Some grappling advice please.

[K-man]

Good thing from here is that you have a hand on his weapon bearing arm. Bad thing is that you are still in a scramble and have to improve your position to do anything. I would be working my way up the body on the same side for a chance at better position and stronger control of his weapon bearing arm. Preferably I would try to improve my right hand position so that it would allow me more control (as Hanzou mentioned) and I would then move my right knee up on the side of his body. Then I would place my left knee, shin on his knife bearing arm. Which would mean I have and arm and a leg on his knife bearing arm. A few headbutts later and I would take the knife. Of course I have to keep him from putting me in the half guard as I move up his body. If he does that my job just became really hard!

I can show you exactly what I mean this summer when we meet and train!

I'll try playing around with these thoughts again next week. It becomes interesting training for all my guys when something a little out of the box shows up.

As for summer, I've got some really bad news for you .... July 11th -12th is mid-winter out here.

 

[K-man]

Seems like priority number one would be to swim for the underhook on the far side, and move to mount. That could all be done while maintaining control of that knife hand. The position is very precarious, and it's screaming for the guy on the bottom to clear your hand off of his neck (easier to do than you might think) and take your back. Just my immediate thoughts. I'm very interested in seeing what you come up with, Tony.

Where I was he couldn't get my back and I always had the escape option, and as I said earlier, I could easily reach and grab his groin from where I was. I had limited ability to hit him or elbow though.

 

[K-man]

The instant you for the lock, you're committed to the knife limb. By default the other arm & the rest of the opponent's body are basically uncontrolled.

Yes but in reality the lock is a break. Compounding the problem here was the slippery wrist from perspiration.

I'm not sure how much the fact that I'm a striker primarily is recognized here--here's my answer. Use my hand at the neck to injure the head with blow or blows. The goal is the same applied goal for traditional karate. Disable your opponent quickly & efficiently. So if I KO the knife wielder, then his knife hand becomes moot.

OK, there may have been the opportunity for striking before we hit the deck but once down striking wouldn't have caused much damage unless I could get a bit of freedom, something I didn't have and couldn't get.

If I am able to stun or inflict pain that takes away his thought process, he's distracted, preoccupied by coping with pain or trauma from my strike or strike(s), then you grapplers can take over with technical propositions from there.

That would be my preferred option but we have to use what we are given and in this instance I wasn't holding any aces when we were on the ground.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes. But you have to move that arm with your body behind it. No getting around that. You can pin it to the ground but you cant lock it up.

You can get around it by going for Mount or Side mount instead of a scarf hold. Preferably ending in something like this;

 

[K-man]

My assessment is striking to accomplish what I said. Whatever I have to do to make the disabling strike, strikes >> move, shift, jump up and land a knee to the stomach first--I'm going to do. I can hit before I shift or move, I can hit several time before I more or shift, I can hit once & shift or move to hit again from a better angle or hit another target. KIME here is key. Making your strike(s) count is what traditional karate trains for. That's my assessment.

As Chris Parker said, you have no time it's a tenuous position.

Easier to say than to do. I couldn't get into a good striking position without releasing the knife hand. If I did release the knife hand and jump up I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to put my knee on his stomach. You would be stabbed multiple times before you could land even one punch and even then it's not so simple to land punches from that position.

 

[K-man]

Wereyou elbowing
Him in the face aface

Welcome to MT.

No. If you look at the photo I posted I couldn't even punch him in the face, let alone elbow him.

 

[K-man]

Here are a couple of images that kind of show the danger of giving up the underhook on the far side and not establishing sound positional control. One is from half guard and the other from side control, similar to where you are at, K-man. What comes next in each of these cases is that the person on the bottom will create space by hipping back away from you (if you're creating space for them, it's even easier) and using that space to reverse the position and take control of your back.

The knife makes this even more dangerous for you, because as you lose control of the bottom guy's hips, you're also going to have less leverage to control his near side arm. I'd guess that before he even takes your back, he'll have enough leverage to clear his hand and stab you somewhere bad.

He was trying to hip away but I had no trouble following him. Of course that is the problem with one of the earlier thoughts of adopting a perpendicular position which is fine in theory but I couldn't get my torso over his chest.

 

[K-man]

Catching you in guard would have worked against him.

Maybe, but it was also restricting my ability to escape.

 

[drop bear]

You can get around it by going for Mount or Side mount instead of a scarf hold. Preferably ending in something like this;

With the knife near your face?

And yes that is an option.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Yes but in reality the lock is a break. Compounding the problem here was the slippery wrist from perspiration.

OK, there may have been the opportunity for striking before we hit the deck but once down striking wouldn't have caused much damage unless I could get a bit of freedom, something I didn't have and couldn't get.

That would be my preferred option but we have to use what we are given and in this instance I wasn't holding any aces when we were on the ground.

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I keep going back & studying the photo. You've posed a great training scenario. I'll have more to say, continually thinking it through.... Thanks

 

[Steve]

He was trying to hip away but I had no trouble following him. Of course that is the problem with one of the earlier thoughts of adopting a perpendicular position which is fine in theory but I couldn't get my torso over his chest.

knife guy should be hipping out and up onto his right hip, using the undertook you're giving him by messing with trying to choke him with your hand. the goal of creating space isn't to expect it to maintain space. It's to get up onto his hip and off of his back. From there, it really doesn't matter if you can follow him. Driving into him, in fact, without securing your undertook with your right arm/his left, makes taking your back or reversing the position easier. Also, I gaurantee you that you will quickly feel out of control and forget that knife.

Tony makes a good,point in that if you are both untrained, you can likely pop back to your feet and kick the dude or flee. Otherwise, I really don't think you realize how illusory your feelings of security are in that pic.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Yes but in reality the lock is a break. Compounding the problem here was the slippery wrist from perspiration.

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Same end goal as my strike plan....

OK, there may have been the opportunity for striking before we hit the deck but once down striking wouldn't have caused much damage unless I could get a bit of freedom, something I didn't have and couldn't get.

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throat hand is the weapon.... the principle is 1-steps, or basic kata bunkai. I definitely believe damage could be done. As defender, am I in a good position, No. More accurately, not in a good position to start (anything as posters have commented).

That would be my preferred option but we have to use what we are given and in this instance I wasn't holding any aces when we were on the ground.

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This is why I choose a striking-based art. Ground striking then becomes an adaptation.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Easier to say than to do.

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Absolutely easier said than done.... I really like the reality-testing of this scenario.... That's what all the debate is / was about....

I couldn't get into a good striking position without releasing the knife hand.

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I would never release the knife hand. The throat hand is the weapon. Moreover, body positioning out-of-kilter aside, the the throat hand is proximate to the vulnerable & controlling target >> head area....

If I did release the knife hand and jump up I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to put my knee on his stomach. You would be stabbed multiple times before you could land even one punch and even then it's not so simple to land punches from that position.

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I wouldn't be placing my knee anywhere as any end goal. I wouldn't be releasing the knife hand for anything. I would never be interested in grappling (myself) rolling on the ground mobility compromised against a guy with a knife.
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I'm going to do harm (by strike or strikes) that disables the ability of the assailant to direct the use of that knife. The knife can stay in his hand 'cause his head area is going to be so damaged he's going to undergo the reverse of "mental clarity." His arm will end in the functioning category of limp & dead to response.

 

[drop bear]

knife guy should be hipping out and up onto his right hip, using the undertook you're giving him by messing with trying to choke him with your hand. the goal of creating space isn't to expect it to maintain space. It's to get up onto his hip and off of his back. From there, it really doesn't matter if you can follow him. Driving into him, in fact, without securing your undertook with your right arm/his left, makes taking your back or reversing the position easier. Also, I gaurantee you that you will quickly feel out of control and forget that knife.

Tony makes a good,point in that if you are both untrained, you can likely pop back to your feet and kick the dude or flee. Otherwise, I really don't think you realize how illusory your feelings of security are in that pic.

My big fear is that ha follows you up.

Scoot around so your pop up puts you last point of contact puts your foot on his wrist?

 

[drop bear]

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Absolutely easier said than done.... I really like the reality-testing of this scenario.... That's what all the debate is / was about....

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I would never release the knife hand. The throat hand is the weapon. Moreover, body positioning out-of-kilter aside, the the throat hand is proximate to the vulnerable & controlling target >> head area....

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I wouldn't be placing my knee anywhere as any end goal. I wouldn't be releasing the knife hand for anything. I would never be interested in grappling (myself) rolling on the ground mobility compromised against a guy with a knife.
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I'm going to do harm (by strike or strikes) that disables the ability of the assailant to direct the use of that knife. The knife can stay in his hand 'cause his head area is going to be so damaged he's going to undergo the reverse of "mental clarity." His arm will end in the functioning category of limp & dead to response.

[/QUOTE]

Ok here is the basic grappling dichotomy. If you are in a scramble you can either hit the guy or hold him down but not both.

Unless you are in mount. Which is why it is used.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ok here is the basic grappling dichotomy. If you are in a scramble you can either hit the guy or hold him down but not both.

Unless you are in mount. Which is why it is used.

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Right. I keep looking @ the picture. The starting position to strike from is very limiting.... My feeling is the initial strikes (say 2) are going to distract & hurt allowing me to move incrementally higher & power strike then.
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The tactical goal is once the assailant is majorly stunned (even), the finish is downhill from there. The arms & body lose their potency to make any meaningful response....
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Your / my counterstrike assault must be continuous until finish. Taikyoku kata explains this....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm beginning to get the grappler approach. thanks all for the lesson. still looking over....
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P.S. I get the reality-based 'pop-up,' stomp on crotch & run. My instinct is to finish on ground, permanently....

 

[Hanzou]

With the knife near your face?

And yes that is an option.

The knife isn't near your face. Additionally, you're controlling his knife arm with both your arms and your body weight.

Another angle;

My big fear is that ha follows you up.

Scoot around so your pop up puts you last point of contact puts your foot on his wrist?

That's a good point. Also depending on where you pop up, and his level of training, he can sweep you off your feet while still on his back. If Kman pops up near his legs, he's in prime position to get his legs kicked out, and swept.

 

[Instructor]

Against a trained grappler that isn't as easy as it sounds. This is really the first time I haven't been able to get a good position and the disarm, hence the thread. My partner was using his legs to keep me from gaining position and at the same time threatening to catch me in his guard. I'm starting to think my best option may have been to get up, perhaps give him a good kick to a leg and get away.

Getting free and running away is a perfectly valid defense. Keep us posted on your progress. Some video of the solution would be fantastic. I've learned that against a skilled grappler very little is as it seems.

I am sort of surprised by the reception my ideas had on this thread. If a person attacks you with a knife and it ends up in them seems like a reasonable exchange to me. Of course ideally nobody would get harmed but let's face it, this is a life and death knife fight on the ground, which is about a hairy of fight as it get's. It might come down to it being you or them.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hip out should break the throat grip.

Ok. What if we didn't? He is trying to re guard then let him. Downward elbows and a keylock.

I would not advocate letting him put you into the half guard or full guard nor popping up to knee on stomach. (to much potential space on knee on stomach) Unless you pop up to knee on stomach and place your leg/shin nearest to the knife bearing hand on his forearm on the knife bearing hand. (then it works) Nor would I advocate changing my body position to the opposite side in crossbody/side control. To much movement, potential space and during that movement I may lose control of his knife bearing hand or be swept/reversed and now fighting from my back. The easiest, most efficient method is to simply move up his body with off hand getting an underhook and maintain control of his knife bearing hand and then place your left shin also on his knife bearing arm. Then headbutt that guy unconscious and or bite his face off or neck/ear and then take the knife. Simple and efficient!

Tony mentioned above that if you did not have grappling experience of getting up and kicking them in the crotch before they get up. I wouldn't advocate that as you already have grabbed his knife hand. You have achieved one of the most difficult things to achieve already. You simply would not want to give that up. Could it work if you kick them in the crotch, sure as anything is possible but is it in your best interest, probably not! You may kick him in the crotch or face and just piss him off! You, voluntarily gave up control of that knife hand and you will probably have to "run the gauntlet" again to achieve some semblance of similar control. Your chances have been reduced a lot. You may not be able to run away as well he may be faster than you! If you have some semblance of control you try to achieve more control and dominate from there. If it does go somewhere else then you deal with that but otherwise dominate from where you are at in this position by moving up on the same side of his knife bearing arm.

Now in IRT we grapple with knives a lot and is an eye opener when you do not have the knife. I will utilize Brazilian Jiujitsu movement with some modifications but I also look to some Silat and southern Philippines grappling as well. Limb placement on arms or walking the body is essential. I learned this also in Budo Taijutsu from Doron Navon when grappling on the ground with weapons and empty hands.

Bottom line if they have the knife, you need to neutralize them quickly! If you do not, your probably dead or seriously maimed! You simply do not have a lot of time and or any need to do some thing complicated. Just keep it simple!