Some thoughts on teaching emphasizing rote memorization...

[geezer]

One of my students returned to class last night after traveling out of state on his job for a couple of weeks. While away he managed to visit another VT school in our association. When he came back to class, I invited him to share his experiences. He said that had a great time and picked up some useful tips. He also noted that the other instructor was "very traditional", with more emphasis on things like dress, bowing, and formality in general. Well I teach a very small group at a park, and I'm also an FMA instructor in a system that's very informal... so all that's to be expected.

Then he added that the other school was also more rigid about doing each training sequence "precisely as originally taught" (at each student level), while we do things differently. In my group, once a student adequately masters a particular drill, we then may change it, or mix in in with the other drills and techniques a student has learned. Much earlier on in the process I start to scramble the order of the techniques so that students learn to apply them whenever appropriate. I noted that the other instructor also teaches a couple of other complex systems of TCMA as well ...systems that have a lot more forms and movements than VT/WC/WT. If he can hold all that in is head, he has a great memory and I bet he has little trouble keeping all the drills straight, just as he learned them. More power to him!

On the other hand I can never keep long sequences straight in my head. But if I know what I'm trying to do, I can usually find a way to get there. For me, WC/VT/WT is about learning a way to move according to specific principles. The drills are a way to develop this sense of movement, but at each stage, once you "get it" you can easily randomize or mix up the drills. My student asked me if I thought this was a better way to teach. My honest answer was that I don't know. So much depends on the "learning style" of the individual student ...and of the teacher. But with my own curious nature and notoriously poor memory for rote routine... it's the only way I could learn or teach. Any thoughts?

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree with you in that the system should be teaching you to move with certain principles that can translate into application. It's not about collecting techniques or forms, but rather those techniques and forms are examples that help you drill and train the principles and develop skill from that. I see my own system in much the same way as you apparently see yours.

that being said, I do believe that it is always good to have a fundamental way that you go back to the basics, even if your skill has moved "beyond" that. This is because the most fundamental way to do things is what trains those principles the best. So always spend time with that, even if you ALSO spend time mixing it up and doing it differently to build sponteneity skills.

My sifu says, the techniques and the forms are simply drills to teach you how to use the principles to make ANY movement into a potentially powerful matial technique, even if that movement does not fit the description of a proper punch or other technique. Once that skill has been learned, the formal techniques and forms are really no longer necessary, as far as application goes. This is where the Chinese arts say, you learn the form to throw it away. Once the tool (the form) has done its job, you don't need to keep it anymore.

At my level of understanding, I say that you keep the form and keep the techniques to practice, to keep reinforcing these principles and keep honing the skills. It's in the application where you throw it away; move and respond spontaneously. That is where the true skill is, not in applying a specific move from the form when fighting.

 

[K-man]

I agree with both of you totally. At a beginner level you are teaching given techniques and there is a 'right' way to get the most from that technique. Then there is the combination of techniques. Sometimes the combination is for a particular reason, sometimes it is purely to establish a flowing pattern where the student transitions smoothly from one technique to the next.

In karate, in a previous life, we had an enormous number of one step sparring drills or kihon kumite drills that we were expected to remember. These were common across our style of Goju. I wouldn't know who devised them but they certainly were not 'traditional'. Now, while they might have some benefit, they are certainly not part of the core system. When I left that style I threw them all out of the training syllabus.

That leaves us with the kata as the only combination of techniques that we drill. We can take a small part of the kata or the complete kata or even a combination from one kata moving into parts of another kata. The combinations are now infinite. This is my version of the 'fundamentals' Michael referred to in his previous post. To us, the kata is a complete fighting system, not just a combination of techniques. To work his way we must be able to use it without thinking.

Within any style of MA there are 'principles'. Once we have learned the techniques and drilled them until they are second nature we don't have to think about what to do if our attacker does 'X'. We just react without having to think. If we have to stop to think what to do next, we are finished. That's far too slow. We apply the principles we have learned to cope with any attack or combination of attacks.

I don't even teach one response to a particular knife attack. I teach the same set of principles so that in the event of an attack you react to the situation without having to think.

The problem with too many sequences, especially long or complex ones, is that, under an adrenalin dump situation, you are most likely to forget them entirely. Like it or not, you are now relying on the 'principles' you have learned. These are the same principles Geezer has described in his post above.

The only part where our training differs from Michael's is in his last sentence where he says, "the true skill is, not in applying a specific move from the form when fighting". I would agree with that sentiment but would add that an even greater skill is to utilise the form when fighting without actually thinking about the form. :asian:

 

[Flying Crane]

The only part where our training differs from Michael's is in his last sentence where he says, "the true skill is, not in applying a specific move from the form when fighting". I would agree with that sentiment but would add that an even greater skill is to utilise the form when fighting without actually thinking about the form. :asian:

yes, I should clarify what I meant because you certainly can use specifics from the form when fighting and that may well be what happens. But I meant that you are not limited to needing to do that. Anything can come out in the response and it will be effective, regardless of whether it looks like something from the form or not.

 

[yak sao]

When I look at WC, I think of the forms, ( and to a lesser extent the chi sau sections ) as the traditional aspect of WC. That is to say, they should not be altered on a whim to suit someone's fancy.
Drills and lat sau though, are simply ways of expressing those forms in practical application, that is, bringing the principles to life.
I think there really isn't a problem with changing the order or sequences as long as principles are adhered to, and that's where the forms come in, to make sure we don't deviate from structure.
As for the chi sau sections, ( I am speaking from the standpopint of Leung Ting Wing Tsun and all its derivatives) I know they are a recent creation, relatively speaking, but I am slow to change them, as I think that a lot of thought and knowledge went into developing them and if I am having trouble with a particular sequence, that may indicate that I don't fully inderstand it yet. So rather than change it to suit me, I need to train it more to better understand it.

 

[geezer]

Yak, you and I seem to be of like minds here. For those familiar with "WT" and its offshoots, in the OP, I was mainly talking about the many versions of "Lat Sau" and similar supplemental drills. By contrast, the forms and, to a lesser degree, the Chi Sau "sections" are more fundamental in our lineage. Although those Chi Sau sections have gone though a lot of changes too... especially if you compare the Chinese, German, EBMAS and other variant versions.

 

[WC_lun]

Of course you need to be able to flow from one thing to another, and drilling sequences help instill that. However, keep in mind that "old style training" with much rote drilling is used to instill the concepts and principles into your body. It is one thing to understand strong body structure, it is something else entirely not to have to think about it because it is drilled into your body. Unfortunately, for a great majority of martial artist, myself included, it is impossile to train concepts and principles into body memory without tons and tons of relatively boring drilling. It is very easy to get bored and want to add another technique to the drill, when the original principle has not become second nature yet. In my opinion, a mark of an excellent teacher is one who both recognizes this and helps the student see it as well.

 

[mook jong man]

I get them to do the basic drills of chi sau and lap sau but these will also be mixed in with various traps ,continuous punch vs continuous punch or continuous punch vs continuous tan sau.
Sometimes also breaking off and going into random four corner deflection or random straight punches.
Mainly what I'm trying to develop is their ability to seamlessly transition from one technique to another and changing over from one side to another instantly and randomly by reflex.

 

[geezer]

Mainly what I'm trying to develop is their ability to seamlessly transition from one technique to another and changing over from one side to another instantly and randomly by reflex.

That's what I'm talkin' about!

 

[mook jong man]

That's what I'm talkin' about!

Another way I do it , is when working on traps in chi sau I make them execute the trap on my signal so they can't in anyway prepare to do the trap , they just have to do it.

I've had pretty good results with this method , my longest training student basically doesn't telegraph at all before he traps , it seems to eliminate that slight build up of muscular tension or change in the timing of the rolling cycle that signals an impending attack.

I do the same thing with lap sau , on my signal they will have to change to the other side while the punches are still coming at them , the changes back and forth from right to left Bong sau must be done quickly and believe this increases their hand speed , timing , and makes their moves a lot more fluid and flowing.