So, Sword Duels do still happen nowadays?

[Maching]

I didn't think anyone dueled anymore. Got to searching around the web and came across something..."Dominican Machete Fighters." Seems they still duke it out with swords there. If this is true, why does it seem no one knows about them and only knows about the Filipino blade arts and Japanese sword fighting?

I could only find one book on the Dominican thing...but there are countless materials on the other stuff. From what I gather the Japanese sword fighting and FIlippino fighting doesn't actual fight anymore...but these guys in the Dominican test their stuff "live."

If this is true why is it such a mystery or is it just too dangerous to look into it more (if they are actually chopping each other up over there)?

 

[Langenschwert]

Was that the Papa Machete video? Pretty neat little mini-doc.

Rural areas all over the world still settle disputes with longer blades like machetes and whatnot. Up until WWII, there were fraternal duels in Germany (mensur duelling) which were formalized affairs designed to give the participants a scar on the face known as a "schmiss". People still do epee duels with "points d'arret" to keep the tip from penetrating very far, so just a small amount of blood is drawn. There are a few old masters of sword & buckler left in the mountains of the Georgian Republic, complete with missing fingers:

 

[Maching]

That is interesting but was talking about this:

From Machete Fights to Paradise The Machete Fighters of the Dominican Republic Daniel Dimarzio 9781300348146 Amazon.com Books

and this:

They actually maim and kill each other their quite often in sword/knife duels...I believe it from those videos. Wouldn't take much for them to have turned out deadly. Imagine what you don't see on camera.

 

[Blindside]

Watch when the guy in the white shirt attacks, that isn't just wild flailing, he is mixing high and lowline striking, that isn't an accident, he has had training.

or watch this one:

I have never seen video of it happening, but I have heard of it still happening in the Philippines, some even fairly recently (last decade).

 

[Maching]

That is the point I am trying to make (Blindside)...they seem trained. I am glad you brought it up because from what I have read about this it seems to be overlooked. It seems to be common sense but if these people fight with long blades (machetes aka SWORDS) on a regular basis they must have developed some system to keep themselves alive in an actual encounter.

It is really interesting to me how popular the Filipino blade arts are...and the Japanese blade arts etc. when they are in no way tested like these people are doing in the Dominican. These guys in the Dominican are literally killing each other in duels...right now in 2015. And it is not some freak occurrence it happens regularly.

 

[Maching]

This seems to be the main source of info (there is not much out there):

Training in Dominican Martial Arts the Machete - Exploring the World Through Martial Arts

Machete Figthers - Exploring the World Through Martial Arts

The Problem with the Dominican Martial Arts - Exploring the World Through Martial Arts

Dominican Sword Fights - Exploring the World Through Martial Arts

 

[Langenschwert]

It's not like JSA wasn't tested in the past. There are only so many ways to use a bladed implement. When I watch the Papa Machete video, I see some techniques that are straight out of Leckuchner's 1482 manual on the messer and a liitle bit of Meyer. Machete fights still happen in the Philippines too.

That book looks super interesting. Some folks in the video look trained, and the guy with the wrapped arm reminded me of stuff I've seen in HEMA.

I'm not sure what you're getting at though. Yes, they're fighting with machetes. Yes, some look trained. It's not really a mystery. If you're going to walk around with a sword expecting to get into sword fights, you're going to train, or you won't be walking around getting into sword fights for very long. In our age of social media, these things are becoming more known. I don't think it's a deliberate "secret" though.

Is there a system? Most likely for some. The one guy did some sweet level changes. It's sad that they're so desperate that they have to go about hacking at each other. That's no way to live.

Any sword art that was used for real combat is going to look a fair amount like all the others. There's no "secret sauce" that the Dominicans have that others don't. They're just unfortunate enough to have to do it for real.

 

[Maching]

Langenschwert, I totally agree. I don't think one group of people have anything over another. I just found it interesting that many people claim this or that in regards to blade fighting and we finally have an example....HERE IT IS! Not the back in the day, or I heard my teacher did this or that type of thing. Here it is in video...you can see what a fight with a sword actually looks like. Probably not what most people would think, or would "like" it to look like. And these are only a glimpse into what actually goes on there...the really crazy stuff isn't on youtube.

In a way, it actually reminds me of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ). Back in the day nobody ever thought an incredible martial art would spring from Latin America and dominate all others. Yet, it did. It just took publicity to prove it. This reminds me of the same thing. It is not Asian or European...it is from Latin America and it reeks of authenticity. Yet, it is being ignored because why? Because it is from Latin America and the practitioners aren't Asian or white? Interesting to think about.

 

[Hyoho]

Watch when the guy in the white shirt attacks, that isn't just wild flailing, he is mixing high and lowline striking, that isn't an accident, he has had training.

or watch this one:

I have never seen video of it happening, but I have heard of it still happening in the Philippines, some even fairly recently (last decade).

Yes it does happen in the Philippines. My copra climber sliced up his neighbor last year. I use the word slice as his cuts were very precise. He hid on another island but came back and was forgiven after paying the other guys medical expenses. They use blades every single day. The women are just as adept as men. Even kids take bolo to school.

In the first video on the thread with the injury they appear to clashing blades and not actually attacking each other. Looks like Dominican guys don't sharpen blades like Filipino. My blades cleanly slice a 10 inch banana stem in one cut. Filipino tend to use a cut and twist action.

 

[Langenschwert]

Langenschwert, I totally agree. I don't think one group of people have anything over another. I just found it interesting that many people claim this or that in regards to blade fighting and we finally have an example....HERE IT IS! Not the back in the day, or I heard my teacher did this or that type of thing. Here it is in video...you can see what a fight with a sword actually looks like. Probably not what most people would think, or would "like" it to look like. And these are only a glimpse into what actually goes on there...the really crazy stuff isn't on youtube.

In a way, it actually reminds me of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ). Back in the day nobody ever thought an incredible martial art would spring from Latin America and dominate all others. Yet, it did. It just took publicity to prove it. This reminds me of the same thing. It is not Asian or European...it is from Latin America and it reeks of authenticity. Yet, it is being ignored because why? Because it is from Latin America and the practitioners aren't Asian or white? Interesting to think about.

Ah, OK.

It's like finding living dinosaurs or something, yeah? I can see the interest then, as in: how much do historical blade arts resemble what's being done today? The main difference I see is a lack of polish (level change guy excepted) in the machete fights shown. Hardly surprising, with adrenaline and all that. They are likely in a state of near-panic. Historically, many of those who fought with blades in a "classical" style were full-time warriors (or martially inclined priests such as Leckuchner) and could develop things to a high level that a modern civilian doesn't have time for and were eventually inured to such adrenaline dumps. So there will be differences: machetes also don't thrust very well, etc. However, look here: It's my friends from Blood and Iron Martial Arts doing single stick fencing (which used to be an Olympic event!) with analysis by Skallagrim:

You can certainly see the parallels, convergent evolution and all that. Or maybe even influence from colonial sailors who might have done singlestick, cutlass or what have you. Might be worth looking into seeing if there actually was a colonial naval influence.

I have no problem believing an effective martial art (or other art) comes out of Latin America. I don't think it was ignored so much as unknown. If you look at Japanese and Filipino blade arts and their spread, they have one thing in common: American military presence through which to spread to the U.S. BJJ spread as early UFC fights were aired in the U.S.: the development of mass media obviated the need for diffusion through military occupation.

The sad thing is, many Filipino martial arts get much more credit in the West than they do in the Philippines, much the way Irish stickfighting and pugilism aren't embraced by the Irish. My first foray in the martial arts was FMA (Arnis de Mano), and that was 30 years ago in ultra-white small-town Canada!

 

[Maching]

"Yes it does happen in the Philippines. My copra climber sliced up his neighbor last year. I use the word slice as his cuts were very precise. He hid on another island but came back and was forgiven after paying the other guys medical expenses. They use blades every single day. The women are just as adept as men. Even kids take bolo to school.

In the first video on the thread with the injury they appear to clashing blades and not actually attacking each other. Looks like Dominican guys don't sharpen blades like Filipino. My blades cleanly slice a 10 inch banana stem in one cut. Filipino tend to use a cut and twist action."

Ok, where is your proof? I have read a lot of claims about the Philippines but have seen nothing to back them up. The fact is if there were videos or proof that sh*t would be publicized to all hell to sell the Filipino blade arts. Did the guy he attacked actually have a sword/knife to defend himself? Sure, anywhere people have blades around a lot, like the Philippines fights will occur sometimes...probably very rarely as there is no proof except internet stories. The difference is in the Dominican they happen constantly and it is part of their culture. It goes back a long way, and they take pride in dueling it out instead of shooting each other if the option is available.

Trust me, they sharpen their blades. Do some research (even the link above) and you will find people getting seriously injured. The videos where people were killed get removed. I found one video of a young man from a neighborhood in the Dominican Republic who had his neck sliced open and they were working on him in the hospital. The cut from the machete looked like it was done by a surgical instrument...you could see the anatomy of the inside of his neck. The guy just laid there, awake and acting like he had stubbed his toe. In the comments they talked about how the people from his neighborhood were skilled fighters and very brave...and this horrific injury didn't even seem to faze him. I don't know if he lived or not.

The whole sharp blade thing...people who actually use their blades know they will get dull from use. The Dominicans carry the things all over and use them for everything from butchering to carpentry. They sharpen them of course but it would be impossible to keep them razor sharp all of the time with how they use them. That is one reason they are so damn skilled with them....they actually use them. All the time.

 

[Maching]

"You can certainly see the parallels, convergent evolution and all that. Or maybe even influence from colonial sailors who might have done singlestick, cutlass or what have you. Might be worth looking into seeing if there actually was a colonial naval influence.

I have no problem believing an effective martial art (or other art) comes out of Latin America. I don't think it was ignored so much as unknown. If you look at Japanese and Filipino blade arts and their spread, they have one thing in common: American military presence through which to spread to the U.S. BJJ spread as early UFC fights were aired in the U.S.: the development of mass media obviated the need for diffusion through military occupation.

The sad thing is, many Filipino martial arts get much more credit in the West than they do in the Philippines, much the way Irish stickfighting and pugilism aren't embraced by the Irish. My first foray in the martial arts was FMA (Arnis de Mano), and that was 30 years ago in ultra-white small-town Canada!"

Interesting video and what you pointed out is interesting as well. Times are definitely changing and technology like the cell phone camera makes everything more clear and to the point. Everyone in the world has cell phones with cameras now, even in 3rd world countries.

 

[Hyoho]

"Yes it does happen in the Philippines. My copra climber sliced up his neighbor last year. I use the word slice as his cuts were very precise. He hid on another island but came back and was forgiven after paying the other guys medical expenses. They use blades every single day. The women are just as adept as men. Even kids take bolo to school.

In the first video on the thread with the injury they appear to clashing blades and not actually attacking each other. Looks like Dominican guys don't sharpen blades like Filipino. My blades cleanly slice a 10 inch banana stem in one cut. Filipino tend to use a cut and twist action."

Ok, where is your proof? I have read a lot of claims about the Philippines but have seen nothing to back them up. The fact is if there were videos or proof that sh*t would be publicized to all hell to sell the Filipino blade arts. Did the guy he attacked actually have a sword/knife to defend himself? Sure, anywhere people have blades around a lot, like the Philippines fights will occur sometimes...probably very rarely as there is no proof except internet stories. The difference is in the Dominican they happen constantly and it is part of their culture. It goes back a long way, and they take pride in dueling it out instead of shooting each other if the option is available.

ROFLMAO proof? How about five stacks of files and a seven year backlog of crimes sitting on the court office? Not all violence with blades but "This is the Philippines". Only last week I saw a blade fight on the road outside the market opposite the police station. And NO, I don't YouTube this for proof. I really get sick to death of silly YouTubes to prove a point. I'm talking about 'reality'. That's the society here.

Locally its quite Three cousins stabbed another one 23 times a while back. They threw bombs in the two inter-island buses down the mountain and shot the two drivers. It costs P10,000 (USD 223) here to have someone killed. Life is cheap. Normally they just play a lot of bingo and get very drunk. We ALL carry blades unless we are going shopping. With cobras wandering all over the jungle it would be suicidal not too. Here a blade is an agricultural tool and something we could use to defend ourselves if necessary. But with locals its more of not losing face and proving a point that gets them going.

As to sharpening a half sharpened blade does far more damage as the serrated edge saws in.

 

[Maching]

"ROFLMAO proof? How about five stacks of files and a seven year backlog of crimes sitting on the court office? Not all violence with blades but "This is the Philippines". Only last week I saw a blade fight on the road outside the market opposite the police station. And NO, I don't YouTube this for proof. I really get sick to death of silly YouTubes to prove a point. I'm talking about 'reality'. That's the society here.

Locally its quite Three cousins stabbed another one 23 times a while back. They threw bombs in the two inter-island buses down the mountain and shot the two drivers. It costs P10,000 (USD 223) here to have someone killed. Life is cheap. Normally they just play a lot of bingo and get very drunk. We ALL carry blades unless we are going shopping. With cobras wandering all over the jungle it would be suicidal not too. Here a blade is an agricultural tool and something we could use to defend ourselves if necessary. But with locals its more of not losing face and proving a point that gets them going.

As to sharpening a half sharpened blade does far more damage as the serrated edge saws in."

Interesting to know. I think most 3rd world countries deal with a lot violence due to the poverty etc. Honestly, I am more interested in the sword fighting angle. Knife fights are obviously more common around the world. Hell, want to find some great knife fighters look no further than prisons in the US. They are always stabbing each other up in those places.

As far as the sword fighting (with machetes)...I haven't seen proof of that anywhere else like these Dominican Fighters. Yes, again it might happen once in awhile in other places. But, as far as dueling...one person with a sword going toe-to-toe with another person with a sword trying to kill one another...it is insane to me how often it happens in the Dominican Republic and there is more than enough proof to back it up. It's like stepping back in time or something and I can't believe they still do it.

 

[Hyoho]

So what you are saying is that Dominican Machete is an art form of prowess? Isn't Dominica also a third world country?

When you carry and use a blade six days a week your ability improves the same as being in a training hall. You dont have to go hand to hand to improve cutting skills. The only difference is when faced with an opponent they move and cut back.

Add to this natural fighting ability. We do MA because we enjoy it and not all are good at it. Likewise there are many that never do MA that are good fighters. I should add that FMA is included in UNI PhysEd. along with Aikido, Judo Karate etc

I don't do FMA but seeing the ability of guys here every day who can not only handle one but two blades at once. I have great respect for them. Looking back at Lapu Lapu they certainly managed to defend their country. Living in the Philippines is also a time slip. The guy below balances and cuts.

 

[Maching]

"So what you are saying is that Dominican Machete is an art form of prowess? Isn't Dominica also a third world country?"

Dominica is a different country. Common mistake, these fighters are from the Dominican Republic...it is a totally different place. Also, a lot of people bring up the Haiti machete fighting thing...again that is a totally different country. The Dominican Republic and Haiti share the same island and are neighbors....but they are very different cultures and the machete styles appear very different (at least to me, I'm no expert though). There is a long history of conflict between Haiti and the DR (Dominican Republic).

Looking at it, it seems the Dominican Republic and Philippines have a lot in common....tropical climate, third world countries etc. Both cultures use blades all the time in daily life. Also, both countries used blades in their history to successfully defend their people (from what I gather at least).

Would be interesting to see a Filipino blade master and a Dominican blade expert share their arts. Who knows, might have a lot in common.

 

[Maching]

Also, someone brought up medical care etc. As far as I know, medical care there is not very good unless you are rich. Also, there is no 911...well there might be but the police and/or an ambulance won't show up for a few days if they show up at all. That's what I've been told by people who lived there.

 

[Hyoho]

Dominica and the Philippines have more than just a little in common. The Spanish, Catholics and corruption. Which is why they are still in the dark ages.

 

[Maching]

"Dominica and the Philippines have more than just a little in common. The Spanish, Catholics and corruption. Which is why they are still in the dark ages."

Interesting point. Can't argue with that. I am sure the Spanish influence from back in the day has bled into the blade skills of today as well...even if the Dominican Republic and Philippines have developed their own styles.

 

[WaterGal]

I saw a documentary a couple years ago about the history of kung fu in the African-American community, and they did have a guy talking about Afro-Carribean machete fighting. I think he said it had its origins in traditional African fighting techniques that were brought over by slaves, but I might be misremembering it.