before they can really be learned and used correctly. Two years of static horse stance, then a person might be able to move it correctly, maybe.

 

[clfsean]

Two year static horse training & that's all you'd be able to do. Two years of horse training (static, walking, running, floating) ... then you'd have some serious horse skills to build on.

But all boils down to the same thing... you gotta have a solid foundation to build on. If you have a weak foundation, then nothing on top of it will matter.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xingyiquan baby....

Some of those old school Xingyiquan sifus would make their students stand in Santi shi for a year before training them anything else. Heck my Shigong, had I stayed with my 2nd sifu, said you were not even a beginner unless you could stand in Santi shi for 20 minutes. I have had many conversations with Xingyi teachers from China and all say the same thing, that 30 minutes per day per side is necessary and that their teachers stood in it for at least an hour per day (per side) when they were training

In the old days there was stance training in Taijiquan too and there still is some in certain styles of Baguazhang.

 

[qianfeng]

I think it's just stories people tell to get u to practice stances, I really doubt anyone would do stances for that long without anything else

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think it's just stories people tell to get u to practice stances, I really doubt anyone would do stances for that long without anything else

That isn't all they did, but the stories are true. They usually slapped stone with their hands, at the same time, but you can find pics, of these training areas, with the stone worn down. Maybe they recited prayers the same time, but it wasn't a situation where you could just leave and train at an easier monastery, down the road. LOL

 

[Drose427]

That isn't all they did, but the stories are true. They usually slapped stone with their hands, at the same time, but you can find pics, of these training areas, with the stone worn down. Maybe they recited prayers the same time, but it wasn't a situation where you could just leave and train at an easier monastery, down the road. LOL

Could you imagine living back then and hearing stories of Mc-Monasteries? Lol

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think it's just stories people tell to get u to practice stances, I really doubt anyone would do stances for that long without anything else

You can doubt it of you like, but they did it and so did I..... Its called training...

 

[Elbowgrease]

Aye.
Sit in the horse stance, and
Practice punches, blocks, anything else you're told to do, anything else you can think of. Then move the horse stance and do all of the same things.
Then after a couple of years or so, you can actually use the horse stance and shoot punches with power, and you still train the horse stance.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well if you're teaching MA it would be impractical to teach just stances for the first six months, but Im wondering if it would be a good idea to teach just stances and stance movement on the first day or the first few days.

 

[Tez3]

Well if you're teaching MA it would be impractical to teach just stances for the first six months, but Im wondering if it would be a good idea to teach just stances and stance movement on the first day or the first few days.

Why is impractical to teach stances for the first six months?

 

[Danny T]

Long ago training was, like today, based upon what was the training for, what was the time line for the training, who was being trained, how many were being trained etc.
I trained with a Filipino who as a youngster 6-9 did nothing but stance and footwork drills under his grandfather's tutelage for 3 years. An hour every morning and an hour every evening.
If building a community army that would have to be fighting in the next few months spending the first 3 months doing nothing but stance work or footwork drills would not be a very productive way to spend your training time. I also believe there were a lot of persons as today who have a passing interest in the training and others who were committed to learning.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Long ago training was, like today, based upon what was the training for, what was the time line for the training, who was being trained, how many were being trained etc.
I trained with a Filipino who as a youngster 6-9 did nothing but stance and footwork drills under his grandfather's tutelage for 3 years. An hour every morning and an hour every evening....

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The MMA / boxing audience doesn't understand the foundation being developed here. They decry the 'fixed' stances used by Karate-based fighters in MMA. The real truth is that conventional karate practice probably doesn't emphasize stances enough... everybody leans towards boxing or 'natural' stances when sparring. Randomly pacing around.

 

[ShotoNoob]

double post

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well if you're teaching MA it would be impractical to teach just stances for the first six months, but Im wondering if it would be a good idea to teach just stances and stance movement on the first day or the first few days.

Then don't train it if that is how you feel......

 

[ShotoNoob]

Why is impractical to teach stances for the first six months?

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The question you spoke to is the whole cut & paste mentality in commercial martial arts. Let's learn some nifty, clever, strong punch-dodge and now we are a martial artist. Now we can take-out any challenger because we have learned a better fighting technology that the other guy doesn't know.
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The Art FAIL that others have spoken of....

 

[Xue Sheng]

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The question you spoke to is the whole cut & paste mentality in commercial martial arts. Let's learn some nifty, clever, strong punch-dodge and now we are a martial artist. Now we can take-out any challenger because we have learned a better fighting technology that the other guy doesn't know.
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The Art FAIL that others have spoken of....

And that post makes no sense and it most certainly does not address the question you quoted

 

[ShotoNoob]

And that post makes no sense and it most certainly does not address the question you quoted

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You're jumping on me. I am speaking to the question that you answered with your post. Certainly.