Some thoughts on motivations for training

[Tony Dismukes]

Those of us who train seriously in the martial arts have a variety of reasons for why we train. Self-defense. Physical fitness. Love of a cultural art. Competition. Social activity. Personal spiritual development. Just because it's fun. The list of possibilities is long and an individual practitioner will likely have a mix of motivations which will shift in importance over the years.

One motivation which doesn't seem to be discussed much is the drive for "mastery" - the desire to be really good at something. I think that for many (most? all?) people, there is a natural desire to be genuinely, undeniably, really good at something. Maybe it's playing guitar. Maybe it's Judo. Maybe it's fixing computers. Maybe it's baking a cake. Maybe it's gardening. Maybe it's juggling. Heck, maybe it's competitive cup stacking. Not everybody puts in the work to achieve this goal, but I think the desire is there.

There's probably some evolutionary psychology theory out there about why this should be so. I tend to steer clear of most evo psych because it can easily become untestable theorizing which ends up supporting the theorizer's prior assumptions about human nature. All I know is that when I drag myself in to the dojo for some particularly grueling training session on a day when I really felt more like staying home and playing video games, a significant portion of my motivation is the fact that I want to become better at my art than I currently am. It's not that I am particularly worried about being assaulted and needing that extra bit of training in order to defend myself. It's not that I want to win a trophy. It's not that I think I'm in bad physical shape and desperately need the exercise. I just want to get better at what I do. At the same time, I take a certain satisfaction in the skill and knowledge I've already achieved, even though I'm not content to stop with what I have.

I strongly suspect I'm not the only person this applies to.

There is another, related drive. It's the desire to be recognized by others as being really good at something. This isn't inherently a bad thing. We're social animals, and as much as we might like to pretend otherwise we are affected by the opinions of others. There is a certain satisfaction in being recognized for the work we have put in and the results we have accomplished.

Unfortunately, there is a danger that the desire for recognition as being good at something can interfere with the process of actually becoming good at that thing. There are many ways that can happen for a martial artist. We could avoid sparring sessions with those who might beat us (especially if they are lower ranked). We could avoid sparring on days when we feel under our physical peak, so as to not look bad. We could avoid any sort of training exercise where we might "fail" and look bad. We could avoid listening to and learning from students we think are beneath us. We could avoid admitting that we don't understand a certain topic within the arts as well as we think we should. We could break away from our teacher and promote ourselves to a fancy high rank. We could stay with our teacher and organization because we have a fancy high rank in that context and avoid starting over as a beginner somewhere else. The possibilities are endless.

I think it's fine to admit to ourselves that we like that little ego boost, that pat on the back when a teacher or a student or one of our peers says "Hey, you're really improving" or "You're really good at that" or "You really know what you're talking about." We just need to be careful that we don't let the desire for that positive reinforcement get in the way of our real goals.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Those of us who train seriously in the martial arts have a variety of reasons for why we train. Self-defense. Physical fitness. Love of a cultural art. Competition. Social activity. Personal spiritual development. Just because it's fun. The list of possibilities is long and an individual practitioner will likely have a mix of motivations which will shift in importance over the years.

One motivation which doesn't seem to be discussed much is the drive for "mastery" - the desire to be really good at something. I think that for many (most? all?) people, there is a natural desire to be genuinely, undeniably, really good at something. Maybe it's playing guitar. Maybe it's Judo. Maybe it's fixing computers. Maybe it's baking a cake. Maybe it's gardening. Maybe it's juggling. Heck, maybe it's competitive cup stacking. Not everybody puts in the work to achieve this goal, but I think the desire is there.

There's probably some evolutionary psychology theory out there about why this should be so. I tend to steer clear of most evo psych because it can easily become untestable theorizing which ends up supporting the theorizer's prior assumptions about human nature. All I know is that when I drag myself in to the dojo for some particularly grueling training session on a day when I really felt more like staying home and playing video games, a significant portion of my motivation is the fact that I want to become better at my art than I currently am. It's not that I am particularly worried about being assaulted and needing that extra bit of training in order to defend myself. It's not that I want to win a trophy. It's not that I think I'm in bad physical shape and desperately need the exercise. I just want to get better at what I do. At the same time, I take a certain satisfaction in the skill and knowledge I've already achieved, even though I'm not content to stop with what I have.

I strongly suspect I'm not the only person this applies to.

There is another, related drive. It's the desire to be recognized by others as being really good at something. This isn't inherently a bad thing. We're social animals, and as much as we might like to pretend otherwise we are affected by the opinions of others. There is a certain satisfaction in being recognized for the work we have put in and the results we have accomplished.

Unfortunately, there is a danger that the desire for recognition as being good at something can interfere with the process of actually becoming good at that thing. There are many ways that can happen for a martial artist. We could avoid sparring sessions with those who might beat us (especially if they are lower ranked). We could avoid sparring on days when we feel under our physical peak, so as to not look bad. We could avoid any sort of training exercise where we might "fail" and look bad. We could avoid listening to and learning from students we think are beneath us. We could avoid admitting that we don't understand a certain topic within the arts as well as we think we should. We could break away from our teacher and promote ourselves to a fancy high rank. We could stay with our teacher and organization because we have a fancy high rank in that context and avoid starting over as a beginner somewhere else. The possibilities are endless.

I think it's fine to admit to ourselves that we like that little ego boost, that pat on the back when a teacher or a student or one of our peers says "Hey, you're really improving" or "You're really good at that" or "You really know what you're talking about." We just need to be careful that we don't let the desire for that positive reinforcement get in the way of our real goals.

A few thoughts, in no specific order. (My students hate that.)

You are correct that many of us are motivated by the desire to be recognized as experts. In Spranger's model of motivators, this is the "individualistic" motivator (combined with the "theoretical" motivator in some cases). Individualistic means we want to be recognized for our own accomplishments in some way (not everyone is actually strongly motivated in this area, but it's fairly common as at least a secondary motivator). Theoretical means we love to know, and are motivated by learning and information. Theoretical is my primary motivator, and Individualistic is among my secondaries, so I love to be recognized for what I know. Thus, this entire paragraph (and my love of teaching).

And, yes, this desire for recognition - especially when combined with the Dunning-Kruger effect - can cause us to miss out on opportunities to learn. It can, in fact, cause us to step away from learning and move too quickly to teaching. Sometimes we try too hard to become that wise man on the mountain, forgetting that he probably never tried to be that. He was probably just a guy who liked living on a mountain who learned a lot and became really wise.

As for that desire to get really good, yes. After a point, most of us could stop going to classes and simply practice our moves from time to time and remain reasonably competent for defensive purposes. I know things that make me better at martial arts, but aren't really necessary for basic competency. I want to know more of those things. As an aside, I think this is why some very experienced instructors stop teaching beginning students: they are so focused on the depth of the art that they no longer like teaching the basics, so they either retire or just spend their time teaching instructors.

These seemingly disparate, but often not conflicting, motivations we experience are part of why the tag line for Shojin-ryu is "Self-Defense, Self-Discipline, Self-Development".

 

[Jenna]

Those of us who train seriously in the martial arts have a variety of reasons for why we train. Self-defense. Physical fitness. Love of a cultural art. Competition. Social activity. Personal spiritual development. Just because it's fun. The list of possibilities is long and an individual practitioner will likely have a mix of motivations which will shift in importance over the years.

One motivation which doesn't seem to be discussed much is the drive for "mastery" - the desire to be really good at something. I think that for many (most? all?) people, there is a natural desire to be genuinely, undeniably, really good at something. Maybe it's playing guitar. Maybe it's Judo. Maybe it's fixing computers. Maybe it's baking a cake. Maybe it's gardening. Maybe it's juggling. Heck, maybe it's competitive cup stacking. Not everybody puts in the work to achieve this goal, but I think the desire is there.

There's probably some evolutionary psychology theory out there about why this should be so. I tend to steer clear of most evo psych because it can easily become untestable theorizing which ends up supporting the theorizer's prior assumptions about human nature. All I know is that when I drag myself in to the dojo for some particularly grueling training session on a day when I really felt more like staying home and playing video games, a significant portion of my motivation is the fact that I want to become better at my art than I currently am. It's not that I am particularly worried about being assaulted and needing that extra bit of training in order to defend myself. It's not that I want to win a trophy. It's not that I think I'm in bad physical shape and desperately need the exercise. I just want to get better at what I do. At the same time, I take a certain satisfaction in the skill and knowledge I've already achieved, even though I'm not content to stop with what I have.

I strongly suspect I'm not the only person this applies to.

There is another, related drive. It's the desire to be recognized by others as being really good at something. This isn't inherently a bad thing. We're social animals, and as much as we might like to pretend otherwise we are affected by the opinions of others. There is a certain satisfaction in being recognized for the work we have put in and the results we have accomplished.

Unfortunately, there is a danger that the desire for recognition as being good at something can interfere with the process of actually becoming good at that thing. There are many ways that can happen for a martial artist. We could avoid sparring sessions with those who might beat us (especially if they are lower ranked). We could avoid sparring on days when we feel under our physical peak, so as to not look bad. We could avoid any sort of training exercise where we might "fail" and look bad. We could avoid listening to and learning from students we think are beneath us. We could avoid admitting that we don't understand a certain topic within the arts as well as we think we should. We could break away from our teacher and promote ourselves to a fancy high rank. We could stay with our teacher and organization because we have a fancy high rank in that context and avoid starting over as a beginner somewhere else. The possibilities are endless.

I think it's fine to admit to ourselves that we like that little ego boost, that pat on the back when a teacher or a student or one of our peers says "Hey, you're really improving" or "You're really good at that" or "You really know what you're talking about." We just need to be careful that we don't let the desire for that positive reinforcement get in the way of our real goals.

you are very observant and self reflective here Tony.. I like what you write thank you I am curious there was some thing in your training or dealing with people that spark off this mode of thought in you???

Anyway then I cannot give you "like" because like you say this would be flattering your ego haha.. no just joking .. I click like because I like your honesty and forthrightness x

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I am curious there was some thing in your training or dealing with people that spark off this mode of thought in you???

Nothing in particular. When I take the time to write up a post, I just like to bring up a viewpoint that hasn't been discussed to death already. I regularly see conversations about the problems with getting our ego caught up in looking for recognition, but I don't often see discussion of the general drive towards mastery or its relationship with the desire for recognition of that mastery.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nothing in particular. When I take the time to write up a post, I just like to bring up a viewpoint that hasn't been discussed to death already. I regularly see conversations about the problems with getting our ego caught up in looking for recognition, but I don't often see discussion of the general drive towards mastery or its relationship with the desire for recognition of that mastery.

Are you implying that things can get discussed to death here on MT? A shocking viewpoint, Tony!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Are you implying that things can get discussed to death here on MT? A shocking viewpoint, Tony!

Oh, perish the thought! I must have been referring to all those other forums out there. I'm sure everyone here is much to sensible to argue the same points over and over and over again in thread after thread after thread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh, perish the thought! I must have been referring to all those other forums out there. I'm sure everyone here is much to sensible to argue the same points over and over and over again in thread after thread after thread.

I certainly am.

(Hey, stop looking back at my posts for the month! Don't fact-check me!!)

 

[wingchun100]

Those of us who train seriously in the martial arts have a variety of reasons for why we train. Self-defense. Physical fitness. Love of a cultural art. Competition. Social activity. Personal spiritual development. Just because it's fun. The list of possibilities is long and an individual practitioner will likely have a mix of motivations which will shift in importance over the years.

One motivation which doesn't seem to be discussed much is the drive for "mastery" - the desire to be really good at something. I think that for many (most? all?) people, there is a natural desire to be genuinely, undeniably, really good at something. Maybe it's playing guitar. Maybe it's Judo. Maybe it's fixing computers. Maybe it's baking a cake. Maybe it's gardening. Maybe it's juggling. Heck, maybe it's competitive cup stacking. Not everybody puts in the work to achieve this goal, but I think the desire is there.

There's probably some evolutionary psychology theory out there about why this should be so. I tend to steer clear of most evo psych because it can easily become untestable theorizing which ends up supporting the theorizer's prior assumptions about human nature. All I know is that when I drag myself in to the dojo for some particularly grueling training session on a day when I really felt more like staying home and playing video games, a significant portion of my motivation is the fact that I want to become better at my art than I currently am. It's not that I am particularly worried about being assaulted and needing that extra bit of training in order to defend myself. It's not that I want to win a trophy. It's not that I think I'm in bad physical shape and desperately need the exercise. I just want to get better at what I do. At the same time, I take a certain satisfaction in the skill and knowledge I've already achieved, even though I'm not content to stop with what I have.

I strongly suspect I'm not the only person this applies to.

There is another, related drive. It's the desire to be recognized by others as being really good at something. This isn't inherently a bad thing. We're social animals, and as much as we might like to pretend otherwise we are affected by the opinions of others. There is a certain satisfaction in being recognized for the work we have put in and the results we have accomplished.

Unfortunately, there is a danger that the desire for recognition as being good at something can interfere with the process of actually becoming good at that thing. There are many ways that can happen for a martial artist. We could avoid sparring sessions with those who might beat us (especially if they are lower ranked). We could avoid sparring on days when we feel under our physical peak, so as to not look bad. We could avoid any sort of training exercise where we might "fail" and look bad. We could avoid listening to and learning from students we think are beneath us. We could avoid admitting that we don't understand a certain topic within the arts as well as we think we should. We could break away from our teacher and promote ourselves to a fancy high rank. We could stay with our teacher and organization because we have a fancy high rank in that context and avoid starting over as a beginner somewhere else. The possibilities are endless.

I think it's fine to admit to ourselves that we like that little ego boost, that pat on the back when a teacher or a student or one of our peers says "Hey, you're really improving" or "You're really good at that" or "You really know what you're talking about." We just need to be careful that we don't let the desire for that positive reinforcement get in the way of our real goals.

The odd thing for me is that, while I want to be good at Wing Chun, I get embarrassed when people tell me I am really good at something.

I fall more into the category of needing to master it. To me, Wing Chun is no different than other artistic things in which I engage. I write and play guitar. Even though I am using the same words and chords as thousands (millions?) of others who came before me, I am always struggling to find a way to use those same tools to express who I am. I am doing the exact same thing with Wing Chun: using the same punches, blocks and kicks to create my OWN interpretation of the art.

To me, it is exactly what Bruce Lee called it: "the art of expressing the human body."

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The odd thing for me is that, while I want to be good at Wing Chun, I get embarrassed when people tell me I am really good at something.

Sometimes that can be because we set high standards for ourselves. When someone compliments us and we know we haven't met those standards yet it can be hard to accept the praise.

On the other hand, some people just aren't comfortable accepting compliments. Someone has to be on the opposite end of the spectrum from Donald Trump, after all.

I fall more into the category of needing to master it. To me, Wing Chun is no different than other artistic things in which I engage. I write and play guitar. Even though I am using the same words and chords as thousands (millions?) of others who came before me, I am always struggling to find a way to use those same tools to express who I am. I am doing the exact same thing with Wing Chun: using the same punches, blocks and kicks to create my OWN interpretation of the art.

To me, it is exactly what Bruce Lee called it: "the art of expressing the human body."

I like this perspective. It's sort of where I am in my training.


BTW - did you know the link to your website in your signature is broken? The visible text is correct, but the actual link is pointing to www.mrstevegrogan.com, which is apparently not an active domain.

 

[wingchun100]

BTW - did you know the link to your website in your signature is broken? The visible text is correct, but the actual link is pointing to www.mrstevegrogan.com, which is apparently not an active domain.

Damn that thing.

Hold on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The odd thing for me is that, while I want to be good at Wing Chun, I get embarrassed when people tell me I am really good at something.

My wife is the same way. I prefer my praise in front of an audience of thousands, with cannon-fire and much hyperbole. She prefers hers to show up quietly in an email, preferably phrased as something like, "Thanks. That helped."

I fall more into the category of needing to master it. To me, Wing Chun is no different than other artistic things in which I engage. I write and play guitar. Even though I am using the same words and chords as thousands (millions?) of others who came before me, I am always struggling to find a way to use those same tools to express who I am. I am doing the exact same thing with Wing Chun: using the same punches, blocks and kicks to create my OWN interpretation of the art.

To me, it is exactly what Bruce Lee called it: "the art of expressing the human body."

I wouldn't have "gotten" that 15 years ago. Today, I do. I dig deep into the nuances of my art now, and see more and more of my own expression showing up.

 

[wingchun100]

BTW - did you know the link to your website in your signature is broken? The visible text is correct, but the actual link is pointing to www.mrstevegrogan.com, which is apparently not an active domain.

It should work now.

 

[Buka]

Those of us who train seriously in the martial arts have a variety of reasons for why we train. Self-defense. Physical fitness. Love of a cultural art. Competition. Social activity. Personal spiritual development. Just because it's fun. The list of possibilities is long and an individual practitioner will likely have a mix of motivations which will shift in importance over the years.

One motivation which doesn't seem to be discussed much is the drive for "mastery" - the desire to be really good at something. I think that for many (most? all?) people, there is a natural desire to be genuinely, undeniably, really good at something. Maybe it's playing guitar. Maybe it's Judo. Maybe it's fixing computers. Maybe it's baking a cake. Maybe it's gardening. Maybe it's juggling. Heck, maybe it's competitive cup stacking. Not everybody puts in the work to achieve this goal, but I think the desire is there.

There's probably some evolutionary psychology theory out there about why this should be so. I tend to steer clear of most evo psych because it can easily become untestable theorizing which ends up supporting the theorizer's prior assumptions about human nature. All I know is that when I drag myself in to the dojo for some particularly grueling training session on a day when I really felt more like staying home and playing video games, a significant portion of my motivation is the fact that I want to become better at my art than I currently am. It's not that I am particularly worried about being assaulted and needing that extra bit of training in order to defend myself. It's not that I want to win a trophy. It's not that I think I'm in bad physical shape and desperately need the exercise. I just want to get better at what I do. At the same time, I take a certain satisfaction in the skill and knowledge I've already achieved, even though I'm not content to stop with what I have.

I strongly suspect I'm not the only person this applies to.

There is another, related drive. It's the desire to be recognized by others as being really good at something. This isn't inherently a bad thing. We're social animals, and as much as we might like to pretend otherwise we are affected by the opinions of others. There is a certain satisfaction in being recognized for the work we have put in and the results we have accomplished.

Unfortunately, there is a danger that the desire for recognition as being good at something can interfere with the process of actually becoming good at that thing. There are many ways that can happen for a martial artist. We could avoid sparring sessions with those who might beat us (especially if they are lower ranked). We could avoid sparring on days when we feel under our physical peak, so as to not look bad. We could avoid any sort of training exercise where we might "fail" and look bad. We could avoid listening to and learning from students we think are beneath us. We could avoid admitting that we don't understand a certain topic within the arts as well as we think we should. We could break away from our teacher and promote ourselves to a fancy high rank. We could stay with our teacher and organization because we have a fancy high rank in that context and avoid starting over as a beginner somewhere else. The possibilities are endless.

I think it's fine to admit to ourselves that we like that little ego boost, that pat on the back when a teacher or a student or one of our peers says "Hey, you're really improving" or "You're really good at that" or "You really know what you're talking about." We just need to be careful that we don't let the desire for that positive reinforcement get in the way of our real goals.

You're a damn fool, Tony Dismukes, but I think I've told you that already.
And you know, why, don't you? That opening post is just further proof.
And come to think about it, you're selfish, too.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You're a damn fool, Tony Dismukes, but I think I've told you that already.
And you know, why, don't you? That opening post is just further proof.
And come to think about it, you're selfish, too.

If you're talkng about the fact that I need to get back to writing more, you're absolutely correct. I just need to get my energy and focus going a bit more than I have lately.

 

[drop bear]

Nothing in particular. When I take the time to write up a post, I just like to bring up a viewpoint that hasn't been discussed to death already. I regularly see conversations about the problems with getting our ego caught up in looking for recognition, but I don't often see discussion of the general drive towards mastery or its relationship with the desire for recognition of that mastery.

So we are back to courting loss.

Within a fight team it is kind of a wierd dynamic. to beat the guy you are supposed to fight your friends have to find ways to bash and embarrass you. the issue is being the best guy in the room.

this came up. we had a gun fighter who could towel everybody up. and he was getting concerned that he would not develop the skills needed. He was worried he was looking too good.

It got resolved by sending a fresh guy in every minute to even up the odds. after five rounds everybody was tapping him out and beating him up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

really good at something.

That's how I feel too. When I was 7, I used to put a small rock among my 3 finger tips. I squeezed it everyday. Hoped one day I could squeeze that small rock into powder.

To be able to do at least 1 thing good is always my life time goal.