"Speed" in Japanese and/or Okinawan karate

[JR 137]

That 'vision' thing could be technique. It can be learned and practiced. The first thing I've noticed about those guys is they're not looking me in the eyes...

I think part of it is technique - them not giving you many options and forcing you to choose from very few things.

Part of it is purely experience - having seen things many times over and know what’s likely to come.

But there’s also something that’s, I guess, instinctual? It can really be taught. In wrestling we called it “mat sense.” There are people who see things and just flat out “get it.” Not just in MA and sports, but in every field. Some people look at an instrument and get it. Some look at math and it just makes sense. Some look at fields of science, machinery, literature, et al and it just makes sense to them. Sure they’ve got to work at it and hone their skill/craft, but they excel where others who’ve put in the same work reach a certain level and stagnate, so to speak. I’m not talking about physical talent where people are above others, but the others can catch up by working harder; I’m talking about someone who just truly knows their craft.

The woman I spoke of in a previous post is well over 300 lbs. she’s strong as an ox, but she’s not fast nor mobile. I throw a punch, and I’m easily tagged 3 times before I’m done with my punch. And she’ll be just out of range, and I’ll be in a defenseless position. And she barely moved. And I’ve got pretty quick hands. It’s a great thing that she doesn’t put her power into it when she hit, because I’d easily be doubled over by a combination of where she hit me, how many times she hit me, and her shear power. I’ve seen her hit someone who got carried away; trust me it wasn’t good. And it could’ve been so much worse.

I see her sparring with other people, so I know it’s not that I’m bad and think she’s better than she really is. She’s the type of person that could do pretty much whatever she wants at any point. I’ve seen those people in every sport. Those people that are just on another level and can seemingly do whatever they want whenever they want to. I coached a wrestler a few years back like that. Up until the state semifinals, there was never a point in any match that he wasn’t in full control of what was going on. He was a pretty good athlete, but from a strength and athleticism standpoint he had no business beating quite a few people he easily disposed of. He had that vision. He was always a step ahead of the opponent. I don’t know how else to put it into words.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Trust is built based on results, positive and negative.

I've had people say I'm fast when I spar. I'm not. I'm actually quite slow. And most of the fast people in my dojo are much too fast for me. Usually I don't need to be fast, I'm prepared.

Agreed. I do think some folks, however, trust that process more than most of us would, and that trust makes their reaction a bit faster. That, of course, validates the trust and continues the cycle.

 

[JR 137]

I was at the Basketball Hall of Fame today, and Muggsy Bogues was there. He had a sit-down interview with a guy in front of the audience. At the end, some kids were chosen at random to ask 1 question each.

One of the kids, about 10 years old, asked the best question:
“You were one of the best passers ever in the NBA. What drills can I do to be a better passer?”

And a lot of people probably didn’t like the answer, as it probably wasn’t what they thought he was going to say:
“Being a great passer isn’t really about any specific drills. It’s about seeing things before they happen. It’s about seeing where your teammates are going to go, and seeing what the defense is going to do before they do it.” He went on a little more, but it was reinforcing his point.

And that’s what I was trying to say about being “fast” as a MAist. Having fast hands and feet is great and all, but seeing what’s going to happen before it actually happens is going to make you that elite fighter. Getting to the right spot at the right time to avoid getting hit and being able to hit is pretty easy if you know exactly what’s going to come at you before it actually does.

For those of you that don’t know Muggsy Bogues, he was (and possibly still is) the NBA all-time assist to turnover ratio leader. He played 13 seasons in the NBA as a point guard and had a great career, mostly with the Charlotte Hornets. And on paper, he had no business playing in the NBA - he was listed at 5’3” and 135 lbs. Easily one of my favorite guys to watch play.

 

[Danny T]

Speed, strength, and technique are great and all, but IMO something trumps them all: vision (for lack of a better word, and not from an acuity sense). If you can see things unfold early, you can react early. Ever spar with one of those people who seemed to know what you were going to do before you knew what you were going to do? That’s what I mean by having great vision. I hate sparring with those guys. And I love sparring with those guys. Everything I throw gets countered by those guys before I’m done throwing it. There’s a woman at my dojo who’s one of the best fighters I’ve ever been around. She’s not very fast, to say the least. But she sees the kick or punch coming and the opening its left and my punch is deflected and I’m hit 2-3 times before I’ve followed through with the initial punch. She doesn’t hit me like that because of hand speed. It’s her “vision.” Someone who’s got average speed and power is going to hurt you if they see the fight right.

All IMO.

Vision is great and a excellent asset...However, there comes a time when even with great vision one may no longer have the attributes of explosiveness, acceleration, and speed to get there before the opponent does. I'm running into this almost daily now. Age & injuries have reduced many attributes my younger self had. I see the movement and know where they are going, what is being thrown, what angle it's coming from. I instinctively know where I need to be and what to counter with however often now I'm simple too slow getting there. It's not a timing thing, it's a you've gotten old and slow thing.

 

[JR 137]

Vision is great and a excellent asset...However, there comes a time when even with great vision one may no longer have the attributes of explosiveness, acceleration, and speed to get there before the opponent does. I'm running into this almost daily now. Age & injuries have reduced many attributes my younger self had. I see the movement and know where they are going, what is being thrown, what angle it's coming from. I instinctively know where I need to be and what to counter with however often now I'm simple too slow getting there. It's not a timing thing, it's a you've gotten old and slow thing.

I’d “like” your post, but would that imply that I like the fact you’ve gotten older and slower?

I completely understand what you’re saying and completely agree. If you’re too deficient in any one area, nothing is going to make up for it.

 

[Danny T]

I’d “like” your post, but would that imply that I like the fact you’ve gotten older and slower?

I completely understand what you’re saying and completely agree. If you’re too deficient in any one area, nothing is going to make up for it.

And It Sucks!

 

[jobo]

Vision is great and a excellent asset...However, there comes a time when even with great vision one may no longer have the attributes of explosiveness, acceleration, and speed to get there before the opponent does. I'm running into this almost daily now. Age & injuries have reduced many attributes my younger self had. I see the movement and know where they are going, what is being thrown, what angle it's coming from. I instinctively know where I need to be and what to counter with however often now I'm simple too slow getting there. It's not a timing thing, it's a you've gotten old and slow thing.

iv faced the old age thing, and whilst a fall off is inescapable, how much of a fall off is inevitable is much open to debate, my solution to it is to train harder than my younger self did , with emphasis on the speed of movement and reactions, which my younger self didn't have to worry about,which so far has limited it somewhat

 

[Buka]

Michael Jordan is my default example. Like Gretzky, he wasn’t the fastest and most physically gifted guy. He was above average, but there were plenty of better athletes when he played. But he always seemed to be a step ahead of everyone else. Everyone remembers those spectacular dunks and jump shots where he shook off two guys right in front of him. He did that by seeing what was going on and taking advantage of every little opening he was given. It was like he had ESP and knew what was going to happen before it actually happened.

I think that’s what truly separates the elite from the rest. They see what’s going on and somehow consistently anticipate things right. They’re seeing the tells, cues, etc. and reacting. If you know exactly what’s coming and where, it makes getting into the right place and countering a hell of a lot easier.

I’m not saying I’ve sparred with MAists on Jordan and Gretzky’s level. Not even close. But the people I have in mind that I have sparred with have that trait of being able to easily read what I’m doing and take full advantage. And they’re not particularly gifted with purely physical attributes. And they didn’t sit there and study my movement before they sparred me.

I wish I had that ability. I keep trying

I think an ever better example is Larry Bird. Slowest running guy of his era, had a vertical leap of about an inch and a half. Yet, a fricken' assassin of epic proportions.

 

[JR 137]

I think an ever better example is Larry Bird. Slowest running guy of his era, had a vertical leap of about an inch and a half. Yet, a fricken' assassin of epic proportions.

Kevin McHale wasn’t exactly a physical specimen by any means, too. Talk about an awkward guy. But one hell of a big man.

 

[Gweilo]

iv faced the old age thing, and whilst a fall off is inescapable, how much of a fall off is inevitable is much open to debate, my solution to it is to train harder than my younger self did , with emphasis on the speed of movement and reactions, which my younger self didn't have to worry about,which so far has limited it somewhat

There is a time when working harder was the key, but when you reach a certain age, it's about working smarter, understanding you strengths, this is when philosophy and biomechanics are key

 

[jobo]

There is a time when working harder was the key, but when you reach a certain age, it's about working smarter, understanding you strengths, this is when philosophy and biomechanics are key

well my philosophy ? is, unless you are extremely ( Olympics)fit, you can be fitter, that takes hard work no matter what age you are, the trick with fitness in " middl age" is to gain fitness faster than you are loosing it, which takes harder work the main problem with doing that is you think like an old man, so you act and train like an old man, so you are an " old man" with the results you get

my contempories consider me a genetic freak as they try a ( very ) few pull ups and I spin round and round the bar,and finish with a back lever its purely application that makes the difference, I'm out doing that in the rain when there in the warm watching telly


or to sum it up. at any age, if you want to be athletic, train like an athelete

 

[Gweilo]

Yes I am sure you are a genetic freak, but I am not talking about putting the warm telly watchers in their place, I am talking about making yourself the best you can be now, forgetting core strength, that is a given at middle age or any age, what I am talking about, is tailoring your fitness ragime to your capabilities. I am not talking about, if you are physically incapable of performing a roundhouse, followed by a turning back kick, followed by a low spinning back kick, you should keep trying at 50 years old, but to adapt your training to to what you are capable of

 

[Buka]

Kevin McHale wasn’t exactly a physical specimen by any means, too. Talk about an awkward guy. But one hell of a big man.

Two of the best. And if you haven't seen this....it's pretty cool. The whole interview is much longer.

I love both those guys, went to a lot of games to watch them. My buddy owned a sports bar across from the old Boston Garden. I tended bar at lunch times to support my Martial habit. Used to go watch early practices because I knew a lot of people at the garden.

But you know....as good as Bird, McHale, Jordan, Labron or any other player was, none could hold a candle to Bill Russell. He was better than all of them.

 

[jobo]

Yes I am sure you are a genetic freak, but I am not talking about putting the warm telly watchers in their place, I am talking about making yourself the best you can be now, forgetting core strength, that is a given at middle age or any age, what I am talking about, is tailoring your fitness ragime to your capabilities. I am not talking about, if you are physically incapable of performing a roundhouse, followed by a turning back kick, followed by a low spinning back kick, you should keep trying at 50 years old, but to adapt your training to to what you are capable of

but what your capable of is determined by your training or lack of it .as soon as you decided the upper limits of what you can achieve and scale the training to suit, then you've limited your own level, you will clearly never go above it. because your not training hard enough.

this is just nearly every middle-aged man making excuses, excuses that have nothing to do with what therebody is capable of and everything to do with have an old man's state of mind

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but what your capable of is determined by your training or lack of it .as soon as you decided the upper limits of what you can achieve and scale the training to suit, then you've limited your own level, you will clearly never go above it. because your not training hard enough.

this is just nearly every middle-aged man making excuses, excuses that have nothing to do with what therebody is capable of and everything to do with have an old man's state of mind

In some cases, they know some actual limits, because of what causes pain and injury when they do it. In other cases, they are (as you say) stopping themselves short because of what they believe they can't do.

 

[jobo]

In some cases, they know some actual limits, because of what causes pain and injury when they do it. In other cases, they are (as you say) stopping themselves short because of what they believe they can't do.

I don't really want another discussion about your knees, but yes, people of all ages are limited, its rather if you've actually reach that limit.

the fall of performance between elite level athletes, in there 20s and those in there 50/ 60 is about 25%, which is a lot of your racing one, but opens up a world of possibility for 50 to on what can be achieved

 

[dvcochran]

Speed is excellent, when used in the right context, unfortunately speed can make some people delusional. See what I mean in the following FB link

A Idz Pan W Cholere

I believe that was more awareness and timing. The showboat never saw the punch coming.

 

[dvcochran]

That 'vision' thing could be technique. It can be learned and practiced. The first thing I've noticed about those guys is they're not looking me in the eyes...

Agree, but like Jordan, a lot of it is God given. It cannot be learned. It can be refined.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Agree, but like Jordan, a lot of it is God given. It cannot be learned. It can be refined.

You can't change your genetics. You can hone what you do have. I refuse to give an inch to others because they have gifts I do not, so I shouldn't try anymore. On the contrary, I will try harder.

 

[dvcochran]

Agree. Part of what drove me when I was competing was knowing there were others who were faster, quicker, stronger than me. It took time but most were not better at the chess match than me.