Sport and competition VS. Tae Kwon Do the Art

[terryl965]

Here is a problem that keeps growing over the years, the general public including alot of styles tend to forget about the Art and practical side of Tae Kwon Do. All they seem to focus on is the sportside of TKD, I know that is what gets most of the publicity all the time. Remeber that the old TKD came from roots of Karate and way before the sportside started. I just wish alot of people would agre that there is a difference between them and you can teach both and practice both.

 

[d1jinx]

I agree. You can teach both.

 

[terryl965]

I agree. You can teach both.

Yes I know, the problem is when people see you teaching the sport they just assume you only know that. my god I started TKD back in the late 60's before they really had the sportside down. I jsut wish that people can understand there is more to it than the sport.

 

[dancingalone]

I just wish alot of people would agre that there is a difference between them and you can teach both and practice both.

How many hours in a day does the average person have to practice? How many hours and days does the average school offer? It's one thing to say one can teach and practice both. It's quite another for one's words to become reality.

I'm lucky enough to have developed my martial ability and knowledge long before I had a full-time career and family. It was not uncommon for me to study/practice/review with my teacher or seniors/partners or myself 6-8 hours a day 5-6 days a week. This went on for years until I decided (my finances dwindled) I needed to join the real world and finish my degree and start earning income. It's safe to say I would not have the level of skill or knowledge I have today (please don't think I'm bragging - I'm not) if I had pursued the martial arts an hour a day for 2-3 nights a week as most hobbyists do.

Someone studying to the extent I did MAY be able to learn both traditional and sport methods. In my case, I learned traditional karate and kobudo with some classical jujutsu melded in. It doesn't sound like much, but it really took all that time to develop both the understanding of the art as well as the personal skill to where I'm not ashamed to claim to be a sensei today. Learning sport sparring at the same time would have been a tough additional task to add on.

That's my opinion anyway. There's a difference between dabbling and learning. To learn something requires a lot more hours from both the teacher and the student.

 

[terryl965]

Well lets see I have over forty years in various arts, I currently teach Tae Kwon Do for those looking for more of a S.D. type principle with some of my Okinawa Karate mix in. I also teach the sport side of TKD to those wishing to learn it. I am not saying that people can learn both in a sort time what I am saying is you can learn both. Alot of sport people years ago have grown and learn the Art of sself defense. I always believe you get what you put into it, I have some students that train three hours a day for the sport and still find time to do the art and self defense two or three classes a day. Then I have students like everyone else they show up onc ein a while because they feel guilty about not being here and stay af ew classes and then MIA once again. I guess it comes down to understanding the differences and being able to adjust your lifestyle if you want it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I figure that you can teach both and give the student a more well rounded taekwondo educatiion or you can specialize. Either one is fine.

If you do both, then you produce a student who has the foundation to go on as a traditional practitioner or as an athlete.

If you specialize, you produce well honed students who can either win trophies in the ring really, really well, or students who can defend themselves really, really well.

If you are a generalist, then you will have a larger customer base. If you specialize, you will attract either athletes or traditionalists, depending on which rout you take.

There is merit in both.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

How many hours in a day does the average person have to practice? How many hours and days does the average school offer? It's one thing to say one can teach and practice both. It's quite another for one's words to become reality.

I understand your points (not just the one I quoted) but I have to disagree.

It is all in the approach. I happen to think that sport TKD is great for kids. It develops great kicks, timing, reaction and speed. Most kids will not be able to apply any SD on any adult 70+ pounds their weight anyways so sport is it for them. It is fun and teaches the basic techniques, well.

However after that said kid becomes and adult and his sport career is over (at 26-27), what he learned can easily be translated over into the art or practical use of TKD. The basics are already there and do not have to be taught. These said new adults will have better technique than most and will pick up the traditional rather easy.

Most people starting a MA in there late 20's and above is not doing it for the sport anyways, so teaching them from a tradition stand point is easy. To be good at the sport you have to start young to be on top, and the sport is all about speed and muscle memory. You can have fun yes but to be one of the top sport fighters you have to start young. It is not that hard to teach one vs. the other because of the dynamics of who and what you are teaching.

You start off both in traditional as you still need to teach basics to both. But at some point the paths separate but only for a short time and then the path unites again. The small separation of the path is not enough to make it impossible to teach both. This is why you need multiple classes at some point.

I did not come up in the sport era of TKD but coach and teach it to anyone. But for the adults in my classes it is more traditional than anything as once those young sport fighter stop fighting they can all come and apply their skills to tradition.

In our dojang we have a sport competition class and traditional classes. Everyone is welcome to the traditional classes but only a select few are asked to join our sport competition classes. Also all kids are welcome to go to any local tournament they want. Only the competition students go to national and away event.

 

[dancingalone]

I suppose it depends on what traditional and sport TKD mean to you. To me traditional TKD has a multitude of hand strikes with some throws and pins added in from yudo and what is now called 'hapkido'. To me, it's an entirely different 'game' than what I see in open tournament point sparring or Olympic style sparring.

Sure there's some overlapping between traditional and sport, namely kicking (perhaps stance work too), but even that can be overstated. Many sport schools teach a student to chamber the same way for the front, side, and roundhouse kicks. From a traditional perspective the chambers are different to maximize power and penetration. To me, that's another key difference between the two approaches and it shouldn't be minimized. To me, the two are worlds apart.

 

[ATC]

I suppose it depends on what traditional and sport TKD mean to you. To me traditional TKD has a multitude of hand strikes with some throws and pins added in from yudo and what is now called 'hapkido'. To me, it's an entirely different 'game' than what I see in open tournament point sparring or Olympic style sparring.

Sure there's some overlapping between traditional and sport, namely kicking (perhaps stance work too), but even that can be overstated. Many sport schools teach a student to chamber the same way for the front, side, and roundhouse kicks. From a traditional perspective the chambers are different to maximize power and penetration. To me, that's another key difference between the two approaches and it shouldn't be minimized. To me, the two are worlds apart.

Hapkido is not Taekwondo. Taekwondo has hand and joint manipulation but it is not Hapkido. Now if you happen to have an instructor that is versed in both then you will get a flavor of one vs. the other.

So if you are looking at it from a TKD vs. Hapkido view then yes, I will agree that you do not have time to teach both well.

 

[Manny]

Here is a problem that keeps growing over the years, the general public including alot of styles tend to forget about the Art and practical side of Tae Kwon Do. All they seem to focus on is the sportside of TKD, I know that is what gets most of the publicity all the time. Remeber that the old TKD came from roots of Karate and way before the sportside started. I just wish alot of people would agre that there is a difference between them and you can teach both and practice both.

Sadly the average person only knows the TKD they see in T.V., the olimpic TKD that resembles almost nothing of the traditional TKD. I the other hand senseis of another Martial Arts tend to capitalize this, if I got a buck for every sensei or ma student I've been talking about, They say almost the same... TKD.... Bah!! does not work! only fancy kicks with nothing to do about SD or MA.

Manny

 

[Marginal]

Here is a problem that keeps growing over the years, the general public including alot of styles tend to forget about the Art and practical side of Tae Kwon Do. All they seem to focus on is the sportside of TKD, I know that is what gets most of the publicity all the time. Remeber that the old TKD came from roots of Karate and way before the sportside started. I just wish alot of people would agre that there is a difference between them and you can teach both and practice both.

Honestly, the general public is barely aware that TKD is in the Olympics. It's certainly not shown on TV, or given any attention to suggest that the public has an interest at least. The only folks that really seem to spend a lot of time worrying and fretting about it are armchair MMA fans.

I can understand folks in TKD getting exited over it, and the differences between sport and tradition, but it's a dichotomy that doesn't really exist within the public at large.

 

[dancingalone]

Hapkido is not Taekwondo. Taekwondo has hand and joint manipulation but it is not Hapkido. Now if you happen to have an instructor that is versed in both then you will get a flavor of one vs. the other.

So if you are looking at it from a TKD vs. Hapkido view then yes, I will agree that you do not have time to teach both well.

Yes, I did state 'some throws and pins from yudo and what is now called hapkido'. I did not say a full melding of hapkido and TKD entirely. Still a full hoshinsul practice in the vein I mention is plenty challenging and requires far more body awareness than a pure punch and kick orientation.

I don't think the people on MT will ever agree what traditional TKD comprises and there in is the argument. It seems I believe traditional TKD to be richer in content than you do. I do concede many TKD schools today offer relatively simple curricula, which is a shame.

 

[padre]

I didn't know TKD was even in the Olympics until after I took up TKD, because I gave up on following the Olympics over a decade ago when [I think it was NBC] got their hands on it and worked very hard to make it no fun to watch.

At my school, the emphasis changes on a weekly rotation: [basics & forms] > [sparring with safety gear] > [knowledge & power (& breaking)] > [self defense].

Student age range is from ankle biter to people at least in their 50's.

I've asked a number of people why they come, and not one has mentioned anything about "sport" or "art". I've heard "I did the research, and TKD is the best way to get fit," from a middle-aged professional, "My mom thinks it'll help with my 'bad attitude'," from a 15-year-old, and "I'm addicted," from an Episcopalian priest.

Personally, I love everything but the self-defense, which just doesn't engage my enthusiasm as much so far. I'm crazy about the kicking, the social aspect, the teachers, and the challenge. (And now I have a friendly rivalry with a bud who studies Northern Style Kung Fu.)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes, I did state 'some throws and pins from yudo and what is now called hapkido'. I did not say a full melding of hapkido and TKD entirely. Still a full hoshinsul practice in the vein I mention is plenty challenging and requires far more body awareness than a pure punch and kick orientation.

I don't think the people on MT will ever agree what traditional TKD comprises and there in is the argument. It seems I believe traditional TKD to be richer in content than you do. I do concede many TKD schools today offer relatively simple curricula, which is a shame.

A lot of the reason for that is the Kukkiwon. Their curriculum is relatively simple.

I do not think that this is automatically bad. To a great degree, it allows for greater focus, though it also means that there is less room for lousy practice.

As for what comprises traditional, generally the distinction is a combination of general flavor and an emphasis on poomsae, breaking, and practical use versus XMA poomsae, sport and athletics. In the Kukkiwon, anything beyond that requires one to know what kwan their lineage goes back to. In Chang Hon taekwondo, it all depends on how closely one follows Gen. Choi's teachings.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

I didn't know TKD was even in the Olympics until after I took up TKD, because I gave up on following the Olympics over a decade ago when [I think it was NBC] got their hands on it and worked very hard to make it no fun to watch.

At my school, the emphasis changes on a weekly rotation: [basics & forms] > [sparring with safety gear] > [knowledge & power (& breaking)] > [self defense].

Student age range is from ankle biter to people at least in their 50's.

I've asked a number of people why they come, and not one has mentioned anything about "sport" or "art". I've heard "I did the research, and TKD is the best way to get fit," from a middle-aged professional, "My mom thinks it'll help with my 'bad attitude'," from a 15-year-old, and "I'm addicted," from an Episcopalian priest.

Personally, I love everything but the self-defense, which just doesn't engage my enthusiasm as much so far. I'm crazy about the kicking, the social aspect, the teachers, and the challenge. (And now I have a friendly rivalry with a bud who studies Northern Style Kung Fu.)

Have fun and train with enthusiasm.

 

[dancingalone]

A lot of the reason for that is the Kukkiwon. Their curriculum is relatively simple.

I do not think that this is automatically bad. To a great degree, it allows for greater focus, though it also means that there is less room for lousy practice.

Great for sport, not so great for growing TKD as a martial art.

As for what comprises traditional, generally the distinction is a combination of general flavor and an emphasis on poomsae, breaking, and practical use versus XMA poomsae, sport and athletics. In the Kukkiwon, anything beyond that requires one to know what kwan their lineage goes back to. In Chang Hon taekwondo, it all depends on how closely one follows Gen. Choi's teachings.
Daniel

And there's some who follow curriculum that predate even General Choi.