Son's first Match

[Tony49]

I know it is part of the rules but it amazes me on how long it takes for some one to check the status/health of the competitor. On a side note, I would say your son has learn the game well. Its the student who can learn the rules and exploit them the best that will win the matches. Congrats on the win.

 

[TaekwondoDad]

First, ATC congratulations to your son for his accomplishments. The power and technique are truly awesome.

Now, I am going to be the bad guy on the thread and ask that it be taken as a discussion of issues and not a personal attack on ATC or his son.

While a lot of people applaud watching the other kid go down or as one commenter calls it "exploiting the rules", I look at it a bit different.

Sure there are differences between those who focus on WTF sparring and those who claim to be pure self defense and there are certainly differences in the way you conduct yourself in a self defense situation and in a sparring match. In a self defense situation, kick as hard as you can, do whatever it takes, knock your opponent out, there are no rules but survival. No problem there.

In WTF/USAT and other types of sparring there are rules. When you join an organization and sign up for a tournament you agree to be bound by those rules. I would also assume that when one trains they would be familiar with the rules of the tournament that they are going to attend and plan to abide by them and that their coaches would assist them in doing so.

Having said that, you note that your son was penalized at least once in each of four matches for the same infraction. You are pointing out that your son broke the same rule at least 4 times in the same tournament? How many times? 6? 8? 10? It also seems that you are ok with this?

I am trying to understand, do people consider this to be exploiting the rules or gaming the system to their benefit, or cheating? You note that your son kicks harder in practice so he has toned it down some, so he, and I would assume his instructor, are aware of the rules and the fact that he needs to control his kicks. Even though they are aware, still he gets penalized so much? Is he kicking too hard, violating the rules and attempting to hurt another kid on purpose? with your blessing? with his instructor's blessing? or does he need more practice and to learn more control?

I have seen 12 year olds at other tournaments disqualified for uncontrolled or overly aggressive kicks. I would think that in an instance where a competitor repeatedly in every match commits the same penalty and risks injuring another competitor on purpose(?) that it would not be too harsh to remove the competitor from the match.

The weekend after the junior olympics my daughter was at a tournament in LA. She has been practicing head-shots in anticipation of next year, but the rules do not allow them for her this year. During her match, her kicks progressivey got higher. When she reached the top of her opponent's hogu, I was yelling from the sidelines for her to keep her kicks down. Why? Because I didn't want to see the other girl get hurt. Because I didn't want to see my daughter get a penalty. Because I want my daughter to follow the rules. If she ever purposely went into a match with the intent to break a rule, especially a safety rule, or if she broke the same rule repeatedly, I would remove her from the tournament myself. I believe her master would step in and remove her if I wasn't there. I would have to seriously consider whether or not she could compete again and there would be a good chance that her master would ban her from his school.

I know there are people who will do whatever it takes and break any rule as long as their kid wins. A lady from my daughter's school signed her daughter up in a lower age group since she "wasn't ready" to fight kids her own age. I have a problem and point it out and denounce anyone from our school who does this and would really have a problem if any kid from our school was repeatedly breaking safety rules for an advantage.

So, what do people think? OK to repeatedly break sparring safety rules at a tournament and lose a point or two each match to gain a psychological edge over the opponent? Or better to teach kids respect for rules and be safe?

 

[Thesemindz]

OK to repeatedly break sparring safety rules at a tournament and lose a point or two each match to gain a psychological edge over the opponent? Or better to teach kids respect for rules and be safe?

Great post. Great points. I don't see this as an either/or scenario.

I think it's important to teach kids what rules are and why they're there. I don't think it's important to teach kids to respect rules. Rules are not inherently worthy of respect, and thinking they are is a source of much evil. I think it's important to teach kids to understand rules, but respect them? Not just for being rules.

I think it's important to teach everyone safety. Kids and adults need to know how to train and practice and compete safely. And violations of rules and safety is always a reason to remove someone from a tournament. I respect the fact that you would. But not everyone will agree, and depending on the ruleset and the style of adjudication, breaking the rules may be the truer course to victory. Then it becomes a matter of weighted values. Which is more important? Winning? Or honor? Different people will answer the question differently. Some people would rather have the trophies than the respect of their peers, and if they can get away with breaking the rules and walk away the "winner," they will. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's reality.

So I teach my students what the rules are, and how to follow them safely. But I also teach them how to cheat, and why and when. Because even if they decide to comport themselves with honor, there is no guarantee their opponents will. In sports or in life. And they need to know how cheaters cheat so that they can protect themselves from it. That's why the first command is "keep your guard up at all times."

I kick my students while they're bowing and attack them with dishonorable handshakes and strike illegal targets and cheat on the "off judge" side. So that they understand what to do if someone else does. And because sometimes cheating is the surest route to success.

But that's not the same as teaching children good sportsmanship. It depends on what lesson you're working on that day.


-Rob

 

[Tony49]

I didn't think about "exploiting the rules" as you interpreted at the time I wrote the post but I can't disagree with you interpretation either. One of the best tactics in light contact and WTF (I don't consider WTF full contact since there is protective gear and its point based rather than round based... just my definition) it is to put fear in the other person from your power. Otherwise, the other person can just run-over you. I seen many skilled fighters lose to the one that plays the game (mind game) better. As far as breaking the rules, I would have disqualified the competitor based on excessive head contact if this was a normal Light Contact to head type tournament. However, it sounds like the WTF has a penalty system in place to address the issue which they followed so everyone did what they needed to. I also don't like the other competitor just walking around they always look smug and arrogant(general statement) after knocking someone out. It is not boxing or UFC it is a Martial Art. I was always taught to turn and kneel while the other competitor is being looked at. When legal knock outs happen, I always see people jumping around and celebrating. I know you just won but with out the gear technically you potential just killed some one. Don't get me wrong there are some cool things about WTF sparring for example the footwork or game has many good benefits.

 

[TaekwondoDad]

Tony, thanks for understanding and not thinking I was attacking your post on the rules.

Rob, some great points. Thank you for the well thought out response.

For everyone else, including and especially ATC, I don't mean to come across as preachy, condescending or attacking. Am honestly looking for open discussion

 

[Thesemindz]

I was always taught to turn and kneel while the other competitor is being looked at.

I was taught to do this during competition, and I believe it is a sign of respect. Especially in a controlled contact environment, where you may have (hopefully unintentionally) seriously injured someone who was not prepared for that degree of force. In the school, when training, I usually just see if I need to administer aid and then we get back to training. I've been floored before during class. After a moment you should either get back up and keep working, or crawl over to the side of the floor and catch your breath. If it's too serious for either of those options, then it's time for medical assistance.


-Rob

 

[ATC]

I also don't like the other competitor just walking around they always look smug and arrogant(general statement) after knocking someone out. It is not boxing or UFC it is a Martial Art. I was always taught to turn and kneel while the other competitor is being looked at. When legal knock outs happen, I always see people jumping around and celebrating.

Hi Tony, Yes we teach the same but I think my son was really conserned. As you can see he did not celebrate at all but simply looked on with concern. He talked tot he kid afterwards and I even talked to the kids coach. My kids would never celebrate hurting anyone.

Belive it or not my son was trying to go really easy after that. Both my kids really hate when they hurt anyone. I had a clip of my daughter KO'ing a girl with a body shot and feeling really back aftewards, but youtube deleted the video for copyright infringements (it was my video with no music or anything).

 

[ATC]

First, ATC congratulations to your son for his accomplishments. The power and technique are truly awesome.

Now, I am going to be the bad guy on the thread and ask that it be taken as a discussion of issues and not a personal attack on ATC or his son.

While a lot of people applaud watching the other kid go down or as one commenter calls it "exploiting the rules", I look at it a bit different.

Sure there are differences between those who focus on WTF sparring and those who claim to be pure self defense and there are certainly differences in the way you conduct yourself in a self defense situation and in a sparring match. In a self defense situation, kick as hard as you can, do whatever it takes, knock your opponent out, there are no rules but survival. No problem there.

In WTF/USAT and other types of sparring there are rules. When you join an organization and sign up for a tournament you agree to be bound by those rules. I would also assume that when one trains they would be familiar with the rules of the tournament that they are going to attend and plan to abide by them and that their coaches would assist them in doing so.

Having said that, you note that your son was penalized at least once in each of four matches for the same infraction. You are pointing out that your son broke the same rule at least 4 times in the same tournament? How many times? 6? 8? 10? It also seems that you are ok with this?

I am trying to understand, do people consider this to be exploiting the rules or gaming the system to their benefit, or cheating? You note that your son kicks harder in practice so he has toned it down some, so he, and I would assume his instructor, are aware of the rules and the fact that he needs to control his kicks. Even though they are aware, still he gets penalized so much? Is he kicking too hard, violating the rules and attempting to hurt another kid on purpose? with your blessing? with his instructor's blessing? or does he need more practice and to learn more control?

I have seen 12 year olds at other tournaments disqualified for uncontrolled or overly aggressive kicks. I would think that in an instance where a competitor repeatedly in every match commits the same penalty and risks injuring another competitor on purpose(?) that it would not be too harsh to remove the competitor from the match.

The weekend after the junior olympics my daughter was at a tournament in LA. She has been practicing head-shots in anticipation of next year, but the rules do not allow them for her this year. During her match, her kicks progressivey got higher. When she reached the top of her opponent's hogu, I was yelling from the sidelines for her to keep her kicks down. Why? Because I didn't want to see the other girl get hurt. Because I didn't want to see my daughter get a penalty. Because I want my daughter to follow the rules. If she ever purposely went into a match with the intent to break a rule, especially a safety rule, or if she broke the same rule repeatedly, I would remove her from the tournament myself. I believe her master would step in and remove her if I wasn't there. I would have to seriously consider whether or not she could compete again and there would be a good chance that her master would ban her from his school.

I know there are people who will do whatever it takes and break any rule as long as their kid wins. A lady from my daughter's school signed her daughter up in a lower age group since she "wasn't ready" to fight kids her own age. I have a problem and point it out and denounce anyone from our school who does this and would really have a problem if any kid from our school was repeatedly breaking safety rules for an advantage.

So, what do people think? OK to repeatedly break sparring safety rules at a tournament and lose a point or two each match to gain a psychological edge over the opponent? Or better to teach kids respect for rules and be safe?

Thanks for the post TKDDAD,

We don't teach any of our kids to break any rules. The rule is one of interpretation, and sometimes things just happen. The one kick in the original video is one that just happened. Out of the 5 penalized kicks only this one would be one that I and many of the other judges consider hard or excessive contact to the head, the other kicks were light or very light. The particular center ref during the other matches just seemed to be a little to quick to call almost any kick to the head excessive, or he just had it out for my son. He even wanted to call a body shot to hard at one point but was told by the TA at the judging table that it was a body shot so he could not call it.

Below is a clip of a match that my son got called 3 time for excessive contact to the head, and on each you will see no damage to the other kid. My son even missed one kick on pourpose as not to hurt the kid that got called. A miss got called as excessive. After being called 3 times (after a 4th you are DQ'd) my son went all body and you will see where the center ref wanted to give a penalty for a body kick.

Note at the 4 minute mark in the video the kick to the body that the ref wanted to call.

Again we do not attempt to break any rule but when a rule is one of the subjective type anything can be called an infraction of that rule.

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[TaekwondoDad]

ATC,

Thank you for clarifying that and once again, I wish your son the best.

 

[Thesemindz]

Looks to me like he wanted to call every knockdown excessive contact. Maybe the kid wouldn't get knocked down so much if he had a stronger stance.

You're kid's a good fighter.


-Rob

 

[ATC]

Looks to me like he wanted to call every knockdown excessive contact. Maybe the kid wouldn't get knocked down so much if he had a stronger stance.

You're kid's a good fighter.


-Rob

Yes we all thought the same thing. The kid kept his weight on his back leg so his balance was just off. The kicks were as soft as my son could kick and still be considerd kicks.

I think the rule is a good one but some refs just lean to far to the side of any kick to the head is to much. Some refs let them compete and some refs are just heard from too much.

 

[Thesemindz]

Yes we all thought the same thing. The kid kept his weight on his back leg so his balance was just off. The kicks were as soft as my son could kick and still be considerd kicks.

I think the rule is a good one but some refs just lean to far to the side of any kick to the head is to much. Some refs let them compete and some refs are just heard from too much.

It's a game. That'll happen.


-Rob

 

[oftheherd1]

The loser had it coming - Not bowing at the start, how dare he

I wondered if anyone else had noticed that. That should have been a point loss itself imho. For the lad and the referee.

Im no fan of sport tkd, but Im the first to admit it gets a very bad rap. I did karate prior to tkd and the contact in sparring was significantly less. The bottom line is that olympic sparring is full contact, you can kick someone's head off their shoulders if you like and without a hogu you would have broken ribs in no time, this cant be said for many martial arts these days which are becoming less and less in contact.

Well, I haven't studied TKD in about 45 years, and have no idea of sport TKD rules, plus it is difficult for me to see exactly when the kick landed. But it looks like the loser tried a kick after your son began his kick. No retreat, no block, what's to be expected? Just glad he wasn't hurt. Congrats to your son.

 

[Tony49]

Hi Tony, Yes we teach the same but I think my son was really conserned. As you can see he did not celebrate at all but simply looked on with concern. He talked tot he kid afterwards and I even talked to the kids coach. My kids would never celebrate hurting anyone.

Belive it or not my son was trying to go really easy after that. Both my kids really hate when they hurt anyone. I had a clip of my daughter KO'ing a girl with a body shot and feeling really back aftewards, but youtube deleted the video for copyright infringements (it was my video with no music or anything).

Sorry, that comment wasn't directed to you are your son. I was just pointing out that because of the video angle and location a third party can not see the concern of the competitors face and for the fact that most use it as a break they tend to put their hands in various positions that make it appear that they either are irritated with the delay or just not interested. I didn't mean you or your son showed any lack of humility or compassion for the other fighter. Remember, when you post a picture or video the third party only gets to see a fraction of what really went on and since they are trying to make WTF sparring a spectator sport this all we get to see regarding the fighters. So in essence, they maybe the most humble guy in the world and bring the guy flowers and chocolate after an injury but we will never see that. We will only see him doing a pump fist or some victory expression after nearly taking his head off.

 

[armortkd]

Andrew's son was fighting with great control & technically very clean. At no point was he cranking his hips to injure the other kid. Also, he has a beautiful "drift" as well. He reminds me of Jason Han.

Sometimes we have to factor in with Junior Safety Rules that athletes are gonna be kicked to the head while moving forward, bending or falling over, fatigue, inexperience, or a lack of training will make a headshot look a lot worse. Andrew, you've raise a kid with a great attitude in the ring who happens to a great fighter at his age. KUDOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rumy73]

I've done a few different kinds of martial arts, and I say that Olympic style TKD is mostly foot tag. Sorry to bust your bubble. In traditional TKD much more power is generated, because the emphasis is on crisp technique. Sport TKD is about speed. LaJust makes things worse. Players simply have to tag the opponent's chest guard. Take a look at these kids, guard down, developing bad habits for self defense.

To be fair, sometimes it can Look like foot tag, but at the same time, its mostly armchair experts who think they need to see tremendous recoil in order for something to be full contact.

TKD has alot of penetration power, and tends to be more powerful than it looks. And this is indeed a great example of one of the most basic kicks in TKD being used effectively. By a kid.

 

[Cyriacus]

I've done a few different kinds of martial arts, and I say that Olympic style TKD is mostly foot tag. Sorry to bust your bubble. In traditional TKD much more power is generated, because the emphasis is on crisp technique. Sport TKD is about speed. LaJust makes things worse. Players simply have to tag the opponent's chest guard. Take a look at these kids, guard down, developing bad habits for self defense.

You realise your saying this to someone who trains Traditional TKD under the ITF Organisation, right?

I dont have a bubble to bust; WTF TKD Sparring is about Scoring Points, that much is irrefutable.

Now i shall have to put on my flak jacket to anyone who misinterprits this and say, i know that KKW TKD =/= WTF Sparring

They are performing fast techniques, but the techniques are still reasonably powerful. The Hogu dampen out the power, and nigh all high kicks are used to either end a bout by TKO, or to score more points. Punching is rarely used because punching rarely scores, hence the Sport flavor.
There are many sides to this type of thing, and many factors to consider. For example, even though punching rarely scores in WTF Sparring, some KKW TKD practitioners still do it. On the flipside, many dont. On the flipside again, many Karate forms and Muay Thai forms dont block body strikes, to prove the strength of their bodies, even though their hands are up.
Developing bad habits for self defense is perhaps more valid, but then, KKW Step Sparring seems to work that out a bit more nicely than Sport Sparring does.

Welcome to the age old debate.

 

[ATC]

I've done a few different kinds of martial arts, and I say that Olympic style TKD is mostly foot tag. Sorry to bust your bubble. In traditional TKD much more power is generated, because the emphasis is on crisp technique. Sport TKD is about speed. LaJust makes things worse. Players simply have to tag the opponent's chest guard. Take a look at these kids, guard down, developing bad habits for self defense.

Blah blah blah...That is what you just said to me. I get so tired of hearing the same old thing and explaining the same old thing but here I go again anyway.

What you see is simply a sport, I think everyone knows that. The hands are down because that is what the sport dictates, for many reasons, participate in a tournament if you need those reasons explained.

We get quite a few cross overs from other schools that were ITF or Karate or some other style (guess they moved into the area and could not find a school that taught what they were use to doing) come in stating all the same stuff that is so common, only to have a change of attitude once they start.

I have seen and cross trained with many different styles and none kick any faster or harder than any other. Just like in everything, all styles have individuals that rang from the terrible to very good. Some have fast, hard crisp clean techniques, just as some have sloppy, slow, and soft techniques. While still others just have so so or OK techniques. I can walk into any dojo, dojang, school, club and find the very good, the very bad, and the inbetween. If you think everyone one that does KKW TKD or that competes under WTF rules has bad techniques only, or only hits with tippy tap type kicks and punches then I just wasted my time typing this. It is also foolish to think that they all don't know how to use their hands and only keep them by their sides as well. Your statement is very simple minded (or is it narrow minded) at best. Just because you see a sport that you don't understand does not mean that is all that they can do. And to lump all of any art into good or bad is just insane. Like I already stated anything in life has a curve that ranged from terrible to great and there are people on every point of that curve in every art.

 

[Thesemindz]

I tell my students that this style of TKD is a combat sport, just like Western Boxing, Competition Grappling, MMA, Kickboxing, Karate Style Point Fighting, Olympic Judo, Fencing, Sumo, and Paintball. There are lots and lots of combat sports. Olympic style TKD is just one. And within the context of that sport, there are really amazing athletes and really crappy athletes. There are people who train hard and fight hard, and there are people who simply don't. Sports isn't self defense. I think every objective person knows that. But that doesn't mean a baseball player couldn't use a bat in a fight, and it doesn't mean that a football player couldn't use a tackle, and it doesn't mean a TKD player couldn't use a kick. In a real fight, you are just trying not to get dead. You'll use whatever you have at hand.

Telling sport TKD players that their technique won't work in a "real" fight is silly. Of course it can, but it isn't designed to. It's designed to work in a sports arena. Much of what is taught in self defense schools won't work in a sports competition. That doesn't mean it's stupid or worthless. That just means it was designed for a different environment.

Now, when sports schools tell their students that they are learning "real" self defense, I have a problem with it. But as long as everyone knows what everyone is doing, and they're happy with what they're doing, then that should be the end of it.

The kid looks good. He also just knocked out another kid with a head kick from a full standing position. Is that the best option in a "real" fight? Maybe not. But it obviously works. And it may be the best option for him, since it's the one he's trained and executed under pressure.


-Rob

 

[Iwannakick]

I heard a story of a olympic taekwondo team getting attacked in Asia and they whooped some butt