Spinning Back kicks.

[Touch Of Death]

So I was taught that the spinning Back kick is simply a reverse close kneel, look over your shoulder, and kick; however I have also seen them done as a pirouette with the kicking leg cocked high. Which one do you advocate? or do you see them as two useful concepts? un-useful?
Sean

 

[Sukerkin]

I learned spinning reverse kicks as straight, hook, axe, roundhouse, one-step etc. There are quite a number of variations. Most, if not all, in my opinion, fall into the 'too flash' category; which, as we all know, is a subset of the 'do not use in the Street (TM)' category .

 

[Sensei_Dez]

back kick to me implies a thrusting motion so "reverse close kneel, look over your shoulder, and kick" is what I'd say, that's how I do them, the other spinning versions we give different names(spinning hook kick is one), both are flashy true, but if you set up for them properly they can be useful, that's how you finish someone who's been hit around already, but I personally wouldn't use them in self defense either.

 

[Cyriacus]

I find back kicks useful if Youre already standing side on, mostly with Your front foot. Just pivot, turn, pick up, kick. Other than that, if Youre more squared up, I prefer not.

 

[Egon]

There are many variations practiced. I believe use of them in street vary from person to person. There are people fast enough and with perfect timing which can use it on the street., but I believe one shouldn't rely too much on those tehniques or that they should be given significant meaning in teaching of self defense.

I see two options:

If and only if you are in side position towards your attacker and you have really mastered kicks, reverse side kick to mid section could work; most of street thugs really don't except it and they don't guard themselves. Bad thing is anyone can grab your ankle and twist it, which is not good at all.

If you are attacked by two, you should always keep straight line with them with you on the top, but if you find yourself in the middle, back kick could be useful because it's strong and fast kick behind you back and you don't have to lose focus of attacker in front (but back kick I am talking about actually isn't spinning or reverse). Here again is danger of grab'n'twist, but less because this is non turning kick so it's faster and we can maintain better stability if someone grabs of because of the body position and pull leg out of the grab, which neither isn't the case with side kick.

These are just possible options, that could work, but again I would think twice before using it and thinking twice in self defense isn't good.

 

[crushing]

I think pirouette-style can be pretty and demonstrate graceful flexibility and control as part of a form or kata, but a bit telegraphed when used against an opponent. The more similar you can make techniques appear initially, the more you shorten the reaction time needed for the application of a counter.

To Sukerkin's point, it may not be technique you would use as an attack, but perhaps one that would be useful should you get turned somewhat or out of position. I've been surprised at how close someone can be to an opponent and still tag the opponent in the back of the head with this kick.

 

[MJS]

So I was taught that the spinning Back kick is simply a reverse close kneel, look over your shoulder, and kick; however I have also seen them done as a pirouette with the kicking leg cocked high. Which one do you advocate? or do you see them as two useful concepts? un-useful?
Sean

When I first learned this kick, I did it exactly as you described. However, I'm currently doing them with the leg cocked high, which when thrown, appears to be more of a side kick, however, after being hit with a few of these, they're still effective..lol.

 

[Cyriacus]

There are many variations practiced. I believe use of them in street vary from person to person. There are people fast enough and with perfect timing which can use it on the street., but I believe one shouldn't rely too much on those tehniques or that they should be given significant meaning in teaching of self defense.

I see two options:

If and only if you are in side position towards your attacker and you have really mastered kicks, reverse side kick to mid section could work; most of street thugs really don't except it and they don't guard themselves. Bad thing is anyone can grab your ankle and twist it, which is not good at all.

If you are attacked by two, you should always keep straight line with them with you on the top, but if you find yourself in the middle, back kick could be useful because it's strong and fast kick behind you back and you don't have to lose focus of attacker in front (but back kick I am talking about actually isn't spinning or reverse). Here again is danger of grab'n'twist, but less because this is non turning kick so it's faster and we can maintain better stability if someone grabs of because of the body position and pull leg out of the grab, which neither isn't the case with side kick.

These are just possible options, that could work, but again I would think twice before using it and thinking twice in self defense isn't good.

Thing is, its also not fun having Your Wrist/Forearm seized. Especially if its Your, say, Right Arm, and Their Right did the grabbing. Then Leftie comes right over the top. Having striking limbs grabbed just isnt good for a Striker. Kicking is only riskier in the sense that Youre on one foot. Other than that, the risk is about equal. If someones fast enough to catch a kick, Theyre fast enough to catch a punch. Well, probably.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

One of my friends throw them the second way. It's really effective at first, and hurts, also really quick. However, after a while of sparring, as long as im looking for the kick, i can generally see it coming and avoid it.

 

[Zenjael]

There are a number of ways which employ it. I prefer the methods which keep ones head turned enough to keep an eye on the target. A lot of WTF people have what's called a donkey kick of sorts. They don't look, just pray they hit.

looking also gives more control. Tucking the leg is great if you intend to bring it back forward or to the side to keep on kicking.

 

[Tez3]

There are a number of ways which employ it. I prefer the methods which keep ones head turned enough to keep an eye on the target. A lot of WTF people have what's called a donkey kick of sorts. They don't look, just pray they hit.

looking also gives more control. Tucking the leg is great if you intend to bring it back forward or to the side to keep on kicking.

Nothing like disrespecting others arts. I can do ( as many others can), having been taught to do it properly, a back kick without actually looking at the target behind me and I will connect everytime, it's called technique and learning it properly. People can do techniques differently, it doesn't mean you can slag off someones techniques just because you can't do it, if that was the case you would make very long posts slagging off most if not all techniques.

 

[oftheherd1]

There are many variations practiced. I believe use of them in street vary from person to person. There are people fast enough and with perfect timing which can use it on the street., but I believe one shouldn't rely too much on those tehniques or that they should be given significant meaning in teaching of self defense.

I see two options:

If and only if you are in side position towards your attacker and you have really mastered kicks, reverse side kick to mid section could work; most of street thugs really don't except it and they don't guard themselves. Bad thing is anyone can grab your ankle and twist it, which is not good at all.

If you are attacked by two, you should always keep straight line with them with you on the top, but if you find yourself in the middle, back kick could be useful because it's strong and fast kick behind you back and you don't have to lose focus of attacker in front (but back kick I am talking about actually isn't spinning or reverse). Here again is danger of grab'n'twist, but less because this is non turning kick so it's faster and we can maintain better stability if someone grabs of because of the body position and pull leg out of the grab, which neither isn't the case with side kick.

These are just possible options, that could work, but again I would think twice before using it and thinking twice in self defense isn't good.

In the Hapkido I learned, we had a back kick such as the second you described. It was normally taught as a kick to the neck/head, almost like a mule kick. It can of course, also be used to strike a knee, groin, solar plexus, or head/neck.

We also had two spinning hook kicks. One to the waist area, the other to the opponent's ankle. Inasmuch as they are spinning kicks, they tend to be very fast and powerfull. I doubt the waist kick could be caught, I am quite sure the ankle kick could not be since it is so unexpected, and would require the opponent to reach down awkwardly to try to catch it. The spin kick is most effective with proper technique. Stepping forward to on the toe and pushing off the now back leg into a kick is powerful. However, stepping just forward of the lead foot, with the back foot, then pivoting using both toes and legs, produces much faster spin. That is a dangerous kick to try and grab at the waist. At the ankle, probably impossible. The ankle of the opponent's plant foot is the target of your heel. That will break the opponent's ankle rendering him unable to fight. For the ankle kick, you should fall forward on both hands, putting all concentration and power into the kick, none into balance.

Thing is, its also not fun having Your Wrist/Forearm seized. Especially if its Your, say, Right Arm, and Their Right did the grabbing. Then Leftie comes right over the top. Having striking limbs grabbed just isnt good for a Striker. Kicking is only riskier in the sense that Youre on one foot. Other than that, the risk is about equal. If someones fast enough to catch a kick, Theyre fast enough to catch a punch. Well, probably.

Do you think a kick is usually faster or just more powerful? And if they catch your right hand/wrist with their right hand, would they not be suseptible to grapling techniques? Not trying to be confrontational or 'better,' just curious of your opinion. And of course, all depends on both person's speed and training. If I am good and fast, but your are better and faster, you will make me look like quite a chump.

EDIT: I occurs to me I should point out that I am thinking more along the lines of a non-MA fighter, even good and experienced. MA fighters would be a little different, as you never know what they have been trained in, or against. But I would still say the ankle kick would be very effective, and anyone who could avoid it would be fortunate. Any who disagree, feel free to say so and state why. I am always here to learn. It is one of the things that is nice about MT.

 

[Cyriacus]

Nothing like disrespecting others arts. I can do ( as many others can), having been taught to do it properly, a back kick without actually looking at the target behind me and I will connect everytime, it's called technique and learning it properly. People can do techniques differently, it doesn't mean you can slag off someones techniques just because you can't do it, if that was the case you would make very long posts slagging off most if not all techniques.

If im not mistaken, in not sighting the target, you dont have to turn as far, thereby making the kick fire off faster than if you did. And since it goes straight up and back as if you were kicking something behind you, you wont miss, as long as you were aligned with the target to begin with, and fire the kick straight in and not off to the side.
Theres absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[Tez3]

If im not mistaken, in not sighting the target, you dont have to turn as far, thereby making the kick fire off faster than if you did. And since it goes straight up and back as if you were kicking something behind you, you wont miss, as long as you were aligned with the target to begin with, and fire the kick straight in and not off to the side.
Theres absolutely nothing wrong with it.

There certainly isn't, it's just another weapon in the arsenal. I can also do the other ways described here, it's just knowing what's appropriate for the situation. I rather dislike it when posts say 'so and so' style is rubbish, WTF is not a style I do but all the same a bit more respect wouldn't go amiss, I doubt any style has kicks that they just throw out and hope they hit.

 

[Egon]

Thing is, its also not fun having Your Wrist/Forearm seized. Especially if its Your, say, Right Arm, and Their Right did the grabbing. Then Leftie comes right over the top. Having striking limbs grabbed just isnt good for a Striker. Kicking is only riskier in the sense that Youre on one foot. Other than that, the risk is about equal. If someones fast enough to catch a kick, Theyre fast enough to catch a punch. Well, probably.

I think grabbing a foot while someone tryes to kick you with it in the middle section is pretty natural response. I remember that everytime someone new comes to dojo it's their first defend against that kick. I think it has to be a masterpiece of kick to avoid possibility of grabbing. It's hard to grab while kick is sucesfull, probably resulting in injury, but I believe that any flaws in precision, timing, or speed, could easily be punished with grabbing; and spinning kicks in the street can easily go wrong.

In the Hapkido I learned, we had a back kick such as the second you described. It was normally taught as a kick to the neck/head, almost like a mule kick. It can of course, also be used to strike a knee, groin, solar plexus, or head/neck.

We also had two spinning hook kicks. One to the waist area, the other to the opponent's ankle. Inasmuch as they are spinning kicks, they tend to be very fast and powerfull. I doubt the waist kick could be caught, I am quite sure the ankle kick could not be since it is so unexpected, and would require the opponent to reach down awkwardly to try to catch it. The spin kick is most effective with proper technique. Stepping forward to on the toe and pushing off the now back leg into a kick is powerful. However, stepping just forward of the lead foot, with the back foot, then pivoting using both toes and legs, produces much faster spin. That is a dangerous kick to try and grab at the waist. At the ankle, probably impossible. The ankle of the opponent's plant foot is the target of your heel. That will break the opponent's ankle rendering him unable to fight. For the ankle kick, you should fall forward on both hands, putting all concentration and power into the kick, none into balance.

In my second example, talking about back kick, I was sure that terminology will confuse us, since many call this kick different and many in Hapkido or Taekwondo even doesn't learn it. In back kick as I learned it, you are kicking behind your back while staying full front with your body (upper body goes slightly toward ground), with toes pointed to the ground, foot slightly bended. But it also can be done with with turning / spinning.

Same as I answered to Cyriacus, if those kicks were performed with perfect timing, speed, and precision, it probably would be impossible to grab, but majority of ma's practicioners even when hitting boards don't do those kicks so good, not even talking about street where adrenaline pumps kick in; I believe that grabs are pretty natural response so flaws in kick can be easily punished.

But talking about kicks to mid section; while practicing with many people, I saw that grabbing is response while mid section is attacked, never saw anyone trying to grab kick that goes low or high.

I think grabbing is threat while kicking to mid section, even more then fact that you are on one leg while kicking.

 

[Gnarlie]

There certainly isn't, it's just another weapon in the arsenal. I can also do the other ways described here, it's just knowing what's appropriate for the situation. I rather dislike it when posts say 'so and so' style is rubbish, WTF is not a style I do but all the same a bit more respect wouldn't go amiss, I doubt any style has kicks that they just throw out and hope they hit.

WTF people usually look out of the corner of the eye. Well this one does. And I defy anyone to detect a telegraph of, or catch, a really good practitioners back kick. It's about 0.2 seconds, start to finish. By the time you see it, it's already too late. Even those who can read and anticipate will only have time for a flinch reaction like crossed arms in front of the upper chest.

That said there are multiple ways to skin a cat, and it's doable without looking too.

Gnarlie

 

[Zenjael]

Nothing like disrespecting others arts.

Uh I don't think referring to a kick with its legitimate name apart from being a back kick is being disrespectful. It's a donkey kick, Ive heard multiple instructurs refer to it as such. Perhaps we are speaking of different kicks. Or do you intend to take offense to calling a horse stance just that?

having been taught to do it properly, a back kick without actually looking at the target behind me and I will connect everytime, it's called technique and learning it properly. People can do techniques differently, it doesn't mean you can slag off someones techniques just because you can't do it, if that was the case you would make very long posts slagging off most if not all techniques.

It was mentioned before that the entire kick takes .2 seconds estimated to deliver. That's a slow kick. I came from WTF originally, and I love MOST of their kicks. This is a kick which while powerful, is useless, at least in my opinion.

People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh.

The not looking leaves one open to a lot of surprises, and it banks too heavily on you having surprise on your side, fanshion, and greater speed. Chances are though, those are fatal assumptions.

I like the donkey kick, but the shotokan reverse side kick allows, for me, far greater versatility to keep attacking.

 

[Cyriacus]

Do you think a kick is usually faster or just more powerful? And if they catch your right hand/wrist with their right hand, would they not be suseptible to grapling techniques? Not trying to be confrontational or 'better,' just curious of your opinion. And of course, all depends on both person's speed and training. If I am good and fast, but your are better and faster, you will make me look like quite a chump.

EDIT: I occurs to me I should point out that I am thinking more along the lines of a non-MA fighter, even good and experienced. MA fighters would be a little different, as you never know what they have been trained in, or against. But I would still say the ankle kick would be very effective, and anyone who could avoid it would be fortunate. Any who disagree, feel free to say so and state why. I am always here to learn. It is one of the things that is nice about MT.

Id have to say that it depends. A front, side, or round kick can come in pretty fast. A back kick can also be pretty fast if youre already a bit rotated. Of course it isnt faster, and punching is easier to make non-telegraphic, however, trained or untrained both can be fast enough, particularly since between untrained and especially inexperienced people, kicking doesnt happen all that often in the first place.

Yes, theyd be susceptible to grappling techniques as well, but this is presuming You threw a punch, They grabbed it, then swung Their other arm in. Your first priority would have to be not getting hit, followed by trying to close right in and grab on to something. To be fair though, they could let go with Their right hand, and get You around the neck. Its hard to say, since speed, force, skill, experience, and luck will always be a little bit unpredictable. If They grabbed Your right with Their left, then immediately threw a left leg kick, lets say a stamping like kick to the body or knee depending on the distance, how do you grapple that?

For ankle kicks, Id argue that kicks to the leg in general are hard to avoid. Especially since a leg check is basically acknowledging that, accepting it, and just giving it something a big less damaging to crash into. And if You distract Them with punches or somesuch, They cant block what They cant see coming. That being said, personally i find it easier to put more power into a leg kick around the knee or thigh, and that going as low as the ankle, for Me personally, sacrifices some force.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think grabbing a foot while someone tryes to kick you with it in the middle section is pretty natural response. I remember that everytime someone new comes to dojo it's their first defend against that kick. I think it has to be a masterpiece of kick to avoid possibility of grabbing. It's hard to grab while kick is sucesfull, probably resulting in injury, but I believe that any flaws in precision, timing, or speed, could easily be punished with grabbing; and spinning kicks in the street can easily go wrong.

You need to see a kick coming, in order to grab it. Same can be said of a Punch. Punches are naturally a bit less telegraphic, unless Youre a moron. But if You do see it coming, why not just grab it? Since You can just grab a kick.

I dont disagree that spinning kicks are riskier, but that doesnt make them unreliable. In a fight, the aggressor in an adrenalised, altered emotional state. They could be angry, drunk, high, or just in the mood for some senseless violence, or They could be mugging You, or whatever. In all of those but the last one, They probably wouldnt be caring too much about what You are doing, let alone noticing. Theyre trying to hurt You, not analyse whether or not Youre throwing a punch or kick. If Youre in a situation where the other person isnt charging forward at close range, by all means, back kick.

Laymans terms: If the range is right, and Youre in some *semblance* of a stance, itd probably work fine. Im more worried about being at close range, but being just outside hand-to-hand range, than them grabbing a leg.

 

[Cyriacus]

Uh I don't think referring to a kick with its legitimate name apart from being a back kick is being disrespectful. It's a donkey kick, Ive heard multiple instructurs refer to it as such. Perhaps we are speaking of different kicks. Or do you intend to take offense to calling a horse stance just that?



It was mentioned before that the entire kick takes .2 seconds estimated to deliver. That's a slow kick. I came from WTF originally, and I love MOST of their kicks. This is a kick which while powerful, is useless, at least in my opinion.

People who turn their backs to me, even for a second, will find a heel kick to their hip, back-leg, side, and so on. That's IF I don't pivot around to the outside and go for a side-knee slap to their thigh.

The not looking leaves one open to a lot of surprises, and it banks too heavily on you having surprise on your side, fanshion, and greater speed. Chances are though, those are fatal assumptions.

I like the donkey kick, but the shotokan reverse side kick allows, for me, far greater versatility to keep attacking.

"In theory, there is a defence against every fathomable attack. In theory, a Boxer knows how to successfully block every Punch in Boxing. So why does the Boxer still get hit, in a Boxing Match?" -Me. Though Im sure its been said differently by others.