Sparring: Contact or Not? Where?

[Lynne]

I was surprised to learn that Soo Bahk Do students do not make contact when sparring (unless I misunderstood the post). Do you mean you counter one another with zero contact????

In Tang Soo Do, we do have contact. We are allowed to strike from the top of the head to the belt. We are also allowed kidney punches and kicks. Kicks are allowed to the head. Straight punches are allowed to the head. Sometimes, judges will not allow backfists as it's not too hard to do a knock out; often they will not even allow a fake backfist as a set up for a reverse punch due to students' lack of control. Sometimes, judges will allow backfists regardless of what the rules say.

There was a knockout at a recent Pennsylvania tournament but I don't know the details. Knockouts are rare, I think.

I'm under the impression that black belts are allowed to hit in the face at tournaments. Not sure. That may also depend on the center judge. I see that they are hitting in the face during class.

I was hit in the face last night by my green belt partner who is also 4th gup. No black eye yet. She was going for my head. Just glad it wasn't my nose. And I kicked her below the belt (how embarrassing). I know that didn't feel too good. This speaks to our lack of control. However, we gain more control the more we spar.

So, I'm curious if you are allowed face punches, kidney punches, whatever. And if you have no contact, how are you awarded points?

 

[MBuzzy]

First of all, I would be careful about saying "In Tang Soo Do we have...." with the huge amount of schools and organizations, you're only speaking for a very small minority. As I stated in my post here, I'm in the SBD Federation. We do have a no-contact rule, although contact happens. The intent of the rule is to stop excessive contact and to protect both the students and the studio owners from liability suits. When it comes right down to it, it has very little to do with how tough you are and how much contact you allow....it is a legal thing.

Now we do spar with contact, the strictness with which the rule is applied is up to the judge or the studio owner. Again, we emphasize CONTROL. Being able to choose if you hit your opponent or not is very important....also how hard you will hit them. Control also plays into how effectively you can actually hit your target.

One more note....that I just have to say....Lynne, I've read your posts about the sparring at your school before and honestly, I have to say. It really scares me that there are schools like your out there. Who encourage hits to the face, "pummelling," and other tactics like that in their sparring. Sparring is a martial arts excercise just like any other. The point is to prolong life and to tune your body, not to hurt yourself. The days of punching tree bark for 4 hours are long gone. We are much smarter than that. Throwing a full speed punch on target and not hitting is far more difficult than actually connecting; people really dont' seem to think about that. If your school is encouraging people to hurt each other, please please....use your judgment, if it doesn't smell right, it isn't. Not only is that dangerous to you and your daughter, but it is a liability suit waiting to happen.....

I'm not trying to put down your school....just some things to think about.

 

[Lynne]

First of all, I would be careful about saying "In Tang Soo Do we have...." with the huge amount of schools and organizations, you're only speaking for a very small minority. As I stated in my post here, I'm in the SBD Federation. We do have a no-contact rule, although contact happens. The intent of the rule is to stop excessive contact and to protect both the students and the studio owners from liability suits. When it comes right down to it, it has very little to do with how tough you are and how much contact you allow....it is a legal thing.

Now we do spar with contact, the strictness with which the rule is applied is up to the judge or the studio owner. Again, we emphasize CONTROL. Being able to choose if you hit your opponent or not is very important....also how hard you will hit them. Control also plays into how effectively you can actually hit your target.

One more note....that I just have to say....Lynne, I've read your posts about the sparring at your school before and honestly, I have to say. It really scares me that there are schools like your out there. Who encourage hits to the face, "pummelling," and other tactics like that in their sparring. Sparring is a martial arts excercise just like any other. The point is to prolong life and to tune your body, not to hurt yourself. The days of punching tree bark for 4 hours are long gone. We are much smarter than that. Throwing a full speed punch on target and not hitting is far more difficult than actually connecting; people really dont' seem to think about that. If your school is encouraging people to hurt each other, please please....use your judgment, if it doesn't smell right, it isn't. Not only is that dangerous to you and your daughter, but it is a liability suit waiting to happen.....

I'm not trying to put down your school....just some things to think about.

I'm on the fence. I had been trying to do light but accurate contact because I believed all you had to do was make contact. I wasn't out to beat the heck out of anyone. On the otherhand, if we hit lightly that's considered pulling punches. Then from a self-defense point, the instructor's want us to be able to defend ourselves, so they want our sparring to be a little more reality-based.

I know our school wouldn't allow orange belts to hit in the face and backfists are moderated if caught at that level. I'm not so sure about green belts and up striking the face. Not 100% on that at all. We are definitely allowed the kicks to the head and backfists and punches to the head during class. At my level, we generally don't strike in the face. If I get hit in the face at a tournament and it's allowed, I will be returning face punches.

Once I was sparring a black belt and he backfisted my nose, but stopped short. I don't know if that would be allowed in a tournament. People do get broken noses in tournaments. That is not rare. I suspect from wayward punches though. Anytime blood is drawn that is an immediate disqualification for the one who drew the blood.

Now, the instructors are constantly after us regards control. They'll reprimand a student if the student goes in brawling and flailing. And they want to see good technique. A roundhouse is a roundhouse, not a shoe kick. Often, I hear them say, "Control!"

I was very surprised about the pummeling. My daughter said, "Oh, they teach you to pummel." The idea is to make sure you land some solid hits. I think it may be to intimidate your opponent to some degree, too. That's just what I think, lol.

I got your point about mentioning Tang Soo Do as inclusive of all TSD organizations as rules differ from organization to organization. Ours is a large organization. If I remember correctly, last year our tournament was open to SBD/TKD, etc., so our rules might have been a surprise for some.

(At a recent tournament one of the masters allowed throat strikes. That's surprising to me.)

 

[claireg31]

hi Lynne

in class we have light/controlled contact, however, because we have all trained together for so long, we quite often get carried away and it becomes exesive contact from time to time (never tears though).

At competitions we are allowed contact, but as in class, it shouldn't be too exesive. The point scoring and techniques can vary from club to club. Some disallow jumping back fists to the head, others don't allow jump-spinning kicks to the head.

In all, i reckon its pretty had to not have contact, i have on one occassion had a warning for exessive contact, to me it wasn't exessive just what i was used to in class.

Control is something that we are taught from the very beginning and i believe it is something that is very important to the art we practise, the kids do tag sparring and that even when they get their sparring kits, it takes time and makes it fairer too.

However, having said all that, if someone is overly aggressive in a match with me, its like a red rag to a bull and i fight like i would with one of the guys in class...

 

[Lynne]

hi Lynne

in class we have light/controlled contact, however, because we have all trained together for so long, we quite often get carried away and it becomes exesive contact from time to time (never tears though).

At competitions we are allowed contact, but as in class, it shouldn't be too exesive. The point scoring and techniques can vary from club to club. Some disallow jumping back fists to the head, others don't allow jump-spinning kicks to the head.

In all, i reckon its pretty had to not have contact, i have on one occassion had a warning for exessive contact, to me it wasn't exessive just what i was used to in class.

Control is something that we are taught from the very beginning and i believe it is something that is very important to the art we practise, the kids do tag sparring and that even when they get their sparring kits, it takes time and makes it fairer too.

However, having said all that, if someone is overly aggressive in a match with me, its like a red rag to a bull and i fight like i would with one of the guys in class...

So far, I've only been to one tournament. I was an orange belt then. I have my second tournament in October so it shall be interesting to see how things go.

I do remember getting points without contact last year. I did an inside/outside kick that I know did not strike my partner. I did go over her shoulder and down the front. I was awarded a point. I figured that was because we were orange belts and "trying."

Now, I'm very curious to see if any of us will get warnings for excessive contact.

 

[Lynne]

Regards liability, we have to wear sparring gear during class sparring and tournaments. Required: helmet, gloves, and shoes. In addition, I wear shin guards and a mouthguard.

At last year's tournament, the judges stood over us while we were putting on our sparring gear. Hmmm. I suppose they were checking to make sure we were using approved gear.

Gee, I just had to duct tape my sparring shoes. Do you think they'll fly this year? Duct tape will hold better than the junky foam and plastic.

 

[claireg31]

i just don't think sparring gear last very long!!

duct tape might be better, more strength in it..

in class we have all our sparring gear on, not often i wear my gum shield in class, but then its choice and we all know our limits, ok, so i am aware that a stray fist can connect and might do.

i hate the thought of being hit hard in a competition and i hate the thought i might hit someone hard too, i guess if your lucky enough to wathc the first round then you can gage how hard/soft you are allowed to contact, if that makes any snese whatsover!!

 

[thesandman]

It is important to understand a few things. One, that sparring is a game. It's a training tool to be sure, but it is a game. Like any game, there are many many variations to be found. The most common of which in a tournament setting is stop sparring. That is, the fight stops after each point. Two, sparring is not equated to a real fight. There is no such thing as "realistic" sparring. Being a good sparrer does not make you a good fighter. Sparring will teach you many of the things that will help you be a good fighter, but not all of them by any means.

In general, under black belt ranks are "light contact", not allowing face or kidney strikes. Additionally, contact is not required to earn a point. Scoring a point without contact is judged by if the strike was fully extended or not. If the strike was pulled for control, but clearly COULD have struck if desired, the point is awarded. If the strike fully extends, but falls just short, it is not awarded.

Black belt ranks are "firm contact" but not excessive, allowing face and kidney strikes. The control comes into play by being able to judge the force required to stagger your opponent without injuring them.

Blind techniques (such as spinning backfists) are rarely allowed at all. Any technique that does not have a direct line of sight between the attacker and the point of contact is deemed to not be adequately controlled. This makes sense as it's pretty hard to control a strike you can't see against a moving target. Now, spinning techniques such as this can be done legally IF the head finishes the turn before the strike lands. This is risky though, because you're trusting that the judges are skilled enough to know the difference and keen of sight to see it.

Some of the things I've read in these threads concerns me. We must be careful about judging training methods, especially when it comes to "realism". It's a tricky idea for many reasons. I'm willing to bet that NONE of us are crazy and irresponsible enough to have ANY truly realistic fighting training in our classes. To do so would require an actual fight. The ONLY way to train realistically is to practice the real thing. If you're training "realistically" and do not end up in the hospital, you were training with someone who was no match for you and you should be ashamed of taking advantage of their weakness.

With this idea as a given, that true realism in class is just too dangerous, everything becomes an issue of degree.

If one class has a rule of "no contact" for their sparring, that's just a degree of the rules to prevent injury (and legal liability). That is no worse or better than a class that chooses to require strong contact.

Sparring is a GAME, the rules will always exist to prevent severe injury. Some classes will be okay with a bloody nose or a black eye, others won't. Each may have compelling reasons for their choice. Even the UFC, the current pox on the martial arts, has rules. Things you are not allowed to do. Once you introduce things you are not allowed to do, it is no longer "realistic".

As for my classes, we tend to follow the tournament structure pretty well. If something was not hard enough to be deemed a point in a tournament, we won't count it. On the other hand, if something was so strong as to risk a warning for excessive force, we will point that out.

 

[JoelD]

Excellent post, sir. Nicely put.

 

[JWLuiza]

This is the first time I've ever heard of Backfists being not allowed at a tournament. I'm curious as to why people think they are dangerous.

A spinning blind backfist (panic chop) on the other hand is obviously dangerous. Backfists are one of the first techniques we teach our students.

At Black, we allow moderate body contact, but no face contact. In class, we vary the levels of the contact based on the goal of the drill.

 

[cdunn]

In class, we offically spar no contact. However, when it's two adult senior (red / black) belts, you bring what ever your senior wants you to bring. Often, this is light-to-moderate contact. Rarely, this is 'Please don't make me bleed on sabomnim's floor'.

The only real benefit you get from the harder sessions is that getting hit slowly dissociates the mental shock from the physical shock of getting hit. Being able to assess how much you actually got hurt from getting hit, and going on with the fight is a skill that has to be developed, otherwise, the surprise of it can shut down your ability to 'return fire', as it were.

 

[Kacey]

A couple of things:

First, I do Ch'ang H'on TKD, not TSD, so the rules are different - our tournament rules are moderate contact to the body, light contact to the head; legal target zones are anywhere on the front of the torso above the belt (from the floating ribs forward, belt to base of throat), and anywhere on the head. There are no legal targets on the neck, behind the floating ribs, or below the back. This, remember, is tournament sparring - class rules often vary.

We require hand and foot pads, mouthguards, and open-face headgear (red belt and up - sweeps are legal at red belt, and the chief danger is hitting the floor with your head after you've been swept), and cups for male competitors. We allow, but do not require, shin and arm guards. All pads are dipped foam. We do not allow head gear that covers the face (cage, plastic, etc.), although those who want to can wear sports goggles. We do not allow leather pads, or tape of any type, as either can easily cut your opponent - and since the face is the only area open, it's the area most likely to get cut. The best way to fix cracks in dipped foam pads is to use superglue - it won't cut like tape, and holds really well.

 

[foggymorning162]

This is a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately. Our federation does not allow head contact (this is a fairly new rule we used to allow light contact at the black belt level) we have a class that is sparring only the intstructor does allow head contact in class I wouldn't mind but my son sees a neurologist for migraines and some of the teens think light contact means your opponants head should only rock back a foot and a half instead of three feet. I've spoken to the instructor if it doesn't stop I will go to our head instructor last resort I will stop bringing my son to that class but I don't want to do that because he truely enjoys sparring. We do sometimes make head contact in the adult class but it is usually done in a friendly manner(just a reminder to watch your head). I think thesandman correctly explained scoring without contact this is how we score head contact and also no contact sparring if you are not wearing gear. I would love to say more on this subject but my son needs homework help so I'm signing off

 

[Lynne]

I guess I can modify by saying we have moderate contact in class but some people go harder, especially black belt men with black belt men. You'd better watch out and be ready to move the heck out of the way because they are going to be staggerng and flying out of the ring. Now that is fact. Often same with the red belts. I keep an eye on them when I'm lined up waiting for my turn to spar, or sparring for that matter (they sometimes come tumbling into my ring). Ok, tournaments are rough. I think most judges let red belts and black belts go hard in our partiipating organizations.

Kicks to the juniors' heads by black belts are usually controlled and stop short of more than light contact. Now, I wouldn't trust an orange belt or a green belt with head kicks. I don't think we have enough control yet. I know orange belts do not. But we are allowed to kick at the head in most tournaments. When an orange belt tries a backfist to the head you are going to get hit in the face instead, lol. To learn control though, we need to practice with contact.

 

[Lynne]

This is the first time I've ever heard of Backfists being not allowed at a tournament. I'm curious as to why people think they are dangerous.

A spinning blind backfist (panic chop) on the other hand is obviously dangerous. Backfists are one of the first techniques we teach our students.

At Black, we allow moderate body contact, but no face contact. In class, we vary the levels of the contact based on the goal of the drill.

I can only tell you what I've been told, "It's easy to knock someone out with a backfist." And my instructors are talking about a backfist to the head while facing your opponent. We practice backfist-reverse punches often in class. It's rather automatic and I do it in sparring a lot. I'm thinking I need to stop practicing that combination or I'll do it in competition. We were warned over and over last year to not even do a backfist as a set-up. This year, they are already warning us and the tournament is in October.

 

[Lynne]

Thanks for the super glue idea, Kacey. I really didn't want to spend another $20 + shipping right now.

 

[Kwanjang]

Hi Lynne,

At my school, for the children, I am about them using control. No face punches. I don't want to give them a reason to be scared of something very assential to learning martial arts--sparring. For my adults I ask they also use control. If both adult students agree they can "bang" on each other, I don't let them use straight punches to the face durring sparring. However, I do teach them how to straight punch. I tell my students that, in my opinion, it does'nt take skill to hit hard-I can teach that in a few lessons. But it does take skill to spar fast and accurate and barely touch your opponet. afterall most of my students have to go to work the next day. I beleive highly trained martial artists know "control" is like flipping a switch. They can hit with authority when need be--its a mindset. Do accidents happen...unfortunatley yes! In the last couple of months two of my black belts (one from each school) have broken a couple of noses with round house kicks.

 

[Lynne]

Hi Lynne,

At my school, for the children, I am about them using control. No face punches. I don't want to give them a reason to be scared of something very assential to learning martial arts--sparring. For my adults I ask they also use control. If both adult students agree they can "bang" on each other, I don't let them use straight punches to the face durring sparring. However, I do teach them how to straight punch. I tell my students that, in my opinion, it does'nt take skill to hit hard-I can teach that in a few lessons. But it does take skill to spar fast and accurate and barely touch your opponet. afterall most of my students have to go to work the next day. I beleive highly trained martial artists know "control" is like flipping a switch. They can hit with authority when need be--its a mindset. Do accidents happen...unfortunatley yes! In the last couple of months two of my black belts (one from each school) have broken a couple of noses with round house kicks.

I agree that it takes skill to be fast and accurate, barely touching your opponent.

My instructors consider it pulling punches and kicks if we do not make moderate contact. Senior males tell me to hit harder, "You can hit harder than that! Come on, hit me hard!" Maybe they are trying to teach me to not be afraid to hit and to be more agressive as well as more accurate.

 

[Kwanjang]

I agree that it takes skill to be fast and accurate, barely touching your opponent.

My instructors consider it pulling punches and kicks if we do not make moderate contact. Senior males tell me to hit harder, "You can hit harder than that! Come on, hit me hard!" Maybe they are trying to teach me to not be afraid to hit and to be more agressive as well as more accurate.

I would say you are right

 

[Empty Hands]

I can only tell you what I've been told, "It's easy to knock someone out with a backfist."

Not in my experience. I've taken full force backfists from some of our more enthusiastic students and it never came close to knocking me out. Didn't even hurt too bad. Punches on the other hand hurt a lot more, and cause knockouts more readily - aim for the chin!