Spinning Back kicks.

[Touch Of Death]

You need to see a kick coming, in order to grab it. Same can be said of a Punch. Punches are naturally a bit less telegraphic, unless Youre a moron. But if You do see it coming, why not just grab it? Since You can just grab a kick.

I dont disagree that spinning kicks are riskier, but that doesnt make them unreliable. In a fight, the aggressor in an adrenalised, altered emotional state. They could be angry, drunk, high, or just in the mood for some senseless violence, or They could be mugging You, or whatever. In all of those but the last one, They probably wouldnt be caring too much about what You are doing, let alone noticing. Theyre trying to hurt You, not analyse whether or not Youre throwing a punch or kick. If Youre in a situation where the other person isnt charging forward at close range, by all means, back kick.

Laymans terms: If the range is right, and Youre in some *semblance* of a stance, itd probably work fine. Im more worried about being at close range, but being just outside hand-to-hand range, than them grabbing a leg.

The fact that something is risky, does make it less reliable; hence, the risk.

 

[Touch Of Death]

"In theory, there is a defence against every fathomable attack. In theory, a Boxer knows how to successfully block every Punch in Boxing. So why does the Boxer still get hit, in a Boxing Match?" -Me. Though Im sure its been said differently by others.

Actually, you would be surprised at just how boring it can be watching two evenly matched fighters attempt to hit each other for eight rounds.

 

[Tez3]

Uh I don't think referring to a kick with its legitimate name apart from being a back kick is being disrespectful. It's a donkey kick, Ive heard multiple instructurs refer to it as such. Perhaps we are speaking of different kicks. Or do you intend to take offense to calling a horse stance just that?



It was mentioned before that the entire kick takes .2 seconds estimated to deliver. That's a slow kick. I came from WTF originally, and I love MOST of their kicks. This is a kick which while powerful, is useless, at least in my opinion.

People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh.

The not looking leaves one open to a lot of surprises, and it banks too heavily on you having surprise on your side, fanshion, and greater speed. Chances are though, those are fatal assumptions.

I like the donkey kick, but the shotokan reverse side kick allows, for me, far greater versatility to keep attacking.

Don't be obtuse, it wasn't the fact you called it a donkey kick, it was the fact you were disrepectful to WTF people...as you know.
As for the rest...yeah, right, don't forget we've seen you sparring.

 

[Gnarlie]

It was mentioned before that the entire kick takes .2 seconds estimated to deliver. That's a slow kick. I came from WTF originally, and I love MOST of their kicks. This is a kick which while powerful, is useless, at least in my opinion.

People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh.

The not looking leaves one open to a lot of surprises, and it banks too heavily on you having surprise on your side, fanshion, and greater speed. Chances are though, those are fatal assumptions.

I like the donkey kick, but the shotokan reverse side kick allows, for me, far greater versatility to keep attacking.

How long is it since you came from WTF? I think either things have developed since you left, or you didn't ever get back kicked by someone who's developed that kick into a gun. Or both.

If you rely on looking for a turn of the back as a signal, you're hit. It happens at the same time as the kick.

Top level competitors, who train nothing but kicking and countering kicks, all day every day, get caught with this kick often. In comparison Alex, you'd be a sitting duck.

You're entitled to you're opinion, but it's likely to earn you a nasty surprise when you eventually meet a decent full contact kicker.

Gnarlie

 

[Jaeimseu]

We usually don't throw back kick off the line. It's most commonly a counter to your opponents round kick. Not too many surprises from your opponent when they are standing on one leg in mid-kick.

 

[Gnarlie]

We usually don't throw back kick off the line. It's most commonly a counter to your opponents round kick. Not too many surprises from your opponent when they are standing on one leg in mid-kick.

Exactly. People that insist back kick is high risk or can be easily countered by X, Y, Z sequence of techniques are likely 1) using the kick at inappropriate times and / or 2) have never been up against a good back kicker.

One moment you're doing your normal kicking thing, the next you're eating heel. There's very little detectable motion in between, and those that manage to detect it are not in a position to do anything about it because they're on one foot.

Part of the philosophy of Taekwondo is to work with the world while you make your opponent work against it. Back kick is a prime example of that principle in action - it'll catch you off balance, or out of alignment, and there's no chance of a counter.

 

[Gnarlie]

So I was taught that the spinning Back kick is simply a reverse close kneel, look over your shoulder, and kick; however I have also seen them done as a pirouette with the kicking leg cocked high. Which one do you advocate? or do you see them as two useful concepts? un-useful?
Sean

TOD, I just realised I haven't answered your question yet. I advocate back kick with the kicking knee and the toes pointed towards the ground, turning out to a maximum of 45 degrees ish. Turning out further changes the kick into a back side kick, which deterimentally alters the mechanics of the kick, the amount of telegraph movement prior to the kick, the speed of the turn, the muscle groups used and the amount of body weight that can be transferred into the foot.

If the kicking leg is brought through knees together, tight to the standing leg, the speed of the turn is dramatically increased. It's also the straightest path to the target, wasting the least time and energy. If combined with a slide, a slight jump or a counter foot switch, it's even faster.

One can also get more power out of the back muscles and gluteus than the hip flexors and the knee, which would be providing the power in back side kick at the point of contact.

In my view, the high cocked leg is slower and telegraphed. It also invites a nut shot - even if the opponent doesn't really know what they are doing, if they manage to get a kick off, even if it's late, it's guided nicely along the thigh directly to the twig and berries.

So, knee down for me.

 

[Cyriacus]

The fact that something is risky, does make it less reliable; hence, the risk.

Of course - Initially, I did say that I wouldnt use it unless I was already turned sideways a bit. And the range probably isnt too easy to get to. In fact, I prefer spinning backfists, but thats personal preference.

Actually, you would be surprised at just how boring it can be watching two evenly matched fighters attempt to hit each other for eight rounds.

I actually dont watch Boxing very much for that very reason. They do manage to hit each other quite often though, despite Their skill.
I like Boxing, but I prefer other systems and such for entertainment value

 

[Dirty Dog]

It was mentioned before that the entire kick takes .2 seconds estimated to deliver. That's a slow kick. I came from WTF originally, and I love MOST of their kicks. This is a kick which while powerful, is useless, at least in my opinion.

People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh.

And anyone who has seen your videos KNOWS that you're every bit as phenomenal a martial artist as you claim, and that anyone attempting a spinning back kick will probably die instantly when confronted by your fabulousness. You could probably just glare them to death.
Or have your father perform some medical procedure that is unkown to the rest of the worlds medical professionals.

That you think you'd be able to so easily defeat anybody who uses a spinning back kick tells me two things.
1 - You do not know how to properly execute a spinning back kick, much as your ridiculous claim that a rear naked choke could not be used against you.
2 - You're still as ignorant and arrogant as ever.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh.

...

The Hapkido that I learned was mostly defensive (granted that you can turn most defensive moves into offense with little or no modification). However, our back kick was more against an opponent that was already behind us. You must always be prepared for the fact that you may have to fight more than one opponent. We step back for range and power, then kick with what was the back foot.

EDIT: I meant to ask if you could describe you side-knee slap to the thigh. I slap with my palm or back hand. Anything else with the arm/hand is some kind of punch and imply more power. Most strikes with the leg/foot, since the leg/foot should be even more powerful that the arm/hand, simply cannot be well described as a slap, neither from the aspect of power, nor the body part used.

...

Yes, theyd be susceptible to grappling techniques as well, but this is presuming You threw a punch, They grabbed it, then swung Their other arm in. Your first priority would have to be not getting hit, followed by trying to close right in and grab on to something. To be fair though, they could let go with Their right hand, and get You around the neck. Its hard to say, since speed, force, skill, experience, and luck will always be a little bit unpredictable. If They grabbed Your right with Their left, then immediately threw a left leg kick, lets say a stamping like kick to the body or knee depending on the distance, how do you grapple that?

For ankle kicks, Id argue that kicks to the leg in general are hard to avoid. Especially since a leg check is basically acknowledging that, accepting it, and just giving it something a big less damaging to crash into. And if You distract Them with punches or somesuch, They cant block what They cant see coming. That being said, personally i find it easier to put more power into a leg kick around the knee or thigh, and that going as low as the ankle, for Me personally, sacrifices some force.

No need to throw a punch at your opponent first. As I envision what was first described, being grabbed, contact has already been made. Most Hapkido moves seek to prevent the opponent from punching or kicking effectively. He grabs your hand, grab his back and pull. He can't punch with the left hand, and exposes his right side, including his right arm, to counter attack.

From the way you describe your kicking techniques, I suspect if you learned the spinning ankle kick the way I did, it would become a favorite when the opportunity presented itself.

Not that it would be your favorite kick of all time, since I personally don't believe there should be one. You favorite should be the one that best fits defense at the moment. Same with any other technique. But I really think you would like it. It is fast in execution, and quite powerful when it connects.

Pretty much all else you said I agree with. Thanks for the thought out reply.

 

[MJS]

There are many variations practiced. I believe use of them in street vary from person to person. There are people fast enough and with perfect timing which can use it on the street., but I believe one shouldn't rely too much on those tehniques or that they should be given significant meaning in teaching of self defense.

I see two options:

If and only if you are in side position towards your attacker and you have really mastered kicks, reverse side kick to mid section could work; most of street thugs really don't except it and they don't guard themselves. Bad thing is anyone can grab your ankle and twist it, which is not good at all.

If you are attacked by two, you should always keep straight line with them with you on the top, but if you find yourself in the middle, back kick could be useful because it's strong and fast kick behind you back and you don't have to lose focus of attacker in front (but back kick I am talking about actually isn't spinning or reverse). Here again is danger of grab'n'twist, but less because this is non turning kick so it's faster and we can maintain better stability if someone grabs of because of the body position and pull leg out of the grab, which neither isn't the case with side kick.

These are just possible options, that could work, but again I would think twice before using it and thinking twice in self defense isn't good.

IMO, unless the kick is done poorly, I'd find it rather difficult, if not impossible, to actually grab the foot. Now, if you're talking about stepping off line, or up into the kick, depending on the kick thats thrown, capturing the leg, and then working for some sort of takedown, sweep, etc, then yes, that I can see. Otherwise, if the goal is to try and catch the foot to do some sort of fancy lock, then IMO, I can think of better things that could or should be done.

 

[Zenjael]

Nothing like disrespecting others arts. I can do ( as many others can), having been taught to do it properly, a back kick without actually looking at the target behind me and I will connect everytime, it's called technique and learning it properly. People can do techniques differently, it doesn't mean you can slag off someones techniques just because you can't do it, if that was the case you would make very long posts slagging off most if not all techniques.

Well, I meant no disparagement or disrespect to any technique or art. So that being said, if you think it there, you are creating it. I will say this however. I too can alternatively do a reverse kick as you described, and in the tucked form. I prefer the tucked because it allow me to stabilize and not break the sacred rule of taking your eye off the opponent. But you know what? Do the donkey kick. It's powerful, unless you're not looking, they pull a gun and you're donezo.

I think survival, and a lot of WTF kicking, while effective is designed to counteract other WTF kicks, not practical street survival experiences.

There certainly isn't, it's just another weapon in the arsenal. I can also do the other ways described here, it's just knowing what's appropriate for the situation. I rather dislike it when posts say 'so and so' style is rubbish, WTF is not a style I do but all the same a bit more respect wouldn't go amiss, I doubt any style has kicks that they just throw out and hope they hit.

Now its my turn to point something out, if you'll give me the patience. I have trained, and teach WTF tae kwon do, it multiple system; jidokwan, moo duk kwan/tang soo do, and so on. It had it's time and place, but a lot of the kicks in the system are garbage. If you ever let your student defend themself on the street using a snap kick to defend themself anywhere but the chin and groin, a belt should be cut.

Tae kwon do may not have those shoot shoot shoot kicks which miss, but moo duk kwan does. I constantly stress economy to my students; why the heck throw a kick out if its GOING TO MISS. You going to hurt the air? I ask.

But you know what, having had a 3rd, taught at 3 schools, I can tell you exactly which kicks within the MDK system are effective, flash, and garbage. So don't peg me as being arrogantly disrespectful. I know my art.

 

[Cyriacus]

The Hapkido that I learned was mostly defensive (granted that you can turn most defensive moves into offense with little or no modification). However, our back kick was more against an opponent that was already behind us. You must always be prepared for the fact that you may have to fight more than one opponent. We step back for range and power, then kick with what was the back foot.

EDIT: I meant to ask if you could describe you side-knee slap to the thigh. I slap with my palm or back hand. Anything else with the arm/hand is some kind of punch and imply more power. Most strikes with the leg/foot, since the leg/foot should be even more powerful that the arm/hand, simply cannot be well described as a slap, neither from the aspect of power, nor the body part used.

I suspect He was trying to say "Light Contact". Hopefully He doesnt think Hed destroy someones leg if it wasnt.

No need to throw a punch at your opponent first. As I envision what was first described, being grabbed, contact has already been made. Most Hapkido moves seek to prevent the opponent from punching or kicking effectively. He grabs your hand, grab his back and pull. He can't punch with the left hand, and exposes his right side, including his right arm, to counter attack.

Possibly - But He could pull Your hand as well, couldnt He? Exposing Your opposite side, and making it hard to hit back.

From the way you describe your kicking techniques, I suspect if you learned the spinning ankle kick the way I did, it would become a favorite when the opportunity presented itself.

Well, Im also not that good at spinning. Not for lack of trying over time, but with the exception of spinning backfists, I can do them, but I dont like doing them much. Not because I think theyre risky, or anything, I just dont get along with spinning

Not that it would be your favorite kick of all time, since I personally don't believe there should be one. You favorite should be the one that best fits defense at the moment. Same with any other technique. But I really think you would like it. It is fast in execution, and quite powerful when it connects.

Color Me curious...

Pretty much all else you said I agree with. Thanks for the thought out reply.

I enjoy good conversation, particularly about techniques. Its always interesting, if not just to discuss how other people do things differently to how I know how to, or simply prefer to. [/QUOTE]

 

[Cyriacus]

Well, I meant no disparagement or disrespect to any technique or art. So that being said, if you think it there, you are creating it. I will say this however. I too can alternatively do a reverse kick as you described, and in the tucked form. I prefer the tucked because it allow me to stabilize and not break the sacred rule of taking your eye off the opponent. But you know what? Do the donkey kick. It's powerful, unless you're not looking, they pull a gun and you're donezo.

Im morbidly curious. How much of a difference do You seriously think it would make if They pulled the gun whilst You were looking at Them? Your chances are low either way, and regardless of range. And how on earth are they going to produce and fire a gun faster than You can do a back kick?

I think survival, and a lot of WTF kicking, while effective is designed to counteract other WTF kicks, not practical street survival experiences.

Depends on the circumstances, but mostly due to range, sure.

Now its my turn to point something out, if you'll give me the patience. I have trained, and teach WTF tae kwon do, it multiple system; jidokwan, moo duk kwan/tang soo do, and so on. It had it's time and place, but a lot of the kicks in the system are garbage. If you ever let your student defend themself on the street using a snap kick to defend themself anywhere but the chin and groin, a belt should be cut.

Yeah - With the exception of a front kick to the head, snapping Your kicks, I at least, dont like very much. Even for the groin, unless its a distraction. Its not the kicks, its the snap. Kicking through is important for power.

You know, I think that in the whole time that Youve been on MartialTalk, this is the first time Ive actually agreed with something Youve said, without needing to have too many reservations or 'with the exception of's. Heh. In point sparring, however, snap kicks make perfect sense. Which then makes it come down to the teacher to distinguish.

Tae kwon do may not have those shoot shoot shoot kicks which miss, but moo duk kwan does. I constantly stress economy to my students; why the heck throw a kick out if its GOING TO MISS. You going to hurt the air? I ask.

I dont like that either. Wow! Number two in a row

But you know what, having had a 3rd, taught at 3 schools, I can tell you exactly which kicks within the MDK system are effective, flash, and garbage. So don't peg me as being arrogantly disrespectful. I know my art.

And now I get to break the pattern, and say that its apparently Your art among however many others, and that You know definitively all there is to know about the kicks and Their applications and such.

 

[Gnarlie]

Well, I meant no disparagement or disrespect to any technique or art. So that being said, if you think it there, you are creating it. I will say this however. I too can alternatively do a reverse kick as you described, and in the tucked form. I prefer the tucked because it allow me to stabilize and not break the sacred rule of taking your eye off the opponent. But you know what? Do the donkey kick. It's powerful, unless you're not looking, they pull a gun and you're donezo.

I think survival, and a lot of WTF kicking, while effective is designed to counteract other WTF kicks, not practical street survival experiences.



Now its my turn to point something out, if you'll give me the patience. I have trained, and teach WTF tae kwon do, it multiple system; jidokwan, moo duk kwan/tang soo do, and so on. It had it's time and place, but a lot of the kicks in the system are garbage. If you ever let your student defend themself on the street using a snap kick to defend themself anywhere but the chin and groin, a belt should be cut.

Tae kwon do may not have those shoot shoot shoot kicks which miss, but moo duk kwan does. I constantly stress economy to my students; why the heck throw a kick out if its GOING TO MISS. You going to hurt the air? I ask.

But you know what, having had a 3rd, taught at 3 schools, I can tell you exactly which kicks within the MDK system are effective, flash, and garbage. So don't peg me as being arrogantly disrespectful. I know my art.

Yeah it's pretty lazy of you to blame other people for taking umbrage at things you probably should have worded differently in the first place.

It's had it's time and place but a lot of the kicks are garbage? Sounds pretty disrespectful to me.

Only in your fantasy land is somebody pulling a gun in under 0.2 seconds, and only in your fantasy land does it make a difference what kick you might be doing at the time.

I don't think you're in a position to criticise air kicking, I counted quite a few in your little video. As I recall, you spent a lot of your time on one leg waving air kicks, which is just the time when you're likely to get back kicked.

Having a 3rd Dan doesn't mean you know your art, know what you are talking about, or have the right to disrespect an entire portion of the martial arts community. Neither does teaching. I've seen terrible 3rd dans and terrible teachers.

It's how you conduct yourself here and now on this forum that reveals whether or not you know what you are talking about, and I think we can all draw our own conclusions there; but just in case my British indirectness passes you by: you're not a credible source of information in my opinion.

Gnarlie

 

[MJS]

Yeah it's pretty lazy of you to blame other people for taking umbrage at things you probably should have worded differently in the first place.

It's had it's time and place but a lot of the kicks are garbage? Sounds pretty disrespectful to me.

Only in your fantasy land is somebody pulling a gun in under 0.2 seconds, and only in your fantasy land does it make a difference what kick you might be doing at the time.

I don't think you're in a position to criticise air kicking, I counted quite a few in your little video. As I recall, you spent a lot of your time on one leg waving air kicks, which is just the time when you're likely to get back kicked.

Having a 3rd Dan doesn't mean you know your art, know what you are talking about, or have the right to disrespect an entire portion of the martial arts community. Neither does teaching. I've seen terrible 3rd dans and terrible teachers.

It's how you conduct yourself here and now on this forum that reveals whether or not you know what you are talking about, and I think we can all draw our own conclusions there; but just in case my British indirectness passes you by: you're not a credible source of information in my opinion.

Gnarlie

In addition to that, when the heck did we start bringing weapons into this discussion anyways? LOL! I mean, I dont know about anyone else, but anyone attempting a kick against any weapon, is living in a fantasy land. This isn't a Chuck Norris movie! LOL! No disrespect towards Chuck, just sayin'.

And you are correct....the rank that one wears isnt an indicator of skill. Sure, I see how it is assumed that if one is wearing a BB, be it a 1st dan or 8th dan, that said person should know what they're talking about, however, thats not always the case.

 

[Egon]

You need to see a kick coming, in order to grab it. Same can be said of a Punch. Punches are naturally a bit less telegraphic, unless Youre a moron. But if You do see it coming, why not just grab it? Since You can just grab a kick.

I dont disagree that spinning kicks are riskier, but that doesnt make them unreliable. In a fight, the aggressor in an adrenalised, altered emotional state. They could be angry, drunk, high, or just in the mood for some senseless violence, or They could be mugging You, or whatever. In all of those but the last one, They probably wouldnt be caring too much about what You are doing, let alone noticing. Theyre trying to hurt You, not analyse whether or not Youre throwing a punch or kick. If Youre in a situation where the other person isnt charging forward at close range, by all means, back kick.

Laymans terms: If the range is right, and Youre in some *semblance* of a stance, itd probably work fine. Im more worried about being at close range, but being just outside hand-to-hand range, than them grabbing a leg.

Sure they are not unreliable, but I don't think they should be given some siginificant meaning in teaching self defense; but it's meaningless to discuss about it because it really comes to individual will he use it on the street. Anyone should use what works for him - I think spinning wouldn't work for me so.. I just wanted to make point about risk of grabbing while kicking in mid section.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, the way I see a spinning back kick done practically on the street is, lets say a guy comes rushing at you. It really isn't your first instinct to attack him so you do a 180 on him and parry him on by, by using his force against him and, of course, adding your own energy into the mix, ending you in a closed kneel position; however you catch his buddy rushing at you, out of the corner of your eye. Its simply too late to turn the other way; so, you just drill him with a rear kick. Tadahhhh! That was a spinning back kick

 

[Gnarlie]

Well, the way I see a spinning back kick done practically on the street is, lets say a guy comes rushing at you. It really isn't your first instinct to attack him so you do a 180 on him and parry him on by, by using his force against him and, of course, adding your own energy into the mix, ending you in a closed kneel position; however you catch his buddy rushing at you, out of the corner of your eye. Its simply too late to turn the other way; so, you just drill him with a rear kick. Tadahhhh! That was a spinning back kick

If you search for 'Brutal spin kick knockout in street fight' on Youtube, there's a pretty practical (if grisly, look away and turn the sound down if squeamish) example of how it can work live. And the guy isnt even a fast kicker. Surprise and catching a moment of imbalance are key. The poor victim of this kick is surprised, is on one leg as the kick goes in, and doesn't have a chance. You'll have to sign in to confirm your age, it's age restricted!

 

[Egon]

IMO, unless the kick is done poorly, I'd find it rather difficult, if not impossible, to actually grab the foot. Now, if you're talking about stepping off line, or up into the kick, depending on the kick thats thrown, capturing the leg, and then working for some sort of takedown, sweep, etc, then yes, that I can see. Otherwise, if the goal is to try and catch the foot to do some sort of fancy lock, then IMO, I can think of better things that could or should be done.

I don't know did you readed my later posts; but yes; I believe it's easy for a spinning kick to go wrong, many people go wrong while hitting boards, and here we are talking about street which means adrenaline, slippy floor maybe, and other kinds of non friendly for spinning surroundings. Any flow in speed, accuracy, or precision in this kind of defense can be easily punished, and there is a bigger chance of occuring flaws while spinning then in bunch of other tehniques.

After that I said that my experience from training is that from a kick in mid section, grabbing is pretty natural response; and yes even untrained people know how to step in kick and twist it.

I hold spinning kicks are legitimate tool for self defense, but I really don't give significant meaning to them in self defense training (but I must admit after reading this thread, I will try to perform turning side kick in next realistic scenario training).