OK, that has the ring of truth... requires a bit of initiative, is the only problem!
Speaking Negatively About The Arts
- Thread starter MJS
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OK, that has the ring of truth... requires a bit of initiative, is the only problem!
In my opinion, I think that the "art bashing" comes down to one thing...Human Nature. We all want to be the best or involved in the best - but as stated above, in order to make ourselves the best, we first have to break down all others. Most people rise above this and can accept the limitations of their style, art, whatever. But it is all focused on believing that your art is better in some way. Because honestly, if you do not think that your art is better, then you have no reason to put down anyone else.
In the end, I agree - it all comes down to "do what works." If you ever have to actually apply this stuff....you are going to go with instincts and just do what works - hopefully whatever style you have chosen to train in will prepare you to better respond to attacks.
In the end, I agree - it all comes down to "do what works." If you ever have to actually apply this stuff....you are going to go with instincts and just do what works - hopefully whatever style you have chosen to train in will prepare you to better respond to attacks.
KempoGuy06
Grandmaster
This is true!! I guess this is what leads to the a) Superman mentality and b) the folks the run around saying certain arts suck. Oddly enough though, why is it that there are people out there that acknowledge the fact that arts are limited?
Mike
Yes, thats correct, same thing, different application. How the person applies the stuff is the question.
Thank you!! How many times do we see people running around with the mentality that because Royce makes something work, they will be able to make it work too.
I didn't read thru the thread, but it sounds like people basing their opinions on the art, rather than the fighters.
Another great point! It is a waste of time. Yet, how many people do we see that make this their focus? Quite a few.
Agreed.
CuongNhuka
Senior Master
it's caused by two things: ignorence and ego
tellner
Senior Master
Unfortunately, sometimes it really is deserved. Claims of miraculous powers, out and out lies about history or efficacy, preying on students, unethical business practices, criminal acts, other shameful behavior and misrepresenting what one does are common as hell. On one hand it's a religious obligation for some of us (Jews and Muslims in particular) to refrain from saying bad things about people even or especially when it's true. On the other hand it's also bad to let evil go uncommented on and the innocent unwarned.
Everyone in my book starts out with a good deal of respect with a large dollop of courtesy on top. It's possible to exhaust it.
I had an illustrative experience a little while back. A good friend had been travelling in Asia where he trains and has a lot of contacts. A guy who we know was along on the trip and managed to hijack stuff that he'd ordered, drag his name through the mud with my friend's old friends and try to charge him a hell of a lot of money for all of it. Others, whom my friends thought were straight with him, knew and didn't say anything out of "respect". When my friend called us our reaction was "Damn. He was there? If we'd known that guy was going along we'd have warned you. He's always been a scammer. Do business with him and you'll get screwed without even getting kissed." The guy had forfeited the right to respect and deserved to be exposed. That includes his martial arts history which contains several out and out lies and damages the reputations of people with whom he associates himself.
And sometimes a martial system will claim strengths or things that it doesn't have. Not to pick on one art too much but I've seen dozens, maybe hundreds, of schools which advertise: "Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do, Judo, Self Defense, Weapons". What they really teach is straight WTF TKD. "Judo" and "Hap Ki Do" consist of a few throws and wrist locks demonstrated very infrequently and barely integrated into the curriculum. Weapons means a (usually badly done) form or two. Self defense is anyone's guess. If someone is considering one of these establishments on the basis of the Hapkido, Judo, and self defense there's no sin in saying "That's what the sign says. That's what the teacher says. That's not what you're going to get."
To take another example, someone came to the JKD school my wife used to attend in the Twin Cities. He said that another teacher he had investigated - whose name and system shall remain nameless - had said "Study with me and I will teach you the Secrets of the Universe," and demanded to be called "Assistant Regional Head Instructor, sir!" Now, our witness wasn't experienced in martial arts. But he had grown up on a dairy farm in Wisconsin and recognized cow flops when he smelled them. I can't see any reason not to tell people the truth when they ask about that school, its founder, its business practices (and who has served time in prison for them) or its inflated claims. For the record, the teacher at the JKD gym normally has trouble saying "****!" if he has a mouthful of it. Wonderful guy. He tried manfully to be polite.
As Chris Rock says "As you go through life remember one thing. No matter what a stripper tells you there's no sex in the Champagne Room."
Everyone in my book starts out with a good deal of respect with a large dollop of courtesy on top. It's possible to exhaust it.
I had an illustrative experience a little while back. A good friend had been travelling in Asia where he trains and has a lot of contacts. A guy who we know was along on the trip and managed to hijack stuff that he'd ordered, drag his name through the mud with my friend's old friends and try to charge him a hell of a lot of money for all of it. Others, whom my friends thought were straight with him, knew and didn't say anything out of "respect". When my friend called us our reaction was "Damn. He was there? If we'd known that guy was going along we'd have warned you. He's always been a scammer. Do business with him and you'll get screwed without even getting kissed." The guy had forfeited the right to respect and deserved to be exposed. That includes his martial arts history which contains several out and out lies and damages the reputations of people with whom he associates himself.
And sometimes a martial system will claim strengths or things that it doesn't have. Not to pick on one art too much but I've seen dozens, maybe hundreds, of schools which advertise: "Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do, Judo, Self Defense, Weapons". What they really teach is straight WTF TKD. "Judo" and "Hap Ki Do" consist of a few throws and wrist locks demonstrated very infrequently and barely integrated into the curriculum. Weapons means a (usually badly done) form or two. Self defense is anyone's guess. If someone is considering one of these establishments on the basis of the Hapkido, Judo, and self defense there's no sin in saying "That's what the sign says. That's what the teacher says. That's not what you're going to get."
To take another example, someone came to the JKD school my wife used to attend in the Twin Cities. He said that another teacher he had investigated - whose name and system shall remain nameless - had said "Study with me and I will teach you the Secrets of the Universe," and demanded to be called "Assistant Regional Head Instructor, sir!" Now, our witness wasn't experienced in martial arts. But he had grown up on a dairy farm in Wisconsin and recognized cow flops when he smelled them. I can't see any reason not to tell people the truth when they ask about that school, its founder, its business practices (and who has served time in prison for them) or its inflated claims. For the record, the teacher at the JKD gym normally has trouble saying "****!" if he has a mouthful of it. Wonderful guy. He tried manfully to be polite.
As Chris Rock says "As you go through life remember one thing. No matter what a stripper tells you there's no sex in the Champagne Room."
I don't know what you mean about negativity! It's simple - my art is best and all yours is rubbish! There! as a little person I have now thumbed my nose at everyone else and made myself feel tall!! Well at least two feet tall! Of course I would only utter this wisdom on a forum from behind a computer and hopefully anonymously.
"Because sometimes the only way to feel good about yourself is by making someone else feel bad."
Homer Simpson (cheers CoryKS for posting that)
This is so true! I don't know if my art has all the answers, I doubt it but it is true that I don't do my art justice. I'm interested in all martial arts even if they are impossible for me to do, (capoiera for one!) and I have respect for anyone who does any style or art. The problem of course is people being people!
"Because sometimes the only way to feel good about yourself is by making someone else feel bad."
Homer Simpson (cheers CoryKS for posting that)
This is so true! I don't know if my art has all the answers, I doubt it but it is true that I don't do my art justice. I'm interested in all martial arts even if they are impossible for me to do, (capoiera for one!) and I have respect for anyone who does any style or art. The problem of course is people being people!
kidswarrior
Senior Master
:lfao:
So many good posts in this thread :tup:.
All of you deserve a good rep buffing (ooh er, nurse!) but noone has yet mentioned one of the truisms of martial arts (of the non-blended from the start variety) viz that the more experienced the practitioner becomes then the more he/she realises that what is practised is much more similar to other arts than you might imagine (at the start).
I'm sure we've all had discourses with people from other arts where after a while, covering the ground of such cliches of "Oh, karate is an iron bar and kung fu is a chain", you discuss fundamentals and realise that what you call "xyz", the other person cals "zyx" but its the same thing.
My iaido sensei is also a karate 6th dan and has more years in martial arts than I have been alive (starting from his time in the army) and his favourite allegory is that martial arts are a spoked wheel (like a bicycle). There are many spokes tracing a route to the middle and we all start at a different point on the rim but we're all heading for the same place ... the middle!
Discussions of which style is best are irrelevant when you're dealing with those arts with proper history. The newer stuff has yet to prove itself but that doesn't mean it's bad (after all MMA is the roxxorz m8 :lol:!).
I did a Jeet Kune Du influenced Lau Gar Kung Fu style for 12 years before my bike accident put paid to all that. When I started, I had a terrible snobbery about karate (embarassed memories abound of the tripe I used to talk ... "no change there!" choruses everyone
) but once I got up to black sash standard I realised the error of my ways.
Every style has it's emphasis in a different place, which is why there are different styles but in the end there's only so much you can do with the human body and if you persist in your advancement long enough then style is pretty much transended. Hard, soft, internal, external ... that's just the road (or spoke) you're on. The journeys the thing.
Anyhow, enough philosophy.
The one time I had to use what I learned was against three skinheads, all bigger than me, with keychains and broken bottles. The situation was my own stupid fault for not being clever enough to avoid it in the first place but that's by the by.
When the action started, all thoughts of style were nowhere to be found as I put into practice what I had learned, suitably adapted to what was happening. One wrist/elbow lock put on after evading a bottle thrust, to give me a 'shield' to fend off another one of them, one low snap kick to the knee (I was wearing cowboy boots on cobblestones so nothing fancy) to put one on the ground, a little extra twist on what I was holding on to break it and throw him at the chap I'd been fending off whilst I ran like mad (straight to the police station I might add).
There's nothing there that any art would not prepare you to do. I'm sure that our fellows in the military or law enforcement could give better examples but I hope you get my point. It wasn't my style that got me out of it, it was the fact that I'd trained and reacted below the level of thought.
One last 'Mr Miagi' emphasis, I do reckon tho' that if I'd done things right, I shouldn't have had to fight at all because I wouldn't have been caught out like that in the first place.
All of you deserve a good rep buffing (ooh er, nurse!) but noone has yet mentioned one of the truisms of martial arts (of the non-blended from the start variety) viz that the more experienced the practitioner becomes then the more he/she realises that what is practised is much more similar to other arts than you might imagine (at the start).
I'm sure we've all had discourses with people from other arts where after a while, covering the ground of such cliches of "Oh, karate is an iron bar and kung fu is a chain", you discuss fundamentals and realise that what you call "xyz", the other person cals "zyx" but its the same thing.
My iaido sensei is also a karate 6th dan and has more years in martial arts than I have been alive (starting from his time in the army) and his favourite allegory is that martial arts are a spoked wheel (like a bicycle). There are many spokes tracing a route to the middle and we all start at a different point on the rim but we're all heading for the same place ... the middle!
Discussions of which style is best are irrelevant when you're dealing with those arts with proper history. The newer stuff has yet to prove itself but that doesn't mean it's bad (after all MMA is the roxxorz m8 :lol:!).
I did a Jeet Kune Du influenced Lau Gar Kung Fu style for 12 years before my bike accident put paid to all that. When I started, I had a terrible snobbery about karate (embarassed memories abound of the tripe I used to talk ... "no change there!" choruses everyone
) but once I got up to black sash standard I realised the error of my ways.Every style has it's emphasis in a different place, which is why there are different styles but in the end there's only so much you can do with the human body and if you persist in your advancement long enough then style is pretty much transended. Hard, soft, internal, external ... that's just the road (or spoke) you're on. The journeys the thing.
Anyhow, enough philosophy.
The one time I had to use what I learned was against three skinheads, all bigger than me, with keychains and broken bottles. The situation was my own stupid fault for not being clever enough to avoid it in the first place but that's by the by.
When the action started, all thoughts of style were nowhere to be found as I put into practice what I had learned, suitably adapted to what was happening. One wrist/elbow lock put on after evading a bottle thrust, to give me a 'shield' to fend off another one of them, one low snap kick to the knee (I was wearing cowboy boots on cobblestones so nothing fancy) to put one on the ground, a little extra twist on what I was holding on to break it and throw him at the chap I'd been fending off whilst I ran like mad (straight to the police station I might add).
There's nothing there that any art would not prepare you to do. I'm sure that our fellows in the military or law enforcement could give better examples but I hope you get my point. It wasn't my style that got me out of it, it was the fact that I'd trained and reacted below the level of thought.
One last 'Mr Miagi' emphasis, I do reckon tho' that if I'd done things right, I shouldn't have had to fight at all because I wouldn't have been caught out like that in the first place.
zDom
Senior Master
I've always thought of martial arts as being like a mountain.
People at the bottom are somewhat far apart in their approaches.
Those near the top in their respective path up the mountain are much closer together.
If someone reaches the very peak, they have it ALL mastered
(Theoretically, of course. I'm not sure the peak is really reachable during a human lifespan ... )
kidswarrior
Senior Master
I've always thought of martial arts as being like a mountain.
People at the bottom are somewhat far apart in their approaches.
Those near the top in their respective path up the mountain are much closer together.
If someone reaches the very peak, they have it ALL mastered
I am but a grasshopper in your presence, Enlightened One. :ultracool
Really, both the wheel and mountain metaphors are very good.
And by the way, I'm still waiting for that ridge hand clip.
opcorn:
