Socialism

[CuongNhuka]

sorry, diregard.

 

[CuongNhuka]

sorry, disregard.

 

[CuongNhuka]

sorry, disregard

 

[Empty Hands]

The problem with a totally socialistic society - one in which everyone gets what they need and the community provides - is that it is either all or nothing.

That IS communism. A socialist country does not completely exclude private industry, or private ownership.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think that people need to remember that the US already is a socialist country. We have all sorts of social programs already in existence, just not to the extent that many European countries have established.

Right or wrong, this is the truth.

A couple of more points...

1. If our country truly valued the individual over the needs of the state or society, then there would be no social programs. Everyone would take care of themselves. There'd be no police force, firemen, military, teachers, or doctors except for what people on the local level decided to support. If you don't have the resources for those things, then you don't have those things.

2. When you privitize social services on the national level, you are not fitting any capitalistic model or valueing individual freedom. You are actually engaging in another form of socialism called corporatism. This happens when private industry takes control of the large state functions that are normally associated with large government states.

3. I think we might all be able to agree that a certain amount of socialism is needed. The degree is where we differ.

 

[Archangel M]

No. We have social programs. Our society isnt a socialist system. Theres a big difference.

 

[Makalakumu]

No. We have social programs. Our society isnt a socialist system. Theres a big difference.

The intent behind social programs is socialism. The idea that everyone is responsible for everyone is a socialist idea.

This contrasts with contrasts with individualism in which one is only responsible for themselves.

A good example of this is education. In our country, k-12 education is free for all citizens. We pay for this via a progressive tax system where the wealthy pay a greater percentage of the burden.

"To each according to their need, from each according to their means."

What isn't socialist about that?

 

[CoryKS]

I have read Socialist views. I have read the policy and platform of several Socialist Parties, read exerts from Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, and so on, I have read the writing of others in the Socialistic currents. One of my favorite teachers is a Socialist, and we would have discussions on the matter 3-4 times a week, for the last two years. I am well versed in what it is to be a Socialist.

You have read theories of socialism. You have read the writings of men who didn't have to live with the repercussions of their ideas. Marx never lived in a socialist country. Lenin and Trotsky? Well, it's good to be the king (except for Trotsky; tough break there). Your favorite teacher is a "Socialist" who lives in a capitalist country and, like you, knows of it only what he has read.

I have friends who lived in Russia when it was the USSR. I know a Cuban family who built a boat to get to Florida. I have a Vietnamese coworker who can tell you all about his two weeks floating on the sea in a boat filled with dead and dying people waiting for someone to pick them up. The most telling thing about your socialist utopia is that nobody has tried to build a boat out of a pickup truck to get in.

Read Heaven and Earth: The Rise and Fall of Socialism. Muravchik was a third-generation Socialist whose grandparents were members of the Russian Socialist Revolutionaries before emigrating to the USA. He was a member of the Socialist Party and headed its youth wing. He has studied every attempt to make socialism work - in Europe, in the kibbutzim of Israel, in 19th century US communes. The best part was reading the letters between Robert Owen and his leaders complaining about the failures of their socialist experiment and realizing that it sounded just like this Onion article.

Finally, I want to point out again that you are about to enter what is probably the closest thing to working socialism you'll ever see. Assuming you went "open contract", you will be tested on a range of abilities and assigned a job based on your aptitudes. You will be paid the same rate as every other service member at your rank regardless of job; an E-3 infantryman makes exactly the same amount as an E-3 programmer. You will receive three meals a day and a place to live (which you will be required to clean and submit for inspection each week). You will do your assigned job, plus any other job that they require. Your medical and dental needs will be met by the good Navy folks at the base clinic. You will receive your orders from a superior, who will in turn receive orders from his superior, on up to a central point. You will do what your told, and you won't have the opportunity to discuss it. As I've said before, many people thrive in this setting. Others chafe at having their lives controlled to that degree. Most can ride it out for the 4-8 years they have signed up for. But remember this: if, at any time during your tour, you find yourself counting down the days until your EAS (end of active service) so you can get OUT of here, ask yourself how you'd feel if there was no EAS. That is what you socialists are proposing.

 

[CuongNhuka]

You have read theories of socialism. You have read the writings of men who didn't have to live with the repercussions of their ideas. Marx never lived in a socialist country. Lenin and Trotsky? Well, it's good to be the king (except for Trotsky; tough break there). Your favorite teacher is a "Socialist" who lives in a capitalist country and, like you, knows of it only what he has read.

OK, I'm sick of trying to explain this part to people. I will say this ONE LAST time. USSR, Cuba, and Vietnam are NOT Socialistic or Communistic. They are fascists. They are dictators, they are NOT in anyway Socialists, and are NOT in anyway shape or form Communistic. Everything you have heard to the contrary is because of the brain washing you got during the "Cold War".

However, Swizterland is a Socialistic country and are one of the wealthiest countries on the planet.

 

[Archangel M]

Im getting sick of a few things too.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have. I've spent two years studying Socialism from the web, books, and talking to actual Socialist. That's why I know that I'm probably the only one on this site who has. People here have the fun habbit of posting what they think from assumption and and the brain washing they got in the "Cold War". If they did any real research, they'd be as offended by there posts as I am.

I was not going to post again here and after this I will not but this deserves a response

First you make an awful lot of assumptions for one so young and inexperienced

2 whole years study, talked to an actual socialist... I am wholly unimpressed and any offense was from your calling those that did not agree with you a liar and not attempting to refute anything posted. I have taken no offense to any of your posts on the topic.

Now sonny for your information my wife spent over 30 years living in a communist nation, I have a lot of relatives that still live there and I have actually been there myself. I have had multiple professors, from my college days, that were from both socialist and communist nations (they were actually born and raised there, not born in the US and became socialists or communists because it was cool and a great way to impress chicks), I even had one that lived in Germany before, during and after WW II, you want an eye opening conversation talk to someone that lived through that.. in Berlin. I have had, and have, friends coworkers from both socialist and communist nations and here’s a bit of info I have actually talked to all of them and I even talked to them about their governments.

You have a lot to learn

This is my last post here.

 

[Makalakumu]

USSR, Cuba, and Vietnam are NOT Socialistic or Communistic. They are fascists. They are dictators, they are NOT in anyway Socialists, and are NOT in anyway shape or form Communistic.

Fascism can be more properly called Corporatism. Calling historical communisit powers fascist is not neccessarily true.

Historically, corporatism or corporativism (Italian: corporativismo) refers to a political or economic system in which power is given to civic assemblies that represent economic, industrial, agrarian, social, cultural, and professional groups. These civic assemblies are known as corporations (not necessarily the business model known as a 'corporation', though such businesses are not excluded from the definition either). Corporations are unelected bodies with an internal hierarchy; their purpose is to exert control over the social and economic life of their respective areas. Thus, for example, a steel corporation would be a cartel composed of all the business leaders in the steel industry, coming together to discuss a common policy on prices and wages. When the political and economic power of a country rests in the hands of such groups, then a corporatist system is in place.

The word "corporatism" is derived from the Latin word for body, corpus. This meaning was not connected with the specific notion of a business corporation, but rather a general reference to anything collected as a body. Its usage reflects medieval European concepts of a whole society in which the various components - e.g., guilds, universities, monasteries, the various estates, etc. - each play a part in the life of the society, just as the various parts of the body serve specific roles in the life of a body. According to various theorists, corporatism was an attempt to create a modern version of feudalism by merging the "corporate" interests with those of the state.[citation needed]

It became popular during the rule of Getulio Vargas in Brazil during the 1920s and 1930s when issues of social welfare arose.[citation needed] He implemented a form that promoted what was then referred to as modern capitalism. Its objective was to be moderate, and not completely open to free markets. Corporativism, on the other hand, did not want complete state rule. It was during the early 1900s when Spain, Portugal, and Italy were testing this ideology.[citation needed]

Political scientists may also use the term corporatism to describe a practice whereby a state, through the process of licensing and regulating officially-incorporated social, religious, economic, or popular organizations, effectively co-opts their leadership or circumscribes their ability to challenge state authority by establishing the state as the source of their legitimacy, as well as sometimes running them, either directly or indirectly through corporations. This usage is particularly common in the area of East Asian studies, and is sometimes also referred to as state corporatism. Some analysts have applied the term neocorporatism to certain practices in Western European countries, such the Proporz system in Austria.[1] At a popular level in recent years "corporatism" has been used to mean the promotion of the interests of private corporations in government over the interests of the public.

The banner that all of this more properly falls under is collectivism.

Collectivism is a term used to describe any moral, political, or social outlook, that stresses human interdependence and the importance of a collective, rather than the importance of separate individuals. Collectivists focus on community and society, and seek to give priority to group goals over individual goals.[1] The philosophical underpinnings of collectivism are for some related to holism or organicism - the view that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Specifically, a society as a whole can be seen as having more meaning or value than the separate individuals that make up that society. [2] Collectivism is widely seen as being diametrically opposed to individualism. Notably these views are almost always combined in systems.

 

[Mr G]

These -ism debates always seem to focus on the extremes. All capitalism vs all socialism. neither is wrong. neither is right.

For example: I don't want a capitalist running the police force. (We only defend the highest bidder.) I don't want a socialist police car. (We produce want you need, and we decide what you need)

The world needs a balance. Think yin-and-yang. And the culture help sort out the balance.

 

[Tez3]

I was not going to post again here and after this I will not but this deserves a response

First you make an awful lot of assumptions for one so young and inexperienced

2 whole years study, talked to an actual socialist... I am wholly unimpressed and any offense was from your calling those that did not agree with you a liar and not attempting to refute anything posted. I have taken no offense to any of your posts on the topic.

Now sonny for your information my wife spent over 30 years living in a communist nation, I have a lot of relatives that still live there and I have actually been there myself. I have had multiple professors, from my college days, that were from both socialist and communist nations (they were actually born and raised there, not born in the US and became socialists or communists because it was cool and a great way to impress chicks), I even had one that lived in Germany before, during and after WW II, you want an eye opening conversation talk to someone that lived through that.. in Berlin. I have had, and have, friends coworkers from both socialist and communist nations and here’s a bit of info I have actually talked to all of them and I even talked to them about their governments.

You have a lot to learn

This is my last post here.

Ah to be young and passionate about politics again! it's what the young do though isn't, before real life sets in and we become cynical and tired by trying to earn a living. It's why students are the ones who demonstrate and try to change the world.
What they believe may be idealistic but thank goodness for wanting to change the world!

 

[Twin Fist]

tying to change the world, when you dont know enough to make a sound decision has the potential to be a very, very bad thing. that's why most people ignore them when the kids start trying to talk out thier butts........

 

[Marginal]

Once again, for those who weren't bright enough to comprehend it the first thousand times:
In a PERFECT world, full of PERFECT people, communism or its ugly sister socialism would be wonderful. However, we do NOT live in a perfect world and many of those who expouse socialism, are as far from perfect as the rest of us.

Human nature is constant regardless of the economic system.

 

[Tez3]

tying to change the world, when you dont know enough to make a sound decision has the potential to be a very, very bad thing. that's why most people ignore them when the kids start trying to talk out thier butts........

Mmm at least the young have an excuse.......

 

[Andy Moynihan]

How's that go again about youth is wasted on the young?

 

[Tez3]

How's that go again about youth is wasted on the young?

LOL I thought the saying was 'you are only as old as the person you feel'.

Young people should be idealistic and not old fogies in a young skin.
We should also bear in mind that while the 'oldies' make the decisions it's the young that are dying and being maimed as a result of them. You don't have the old soldiers out there fighting the battles and as the OP is going to be putting his life on the line for his country (and the oldies) I think he deserves more respect for his views even if you don't agree with them. After all isn't it freedom, free speech and democracy he'll be fighting for?

 

[Twin Fist]

oh Tez, again with the sly insults. typical of you