Speed...

[Han-Mi]

It was just a mistake. I think we all make them. Forgive and forget. Don't you think you were a little harsh about the mind comment? Why attack him? If you stopped to think, it reflects on you more.

And while I'm at it, TOD had made alot of good observations about different posts, I've noticed. Sometimes, he agrees, sometimes puts 2 and 2 together and sometimes disagrees. Just like all of us. Usually not far off the mark in my opinion. I find that he has some good reasoning power that will hold him in good stead as a moderator. TW

I was joking... calm down.

Exact same thing? :idunno: To rephrase it so it seems clearer, I've always beleived that timing is a matter of understanding your opponent's rhythms, their telegraphs and so fourth. You anticipate a punch, so you punch in a way that'll intercept the attack, things like that.

That's not necessarially a matter of strenth or speed. That's being at the right place at the right time, and that's accomplished through strategy and tactics moreso than it is through purely physical means.

I agree, very well put.

 

[TigerWoman]

Hmm... I always thought of timing as a matter of perception and proper application rather than a physical attribute.

timing is an implementation of speed and power

implementation. =carry out, accomplish, to give practical effect to

perception = consciousness, observation

application = an act of putting to use

You know, actually he said it in more succinctly, in one word and you said the same thing in nine words. "give practical effect to" vs "see and put to use" .

TOD didn't say a "combination" of speed and power-?? misquoted. He also doesn't say it is a physical attribute.

Ok, I can see what you are thinking now. You think timing is where one has to "perceive, see and act" and yes I agree with you on that. Its the whole ball of wax. You have to know what's going on to act. But timing is also getting your "reaction kick" in there at the right moment. That reaction has to be perceived before, so the resulting movement can happen and it has to be fast. Because if it is too slow, the timing is off and you will miss the opportunity. So if implementation means to carry out, give practical effect to, some thinking has to be done in advance, perception, for anything to be implemented. But for it to be fast, there also has to be speed and power.

So timing is perception AND the implementation of speed and power. He just left out a word that was understood to be there. Like... (you) Go get that ball.

So, yeah, I still think you said the same thing. But thanks, now I think I understand you better. Hopefully ... peace? :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Timing encompases both the physical and the perceptual. If your instructor tells you to keep your elbows down because it looks like your trying to fly rather than punch, you will notice that anchoring your elbows alters the timing of your motion sequences whether someone is there to percieve it or not; hence, your punches got a bit faster.
There are three types of speed: mental, physical, and perceptual. Believe me they play off eachother, and working on the three developes timing.
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

Timing encompases both the physical and the perceptual. If your instructor tells you to keep your elbows down because it looks like your trying to fly rather than punch, you will notice that anchoring your elbows alters the timing of your motion sequences whether someone is there to percieve it or not; hence, your punches got a bit faster.
There are three types of speed: mental, physical, and perceptual. Believe me they play off eachother, and working on the three developes timing.
Sean

That was pretty good. Three types of speed, they all interrelate too. I'll have to remember that. I have to work on that, remembering stuff when I need it..and that's not done at the speed of light either, these days.Not good to get old. :uhyeah:

 

[Marginal]

implementation. =carry out, accomplish, to give practical effect to

Yes, I know what implimentation means. However, you can do all of what ToD described while kicking air. You produce an attack that's sound technichally, but that's not something that carries over to proper application automatically. Therefore, timing is not a part of the equation ToD posting IMO.

TOD didn't say a "combination" of speed and power-?? misquoted. He also doesn't say it is a physical attribute.

Nor did I say it was entirely mental. I said it was more mental than physical. There's a difference there.

Ok, I can see what you are thinking now. You think timing is where one has to "perceive, see and act" and yes I agree with you on that.

I think timing is where one has to plan, anticipate and act accordingly from there. Reactionary fighting means that you've given up initiative, which means you've given the opponent the advantage.

Its the whole ball of wax. You have to know what's going on to act. But timing is also getting your "reaction kick" in there at the right moment.

Yes, but that's not a matter of speed. That's a matter of knowing when your kick needs to be where it's going. You can't do that on reaction. You can via anticipation. You don't even need to be especially zippy.

So if implementation means to carry out, give practical effect to, some thinking has to be done in advance, perception, for anything to be implemented. But for it to be fast, there also has to be speed and power.

For it to be fast, it simply has to be fast. For it to be strong, it has to have speed and power. For it to connect and become effective, it needs timing.

So timing is perception AND the implementation of speed and power. He just left out a word that was understood to be there. Like... (you) Go get that ball.

No. That's not what was said at all. "Mass times velocity equals power; therfore, timing is not better than speed and power, it is an implimentation of speed and power, or dare I say part of speed and power."

Only problem with that is that timing's not an aspect of speed or power. Timing makes speed and power relevant. Don't need timing in the least to break a board for example.

Proper timing can make superior speed and power irrelevant. One is not automatically bourne from the other.

So, yeah, I still think you said the same thing. But thanks, now I think I understand you better. Hopefully ... peace? :asian:

I'm just disagreeing with you. There's also a difference between that and needing to sue for peace.

 

[TigerWoman]

I was joking... calm down.

I'm not excited believe me. Joke<Humility

 

[Touch Of Death]

Only problem with that is that timing's not an aspect of speed or power. Timing makes speed and power relevant. Don't need timing in the least to break a board for example.

Suprise, Suprise, Suprise! I disagree. I suppose you don't need timing to break a board if you were using a sledge hammer, but the human body needs timing to relax and tense at the proper moment for striking; not to mention Timing the drop of your shoulder before the drop of your hand or you cause internal rotator cuff damage. As for kicking a board, wouldn't you need to time acheiving balance with the lifting of your leg? Other wise wouldn't you simply fall down? I'm refering of course to personal timing of your own body mechanics. :asian:
Sean

 

[TigerWoman]

Okay, we are going round and round. Too confusing.

I really am not trying to defend what someone said or not, or argue pointlessly. What I would like to get is a summary of what we are all talking about. If there's an expert in martial arts physics out there lets hear from you!

To summarize-try anyway:

Mental conditioning aids speed, (elbows in, weight on right foot etc.).

Perception is what we think or perceive to do whether its offense, plan for an attack; or defense, react to the opponent movement or opening.
Fast thinking or speed in thinking is needed for defense or offense. Speed in thinking is decidiing when, where, how to attack/react.

Timing is that decision, it comes from mental speed and is used as a tool with "physical" speed. ie throwing the kick with speed or velocity NOW.

So I may be agreeing with both of you, none of you or one of you but you both contributed to my thinking. I ready for a debate in class. NOT.
Anyway I'm WAY done on this subject. Cheers!

 

[Marginal]

Suprise, Suprise, Suprise! I disagree. I suppose you don't need timing to break a board if you were using a sledge hammer, but the human body needs timing to relax and tense at the proper moment for striking; not to mention Timing the drop of your shoulder before the drop of your hand or you cause internal rotator cuff damage. As for kicking a board, wouldn't you need to time acheiving balance with the lifting of your leg? Other wise wouldn't you simply fall down? I'm refering of course to personal timing of your own body mechanics. :asian:
Sean

Which is IMO just a semantical game rather than an issue of timing as the term's normally used in the given context. :asian:

Tigerwoman, I'm not sure if this is an issue of physics generally. A lot of people like to bandy physics about, but few really understand the principles better than as an analogy for way to kick harder. There are aspects, like someone on one leg or simply, attacking being committed to that particular movement and directional vector, making it harder for them to defend against a counter strike at that particular moment etc (which I'd be more inclined to term "timing" rather than the ability to stand, walk, or pick one leg up off the ground since the former actually demonstrates some level of MA skill being demonstrated...) :boing2:

Mental conditioning aids speed, (elbows in, weight on right foot etc.).

To be picky (playing to my strengths I realize) I'd call that physical/technical training. Elbows in isn't a mental trick. It's a mechanically superior way to punch. More efficient, therefore more powerful, faster etc. Same with weight on back foot. There are sound biomechanical reasons for adopting that stance as well. If it lends you confidence, I suppose that'd kinda count as an aspect of mental training...

 

[loki09789]

In Kenpo/Arnis training, I learned to look at speed in three ways:

1. Mechanical speed (punches are mechanically faster than kicks because they cover less distance, and have less mass to move)

2. Muscular speed (fast twitch muscles, either through muscle development or genetics)

3. Reactionarly speed (sometimes called perception or read and react speed)

Which of these three areas do you think are the weak link in your speed chain? There are specific things that can be done to help enhance all three.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Which is IMO just a semantical game rather than an issue of timing as the term's normally used in the given context. :asian:

...

In that case wouldn't timing be the basic rythm of you motion is forms and fighting. Its not traditionaly the concept of looking for an in, its changing your rythm to give you an in based on his rythm. :asian:
Sean

 

[LIONHEART]

Hey all, off the topic of which is better between speed and timing( Ifeel both to be important but hey thats just me ),

Here is a basic but potent tip for increasing speed, get the inner tube of a bicycle tire hold one end in your hand and put your foot throught, now perform you kicks about 10 times with each leg everyday, now your kicks have resistance, this resistance trainging will build the speed you require.

Yours in MA LIONHEART

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hey all, off the topic of which is better between speed and timing( Ifeel both to be important but hey thats just me ),

Here is a basic but potent tip for increasing speed, get the inner tube of a bicycle tire hold one end in your hand and put your foot throught, now perform you kicks about 10 times with each leg everyday, now your kicks have resistance, this resistance trainging will build the speed you require.

Yours in MA LIONHEART

Thats a slow twitch exercise.
sean

 

[Marginal]

In that case wouldn't timing be the basic rythm of you motion is forms and fighting. Its not traditionaly the concept of looking for an in, its changing your rythm to give you an in based on his rythm.

Urk. That smiley...

Anyway, that's closer to what I'm thinking about. Still woudln't ever call that one in the same with the purely mechanical motion of kicking a board alone.